Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 > > > For myself, I do secretarial work for a professor, but she is not a > > devotee either. For either Janesvara or myself to use our occupations > > to serve the Lord, the main way that we can do it is by karma-yoga. > > > I am in agreement with this but I think some additional scriptural > references would be helpful to elaborate on the idea: > > In my opinion, for a devotee, karma-yoga is the same thing as bhakti-yoga. The examples you provided are the case of karma-yoga executed in pure Krsna consciousness, thus being non-different from the devotional service: > "Service for the cause of the Lord is called karma-yoga or > buddhi-yoga, or in plain words, devotional service to the Lord." > Bhagavad-gita 2.51 Still, there is something that is called "bhakti-yoga" and something that is called "karma-yoga" In the BG (5.2) Krsna states: "The renunciation of work and work in devotion are both good for liberation. But, of the two, work in devotional service is better than renunciation of work." However, simply having a job in some company, for the sake of getting the pay-check that would provide me with the ability to pay off my bills (flat, food, car, el, cloth, parking tickets, a pizza-pie, much more, ...) we couldn't really call "sevice for the cause of the Lord" nor "the renunciation of work" either. But, by renouncing the portion of the fruit of our work (our hard-earned money), as HKdd suggested, we are coming closer to the "renunciation of work", that is technically called karma-yoga. Personally, I would rather consider this (giving some of our money in supporting preaching of KC) to be falling into the category of "sacrificing the fruits of one's work for the spiritual cause". But I wouldn't "nail it on the wall". It all, again, may differ from an individual to another, depending on one's motivation and consciousness. The example of Kolaveca-sridhar is there also. And Bhaktivinode Thakura also had a job in the "karmi society", just like many of us, right? > > While I would much prefer to be practicing and performing my duty directly > in the society of varnasrama-dharma devotees I am not the director of the > material nature and thus I will do my duty as the will of Providence has > directed. There is no need for anyone to give up their duty as they were > destined to perform; it is a matter of change of heart alone. What HKdd is saying here, in the most bottom line, is: "We need to perform our occupational duties in the daivi varnasrama type of society in order to enhance our spiritual advancement." And what you are replaying on, basically (as I see it, not your original words): "Not required. Though varnasrama would be preferable, to stay employed in the present ugra-karma materialistic society is no problem. That is what we have been given to by God, it is our prescribed duty, so we got no need to change it, but only our hearts alone." The question is, then what varnasrama-dharma are you advocating anyway? You are counting years, months, days and hours that the same has not be implemented in ISCKON, getting on the case of others, but on the bottom line you disclose to us how you yourself don't really need it. You have provided yourself with the means of maintenance, and all you feel the need for is the change of the heart alone. Without being engaged in the performance of specific prescribed duties as per your varna and asrama, under the guidance of an authority within the structure of varna-asrama system. No acceptance of particular responsibilities (apart the responsibility of providing oneself with the required means). > Bhismadeva > was on the "wrong" side though a pure devotee. One of my worshipful > deities, Sri Vivasvan Hiranmaya, whom I worship with prayers and > obeisances every morning, performs his duty perfectly with no dampening > effect on his pure devotion though he sheds his merciful heat and light on > demon and devotee pursuits equally. > Maybe there are more differences here than similarities. Bhismadeva was the great Grandfather of the Kuru dynasty. That was "his side". Our employers are not our grand-grandsons, nor the companies we work for to get the pay-checks are really our dinasties in the varnasrama orginized society. Comparing the position of Sun-god and our position, in term of serving the "same side"??? He is one of the most important Deities in the charge of running the Universe, executing it under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in the "company" with other demigods, the devotees of Visnu. And we? Going to job from 7.30 till 15.30, on the assembling line of "Microchip". Or whatever. The Son-god (nor any other Demigod) definitely does not need varnasrama system in order to get the chance to perform his duty properly. But the small insignificant humans on the assembly line of some "Microschip" might be the right candidates for it. > > > I DO NOT disagree with Mataji, but I think it wise to keep things clear > lest the oft-ISKCON-practiced "give up distasteful duties and pretend I am > a brahmana" consciousness will continue to erode the varna society. I have not noticed anything of a kind in HKdd's text that would demand this emphasizing the need for such a clearance. She suggested the execution of our prescribed duties within the frame of daiva-varnasrama society, to be employed in the service to/under *devotees* of the Lord, rather than the payed service under materialists (regardless of how nice they might be). And you objected it (though you said you agreed with her) by explaing hoe there is no dumping effect to our spiritual advancement when we are employed within this present ugra-karma society, so no need for what she proposed (though preferable, yes). Are we now in the situation to preach to Janesvara prabhu the importance and the need for re-establishing the varnasrama system in this world? -------------------------- That what you are referring with in your above statement(s) would be rather the case of our being advised to remain honest: "Better to be a honest sweeper on the street than a renounciate-pretender." However, we ought to be aware that this is not supposed to mean "It is just fine to remain a sweeper on the street, don't go changing your destiny". There is a verse in the BG where Krsna speaks about this situation: "So as to not disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit of devotion, he should engage them in all sort of activities [for the gradual development of Krsna consciousness]" (BG 3.26) In the purport, Prabhupada explains: "The learned Krsna conscious person may act in such a way that the ignorant person working for the sense gratification may learn how to act and how to behave. Although the ignorant man is not to be disturbed in his activities, a slightly developed Krsna consciousness person may directly be engaged in the service of the Lord without waiting for other Vedic formulas. For this fortunate man there is no need to follow the Vedic rituals, because by direct Krsna consciousness one can have all the results one would otherwise derive from following one's prescribed duties." So let's examine carefully the type of our activities/jobs and compare it with the above descriptions. But then, yes, the possibility of our getting disturbed might be there. On the other hand, I certainly am not one of those "learned Krsna conscious persons" as mentioned above, so I am simply quoting Bhagavd-gita without much of consideration for the type of effect. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 > When we get paid, we > can > offer some money to further the mission of Krsna consciousness. Ideally, we > remember Krsna as much as we can while we are working, but the fact that the > work we are doing for our livelyhoods does not directly support the spread of > Krsna consciousness has a dampening effect on our Krsna consciousness. Yet if these donations were going into an endowment that devotee trustees were managing (ksatriyas) to create an economic base to subsidize farmers to protect cows and produce foodstuffs for devotees (vaisyas), then everyone could be enlivened that they were helping to build varnashram. The vaisyas would need goods and services that would stimulate demand that other devotees could fill, creating jobs (for sudras) and some excess that could be used to support brahmanas. > > > How would it be different in a varnasrama society? In a varnasrama society, we > would both be serving devotees and what's more we would be serving them in ways > that were more tangibly linked to maintaining a Krsna conscious society. > > One point to remember is that although Srila Prabhupada explains that in > varnasrama, every varna is independent except for the sudras -- still every > individual in society is serving other devotees. Srila Prabhupada personally > gave the example by serving devotees in many ways -- even though he was the > topmost devotee in our society. Of course, one of his most important services > to us was to write many books. That was his service to us whom he viewed as > devotees and simultaneously, it was bhakti-yoga his loving devotional service > to > Krsna. So even the brahmana is serving the devotees. > > So in a varnasrama society, we would see that the blacksmith is making a plow > to > serve a farmer. He is happy to use his skills to please the farmer because of > a > personal affection he has for the farmer, because they share their experiences > in worshipping Krsna. The farmer is happy to use his skills to grow grains, > one > quarter of which he will offer to the ksatriya of the village. He is happy to > serve that ksatriya because he knows that the ksatriya is a saintly devotee of > Krsna who appreciates his hard work and always is careful to protect him and to > maintain harmony in the village. The ksatriya uses his skills to create a > harmonious village which will be the ideal preaching field for the brahmana. > He > is happy to use his skills in this way because he loves the saintly brahmana > and > he knows that love is reciprocated (bhakti-karya relationships, as Prabhupada > describes in the third canto). The brahmana, although he is the social head of > the village, actually considers himself to be the servant of all the members of > the village because he sees them as many-flavored devotees of Krsna. > > So in this way, the third principle -- serving Krsna by our occupational duty, > and according to our individual nature is observed. But the way we serve Krsna > is principally by serving his devotee. And naturally, that expands beyond just > the varnas. The wife serves her husband with love, because the husband is a > servant of Krsna. The cowherd serves the cow with love, because the cow is a > servant of Krsna. > > As far as principle 1, society really is harmoniously organized for the > pleasure > of Krsna. As far as principle 2, when people are engaged harnessing their > natural ability in Krsna's service, they become expert in it, and they are > well-appreciated in society. When society is properly organized according to > varnasrama, then everyone actually is happy -- they don't need to be convinced > that they are happy. > > So, at least this is how ISKCON's evolution into the varnasrama society that > Srila Prabhupada envisioned for us, as compared to our early pioneer days at > the > beginning of the movement. > > your servant, > > Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 At 23:24 -0800 6/1/99, COM: Gunamani (dd) ARD (Arhus - DK) wrote: > I could continue but then it will be too long, the point is: simply >thinking and acting as a devotee, aware of peoples stand, not fanatical, is >preaching/bhakti-yoga? in itself, of course with qualitative differences, in >the long run it might prove quite substantial. We will see. Thanks for sharing your experiences. This is definitely what I missed when I first "joined" ISKCON. There were no models, so I felt like I was making it up as I went along. > I would like to hear more about how others handle their situations as >devotees, while living in a material society. > Can you see any future in it? Since I never lived in a temple and never have any full time ISKCON service, this has been exactly what I have done too. Although I wish I could serve in more substantial ways some day, I agree with you that simply living openly as devotees, showing others that you can be a devotee of Krsna and still function in regular society can make an impact. And it definitely goes beyond simply wearing beads and having people ask about that (which they inevitably do, at teh grocery store, post office etc.) My children have always gone to non-devotee schools (both public schools and private Montessori schools). All their friends know they are Vaisnavas. It's given my children the opportunity to talk with their friends about vegetarianism, bring in prasadam, share their holidays and history (we bring their friends to Ratha Yatra, lend the schools various videotapes, e.g. on the Ramayana etc). Both my children are good students, good athletes and have served on their student councils (elevråd in Swedish). To their friends and teachers, this has "normalized" ISKCON and ISKCON devotees and they have learned that we're no more odd than practitioners of other faiths and can be successful by their standards too. In terms of my circle of friends and colleagues, I'm also very open about being a devotee. I have a huge poster of Lord Jagannatha over my desk, other pictures in my office too and sometimes I play devotional music on my computer while reading. Some people ask about this and about ISKCON and I always answer their questions as honestly as I can. I've been very vocal about the need to have vegetarian options at all work functions (99% of the time, people do it naturally here, but on a couple of occasions they've slipped up and I had to let them know). I've also invited friends and co-workers to festivals and about 20 people from my job came to my fire sacrifice wedding and danced, chanted Hare krsna, and threw grains into the fire. I've been working at the same place for 13 years now and I don't want to make it sound like I did all of this from day one. It probably took about 2 years of gradually becoming more open. People's first reactions were usually: "What, *you're* a Hare Krishna? I thought you were all in the streets and airports." Then they'd become interested and wanted to know if there were many of us who had regular jobs and who lived out in society. In all of these years, I have never had a direct negative reaction from anyone. In fact,people who know me have been surprisingly supportive at times. E.g. when I decided to become initiated, I told a few of my closest co-workers. At first, they were puzzled and asked lots of questions, especially about "no illicit sex". Once I had explained it and said that this was something I wanted to do, one very sweet (gay) man asked: "So would you mind if I threw you a "celibacy party" to celebrate this important step?" :-) How about others out there in cyberspace? Looks like "the fringe" has become mainstream! Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 Thank you Madhusudani Radha and Janesvara Prabhu's, for a short moment you made me feel like I was actually a part of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. I am searching for You between millions of desires getting lost in a ocean of rules while I struggle and pray loosing day after day You are only a breath away Your servant Gunamani d.d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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