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Varnasrama: serving the Lord by serving His devotees

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>

> > For myself, I do secretarial work for a professor, but she is not a

> > devotee either. For either Janesvara or myself to use our occupations

> > to serve the Lord, the main way that we can do it is by karma-yoga.

>

>

> I am in agreement with this but I think some additional scriptural

> references would be helpful to elaborate on the idea:

>

> In my opinion, for a devotee, karma-yoga is the same thing as bhakti-yoga.

 

The examples you provided are the case of karma-yoga executed

in pure Krsna consciousness, thus being non-different from the

devotional service:

 

> "Service for the cause of the Lord is called karma-yoga or

> buddhi-yoga, or in plain words, devotional service to the Lord." >

Bhagavad-gita 2.51

 

 

Still, there is something that is called "bhakti-yoga" and

something that is called "karma-yoga" In the BG (5.2) Krsna

states:

 

"The renunciation of work and work in devotion are both good

for liberation. But, of the two, work in devotional service

is better than renunciation of work."

 

 

However, simply having a job in some company, for the sake of

getting the pay-check that would provide me with the ability

to pay off my bills (flat, food, car, el, cloth, parking

tickets, a pizza-pie, much more, ...) we couldn't really call

"sevice for the cause of the Lord" nor "the renunciation of work"

either. But, by renouncing the portion of the fruit of our work

(our hard-earned money), as HKdd suggested, we are coming closer

to the "renunciation of work", that is technically called karma-yoga.

Personally, I would rather consider this (giving some of our money

in supporting preaching of KC) to be falling into the category of

"sacrificing the fruits of one's work for the spiritual cause".

 

But I wouldn't "nail it on the wall". It all, again, may differ

from an individual to another, depending on one's motivation and

consciousness. The example of Kolaveca-sridhar is there also.

And Bhaktivinode Thakura also had a job in the "karmi society",

just like many of us, right?

 

 

 

>

> While I would much prefer to be practicing and performing my duty directly

> in the society of varnasrama-dharma devotees I am not the director of the

> material nature and thus I will do my duty as the will of Providence has

> directed. There is no need for anyone to give up their duty as they were

> destined to perform; it is a matter of change of heart alone.

 

What HKdd is saying here, in the most bottom line, is:

"We need to perform our occupational duties in the daivi varnasrama

type of society in order to enhance our spiritual advancement."

 

And what you are replaying on, basically (as I see it, not your

original words):

"Not required. Though varnasrama would be preferable, to stay

employed in the present ugra-karma materialistic society is no

problem. That is what we have been given to by God, it is our

prescribed duty, so we got no need to change it, but only our

hearts alone."

 

The question is, then what varnasrama-dharma are you advocating

anyway? You are counting years, months, days and hours that the

same has not be implemented in ISCKON, getting on the case of

others, but on the bottom line you disclose to us how you yourself

don't really need it. You have provided yourself with the means

of maintenance, and all you feel the need for is the change of

the heart alone. Without being engaged in the performance of

specific prescribed duties as per your varna and asrama, under

the guidance of an authority within the structure of varna-asrama

system. No acceptance of particular responsibilities (apart the

responsibility of providing oneself with the required means).

 

 

 

> Bhismadeva

> was on the "wrong" side though a pure devotee. One of my worshipful

> deities, Sri Vivasvan Hiranmaya, whom I worship with prayers and

> obeisances every morning, performs his duty perfectly with no dampening

> effect on his pure devotion though he sheds his merciful heat and light on

> demon and devotee pursuits equally.

>

 

Maybe there are more differences here than similarities.

 

Bhismadeva was the great Grandfather of the Kuru dynasty. That

was "his side". Our employers are not our grand-grandsons, nor

the companies we work for to get the pay-checks are really our

dinasties in the varnasrama orginized society.

 

Comparing the position of Sun-god and our position, in term of

serving the "same side"??? He is one of the most important

Deities in the charge of running the Universe, executing it under

the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in the "company"

with other demigods, the devotees of Visnu. And we? Going to

job from 7.30 till 15.30, on the assembling line of "Microchip".

Or whatever.

 

The Son-god (nor any other Demigod) definitely does not need

varnasrama system in order to get the chance to perform his

duty properly. But the small insignificant humans on the assembly

line of some "Microschip" might be the right candidates for it.

 

 

>

>

> I DO NOT disagree with Mataji, but I think it wise to keep things clear

> lest the oft-ISKCON-practiced "give up distasteful duties and pretend I am

> a brahmana" consciousness will continue to erode the varna society.

 

I have not noticed anything of a kind in HKdd's text that would

demand this emphasizing the need for such a clearance.

 

She suggested the execution of our prescribed duties within

the frame of daiva-varnasrama society, to be employed in the

service to/under *devotees* of the Lord, rather than the

payed service under materialists (regardless of how nice they might

be). And you objected it (though you said you agreed with her) by

explaing hoe there is no dumping effect to our spiritual advancement

when we are employed within this present ugra-karma society, so no

need for what she proposed (though preferable, yes).

 

Are we now in the situation to preach to Janesvara prabhu the

importance and the need for re-establishing the varnasrama system

in this world? ;)

 

 

--------------------------

 

That what you are referring with in your above statement(s) would

be rather the case of our being advised to remain honest: "Better

to be a honest sweeper on the street than a renounciate-pretender."

However, we ought to be aware that this is not supposed to mean

"It is just fine to remain a sweeper on the street, don't go

changing your destiny". There is a verse in the BG where

Krsna speaks about this situation:

 

 

"So as to not disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the

fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should

not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit

of devotion, he should engage them in all sort of activities

[for the gradual development of Krsna consciousness]"

(BG 3.26)

 

In the purport, Prabhupada explains:

 

"The learned Krsna conscious person may act in such a way

that the ignorant person working for the sense gratification

may learn how to act and how to behave. Although the ignorant

man is not to be disturbed in his activities, a slightly

developed Krsna consciousness person may directly be engaged

in the service of the Lord without waiting for other Vedic

formulas. For this fortunate man there is no need to follow

the Vedic rituals, because by direct Krsna consciousness one

can have all the results one would otherwise derive from

following one's prescribed duties."

 

 

So let's examine carefully the type of our activities/jobs

and compare it with the above descriptions. But then, yes, the

possibility of our getting disturbed might be there. On the other

hand, I certainly am not one of those "learned Krsna conscious

persons" as mentioned above, so I am simply quoting Bhagavd-gita

without much of consideration for the type of effect. ;)

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

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> When we get paid, we

> can

> offer some money to further the mission of Krsna consciousness. Ideally, we

> remember Krsna as much as we can while we are working, but the fact that the

> work we are doing for our livelyhoods does not directly support the spread of

> Krsna consciousness has a dampening effect on our Krsna consciousness.

 

Yet if these donations were going into an endowment that devotee trustees were

managing (ksatriyas) to create an economic base to subsidize farmers to protect

cows and produce foodstuffs for devotees (vaisyas), then everyone could be

enlivened that they were helping to build varnashram. The vaisyas would need

goods

and services that would stimulate demand that other devotees could fill,

creating

jobs (for sudras) and some excess that could be used to support brahmanas.

 

>

>

> How would it be different in a varnasrama society? In a varnasrama society,

we

> would both be serving devotees and what's more we would be serving them in

ways

> that were more tangibly linked to maintaining a Krsna conscious society.

>

> One point to remember is that although Srila Prabhupada explains that in

> varnasrama, every varna is independent except for the sudras -- still every

> individual in society is serving other devotees. Srila Prabhupada personally

> gave the example by serving devotees in many ways -- even though he was the

> topmost devotee in our society. Of course, one of his most important

services

> to us was to write many books. That was his service to us whom he viewed as

> devotees and simultaneously, it was bhakti-yoga his loving devotional service

> to

> Krsna. So even the brahmana is serving the devotees.

>

> So in a varnasrama society, we would see that the blacksmith is making a plow

> to

> serve a farmer. He is happy to use his skills to please the farmer because

of

> a

> personal affection he has for the farmer, because they share their

experiences

> in worshipping Krsna. The farmer is happy to use his skills to grow grains,

> one

> quarter of which he will offer to the ksatriya of the village. He is happy

to

> serve that ksatriya because he knows that the ksatriya is a saintly devotee

of

> Krsna who appreciates his hard work and always is careful to protect him and

to

> maintain harmony in the village. The ksatriya uses his skills to create a

> harmonious village which will be the ideal preaching field for the brahmana.

> He

> is happy to use his skills in this way because he loves the saintly brahmana

> and

> he knows that love is reciprocated (bhakti-karya relationships, as Prabhupada

> describes in the third canto). The brahmana, although he is the social head

of

> the village, actually considers himself to be the servant of all the members

of

> the village because he sees them as many-flavored devotees of Krsna.

>

> So in this way, the third principle -- serving Krsna by our occupational

duty,

> and according to our individual nature is observed. But the way we serve

Krsna

> is principally by serving his devotee. And naturally, that expands beyond

just

> the varnas. The wife serves her husband with love, because the husband is a

> servant of Krsna. The cowherd serves the cow with love, because the cow is a

> servant of Krsna.

>

> As far as principle 1, society really is harmoniously organized for the

> pleasure

> of Krsna. As far as principle 2, when people are engaged harnessing their

> natural ability in Krsna's service, they become expert in it, and they are

> well-appreciated in society. When society is properly organized according to

> varnasrama, then everyone actually is happy -- they don't need to be

convinced

> that they are happy.

>

> So, at least this is how ISKCON's evolution into the varnasrama society that

> Srila Prabhupada envisioned for us, as compared to our early pioneer days at

> the

> beginning of the movement.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

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At 23:24 -0800 6/1/99, COM: Gunamani (dd) ARD (Arhus - DK) wrote:

 

> I could continue but then it will be too long, the point is: simply

>thinking and acting as a devotee, aware of peoples stand, not fanatical, is

>preaching/bhakti-yoga? in itself, of course with qualitative differences, in

>the long run it might prove quite substantial. We will see.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences. This is definitely what I missed when

I first "joined" ISKCON. There were no models, so I felt like I was making

it up as I went along.

 

> I would like to hear more about how others handle their situations as

>devotees, while living in a material society.

> Can you see any future in it?

 

Since I never lived in a temple and never have any full time ISKCON

service, this has been exactly what I have done too. Although I wish I

could serve in more substantial ways some day, I agree with you that simply

living openly as devotees, showing others that you can be a devotee of

Krsna and still function in regular society can make an impact. And it

definitely goes beyond simply wearing beads and having people ask about

that (which they inevitably do, at teh grocery store, post office etc.)

 

My children have always gone to non-devotee schools (both public schools

and private Montessori schools). All their friends know they are Vaisnavas.

It's given my children the opportunity to talk with their friends about

vegetarianism, bring in prasadam, share their holidays and history (we

bring their friends to Ratha Yatra, lend the schools various videotapes,

e.g. on the Ramayana etc). Both my children are good students, good

athletes and have served on their student councils (elevråd in Swedish).

To their friends and teachers, this has "normalized" ISKCON and ISKCON

devotees and they have learned that we're no more odd than practitioners of

other faiths and can be successful by their standards too.

 

In terms of my circle of friends and colleagues, I'm also very open about

being a devotee. I have a huge poster of Lord Jagannatha over my desk,

other pictures in my office too and sometimes I play devotional music on my

computer while reading. Some people ask about this and about ISKCON and I

always answer their questions as honestly as I can. I've been very vocal

about the need to have vegetarian options at all work functions (99% of the

time, people do it naturally here, but on a couple of occasions they've

slipped up and I had to let them know). I've also invited friends and

co-workers to festivals and about 20 people from my job came to my fire

sacrifice wedding and danced, chanted Hare krsna, and threw grains into

the fire.

 

I've been working at the same place for 13 years now and I don't want to

make it sound like I did all of this from day one. It probably took about

2 years of gradually becoming more open. People's first reactions were

usually: "What, *you're* a Hare Krishna? I thought you were all in the

streets and airports." Then they'd become interested and wanted to know

if there were many of us who had regular jobs and who lived out in society.

In all of these years, I have never had a direct negative reaction from

anyone. In fact,people who know me have been surprisingly supportive at

times. E.g. when I decided to become initiated, I told a few of my closest

co-workers. At first, they were puzzled and asked lots of questions,

especially about "no illicit sex". Once I had explained it and said that

this was something I wanted to do, one very sweet (gay) man asked: "So

would you mind if I threw you a "celibacy party" to celebrate this

important step?"

 

:-)

 

How about others out there in cyberspace? Looks like "the fringe" has

become mainstream!

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

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Thank you Madhusudani Radha and Janesvara Prabhu's, for a short moment you

made me feel like I was actually a part of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON.

 

I am searching for You between millions of desires

getting lost in a ocean of rules

while I struggle and pray

loosing day after day

 

You are only a breath away

 

 

Your servant Gunamani d.d.

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