Guest guest Posted May 20, 1999 Report Share Posted May 20, 1999 "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote: > [Text 2333545 from COM] > > Here is an interesting text which shows that physical presence of a guru is > required for diksa. I asked Hari Sauri Prabhu if I could forward it to this > conference. > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > Text COM:2326825 (199 lines) > Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP > BG shows physical presence is required > --------------------------- > > ...Again I repeat, there are no > examples of diksa being given by a guru who has departed his physical form. > BG gives evidence that even a liberated soul like Arjuna is affected by loss > of memory due to a change of physical body and must therefore reestablish > his connection with guru in his current body. > > Furthermore there is no other example of diksha ever having been > given by a guru who has already departed his body. > > So on the basis of actual examples to support my case and no > examples to support the ritvik case, I will leave it to others to decide who > is conncocting what.... > Your humble servant, > Hari-sauri dasa > (Text COM:2326825) -------- Thank you for your clear-headed exposition, Hari Sauri prabhu. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > > > "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote: > > > [Text 2333545 from COM] > > > > Here is an interesting text which shows that physical presence of a guru is > > required for diksa. I asked Hari Sauri Prabhu if I could forward it to this > > conference. > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > > > Text COM:2326825 (199 lines) > > Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP > > BG shows physical presence is required > > --------------------------- > > ...Again I repeat, there are no > > examples of diksa being given by a guru who has departed his physical form. > > BG gives evidence that even a liberated soul like Arjuna is affected by loss > > of memory due to a change of physical body and must therefore reestablish > > his connection with guru in his current body. > > > > Furthermore there is no other example of diksha ever having been > > given by a guru who has already departed his body. I also accept it as a general rule that the guru (and disciple) must be physically present for diksa to take place, but as they say, the exception proves the rule. Didn't Srila Bhaktisiddhanta accept formal diksa form a picture of his guru. That's what I have heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 1999 Report Share Posted May 30, 1999 Dear Prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP Could you please remove me from your reply list. ys Gaura Keshava dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 1999 Report Share Posted May 30, 1999 On 30 May 1999, Bhaktarupa das wrote: > I found your original statement distasteful because it seems to be > forgetting that in spite of all our neglect of Srila Prabhupada's many > instructions on varnasrama and other areas of management, that ISKCON > devotees chant the Hare Krishna Mahamantra and avoid gross sinful > activities, and there doesn't seem to be any sign that these principles are > changing. And the Hare Krishna Mahamantra is so powerful that it will > eventually overcome all obstacles, provided we don't give it up. Thus you > may be able to say so many things, but you cannot say that our deity worship > and diksa ceremonies are totally useless, which is what "offering oblations > into ashes" means, as they both are saturated with the holy name. This is nice sentiment and I love the Deities also. But it is NOT Srila Prabhupada's prescribed program. Until we accept this fact we will continue to experience the current and on-going chaos. Certainly you cannot say that the movement has increased in numbers or influence at the same level as when Srila Pranhupada was leading? We MUST admit our weaknesses or we cannot move forward what to speak of jump-starting this movement to get back on track. So many "nice" things are going on I do not deny or fail to see this. But ESSENTIAL instructions have been neglected. Fundamental organizational management paradigms inaugurated by Srila Prabhupada himself just before he departed from this world - varnasrama-dharma, dividing and training every new and existing member of this movement into four daiva varnas. Asrama will come later. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur said when we see high-court judges who are devotees with tilaka then we can know that the Krsna consciousness movement is being successful. Do we really think that will ever be possible without implementing varnasrama-dharma and the requisite training of all classes? Get real! We are moving in the opposite direction of realizing devotees of ISKCON as high court judges, in my opinion. > We should all pray to Krishna that he will bless us that we will be able to > give up our quarrelling spirit and take shelter of the holy name for the > solution to all of our problems. > > Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das Nice sentiment again, but Srila Prabhupada had a bit more specific ideas in mind than that: Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not ksatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krsna..., preaching Krsna consciousness. It must be done. Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant. Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man. Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant? Prabhupada: Hm? Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting. Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant? Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That's the easiest. Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada... Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy. Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible. Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop. Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that. Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible. Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also. Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and... Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community? Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. This will solve any problems we are fortunate enough to be able to solve. Let's give it a try since it's been over 25 years since Srila Prabhupada "suggested" it. Maybe its a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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