Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 Robert Cope wrote: > [Text 2367633 from COM] > > >Further, in defense of Hare Krsna dd's footnote idea (I do not agree with > the > >changes, but she is not alone in this idea) there is the following from > >Hridayananda M.: > I know she is not alone in her ideas and that is what is a bit scary. > > In regards to the quote from Hridayananda Mja. it is difficult to comment > because his reply does not specify what points he is responding to so why > speculate? Hare Krsna dasi comments: To footnote a book does not mean to change the text. In both versions of the Bhagavad-gita As It Is -- Hayagriva's and Jayadvaita Maharaja's -- Srila Prabhupada's words have already been changed -- and *with* his authorization. A footnote to each changed verse would explain why there is a difference between the two versions. Presently, a number of devotees are highly upset because of the changes between the two editors. If an annotated or footnoted version of the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is could be published, readers could be reassured because they could judge for themselves why changes were made between Hayagriva's and Jayadvaita Swami's versions. But, it is not my main purpose in life to crusade for a footnoted or annotated edition of the Bhagavad-gita. But to get to my point, Vyapaka prabhu, it seems futile to continue a discussion with you on this issue. It is like trying to win an argument with a tar baby. In African American folk tales, there is the story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby. The story goes like this: Brer Rabbit was ambling through the woods and he came upon a figure of a man (made of tar) sitting on a log. He said "Hello, how are you?" to the Tar Baby, but the Tar Baby (being only made of tar and not a live person) said nothing. Thinking that the Tar Baby was a little bit deaf, he repeated his greeting, only louder. The Tar Baby said nothing. Again he repeated the greeting. Still the Tar Baby did not acknowledge that he heard anything. He just sat there like a bump on a log. At this point, Brer Rabbit became offended that Tar Baby was so rude that he did not even acknowledge Brer Rabbit's friendly greeting. So he hit the Tar Baby in the face. Unfortunately, his hand got stuck in the tar. "Let go of my hand, Tar Baby, before I hit you again!" yelled Brer Rabbit. But the Tar Baby would not let go. So Brer Rabbit hit him with his other hand. That got stuck also. "Let go of both my hands, or I'll kick you!" yelled Brer Rabbit. But the Tar Baby would not let go. So Brer Rabbit kicked him. His foot got stuck in the tar. Eventually, by trying to defeat the Tar Baby, Brer Rabbit became completely stuck to the Tar Baby -- hands, feet, and head. At this time, Brer Fox and Brer Bear, who had built the Tar Baby just to trap Brer Rabbit, stepped out of the bushes and captured him. (As the story goes, they were talking about boiling up Brer Rabbit and eating him for dinner, but he got away by tricking them into throwing him into a briar patch.) Anyway, the point here is that I have tried to present my case clearly, but just like the Tar Baby, you never actually acknowledge what I am saying. You never really respond to it. Instead, you use a technique like Sita's where you ask more and more questions as a set-up to lure your opponent (for that is what the person is in your mind) into saying something. And, when they make a sincere response, you take it as an opportunity to misconstrue their points, ignoring their real points even further. So, anyone -- like me -- who is gullible enough to engage in this kind of argument is just as foolish as Brer Rabbit trying to win his fight with the Tar Baby. Anyone who is as foolish as Brer Rabbit is in maya. So it is maya for me to continue this exchange with you any further. At this point, I will have to excercize sufficient self-control and delete all your further posts on this subject. To do otherwise would be foolish of me. I now grant you the opportunity to have the final word on how I am trying to lead ISKCON to spiritual ruination by proposing the publication of a footnoted edition of the Bhagavad-gita. -- But could you at least spell Madhusudani Radha's name correctly? yours in Srila Prabhupada's service, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 Hare Krsna dasi wrote: >But to get to my point, Vyapaka prabhu, it seems futile to continue a discussion >with you on this issue. It is like trying to win an argument with a tar baby. >In African American folk tales, there is the story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar >Baby. I won't reproduce the whole text as I am sure the participants in this conference can remember the gripping tale. My only comment on this would be the suggestion to read and quote from Srila Prabhupada's books a little more. >Anyway, the point here is that I have tried to present my case clearly, but just >like the Tar Baby, you never actually acknowledge what I am saying. You never >really respond to it. Instead, you use a technique like Sita's where you ask >more and more questions as a set-up to lure your opponent (for that is what the >person is in your mind) into saying something. And, when they make a sincere >response, you take it as an opportunity to misconstrue their points, ignoring >their real points even further. This is totally inaccurate on your part. On May 29th I asked you to answer several questions in regards to your motivation and thoughts on footnoting. Your answer was contained in May 30th response which stated: >>I cannot afford to spend any more time discussing this topic. I cannot afford to kill my time. (end quote). Is that a sincere response? You then state that I am wasting my time rather than sharing my knowledge on agriculture. By the way, I don't think I am wasting my so-called knowledge on agriculture since I am actually trying to do it rather than talk about it. And yes, I can imagine you would feel threatened about to the point questions regarding issues that you are on thin ice about. >These devotees care nothing at all about my views on footnoting, but they would be >most interested to hear sound advice about farming, and you are qualified to >give it to them. I beg to differ. I have received a lot of feedback from devotees concerned about your and Ma-dhu-su-dha-ni Ra-dha da-si's suggestion of footnoting Prabhupada's books (all negative). Your suggestion that Srila Prabhupada's books are in fact footnotes to previous acarya's books is nothing but lunacy and is offensive. What is the purpose to waste my time passing on agricultural technique to people who are not farming or gardening. I have also stated previously that my time is monopolized by other activities and will be happy to see dealing with your footnoting nonsense over with. Perhaps your time would have been better spent continuing your efforts publishing Hare Krsna Rural Life but you stopped that to do your varnasrama book and to participate on the COM. >So it is maya for me to continue this exchange with you any further. At this point, I will >have to excercize sufficient self-control and delete all your further posts on this >subject. To do otherwise would be foolish of me. Well, I definitely consider that to be a deleterious comment. >I now grant you the opportunity to have the final word on how I am trying to >lead ISKCON to spiritual ruination by proposing the publication of a footnoted >edition of the Bhagavad-gita. -- But could you at least spell Madhusudani >Radha's name correctly? Spelling has never been my strong point. But frankly, I would be very suprised if you or Dr. Ekstrand have the potency to ever get Prabhupada's books footnoted. But at the same time who knows the way things are going? In any event, we can talk more when I take up your invitation to camp for the weekend and discuss varnasrama with all the other devotees. I am really looking forward to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 Hare Krsna dasi wrote: >But to get to my point, Vyapaka prabhu, it seems futile to continue a discussion >with you on this issue. It is like trying to win an argument with a tar baby. >In African American folk tales, there is the story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar >Baby. I won't reproduce the whole text as I am sure the participants in this conference can remember the gripping tale. My only comment on this would be the suggestion to read and quote from Srila Prabhupada's books a little more. >Anyway, the point here is that I have tried to present my case clearly, but just >like the Tar Baby, you never actually acknowledge what I am saying. You never >really respond to it. Instead, you use a technique like Sita's where you ask >more and more questions as a set-up to lure your opponent (for that is what the >person is in your mind) into saying something. And, when they make a sincere >response, you take it as an opportunity to misconstrue their points, ignoring >their real points even further. This is totally inaccurate on your part. On May 29th I asked you to answer several questions in regards to your motivation and thoughts on footnoting. Your answer was contained in May 30th response which stated: >>I cannot afford to spend any more time discussing this topic. I cannot afford to kill my time. (end quote). Is that a sincere response? You then state that I am wasting my time rather than sharing my knowledge on agriculture. By the way, I don't think I am wasting my so-called knowledge on agriculture since I am actually trying to do it rather than talk about it. And yes, I can imagine you would feel threatened about to the point questions regarding issues that you are on thin ice about. >These devotees care nothing at all about my views on footnoting, but they would be >most interested to hear sound advice about farming, and you are qualified to >give it to them. I beg to differ. I have received a lot of feedback from devotees concerned about your and Ma-dhu-su-dha-ni Ra-dha da-si's suggestion of footnoting Prabhupada's books (all negative). Your suggestion that Srila Prabhupada's books are in fact footnotes to previous acarya's books is nothing but lunacy and is offensive. What is the purpose to waste my time passing on agricultural technique to people who are not farming or gardening. I have also stated previously that my time is monopolized by other activities and will be happy to see dealing with your footnoting nonsense over with. Perhaps your time would have been better spent continuing your efforts publishing Hare Krsna Rural Life but you stopped that to do your varnasrama book and to participate on the COM. >So it is maya for me to continue this exchange with you any further. At this point, I will >have to excercize sufficient self-control and delete all your further posts on this >subject. To do otherwise would be foolish of me. Well, I definitely consider that to be a deleterious comment. >I now grant you the opportunity to have the final word on how I am trying to >lead ISKCON to spiritual ruination by proposing the publication of a footnoted >edition of the Bhagavad-gita. -- But could you at least spell Madhusudani >Radha's name correctly? Spelling has never been my strong point. But frankly, I would be very suprised if you or Dr. Ekstrand have the potency to ever get Prabhupada's books footnoted. But at the same time who knows the way things are going? In any event, we can talk more when I take up your invitation to camp for the weekend and discuss varnasrama with all the other devotees. I am really looking forward to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 On 05 Jun 1999, Robert Cope wrote: > Your answer was contained in May 30th response which stated: > >>I cannot afford to spend any more time discussing this topic. I cannot > afford to kill my time. (end quote). > Is that a sincere response? You then state that I am wasting my time rather > than sharing my knowledge on agriculture. By the way, I don't think I am > wasting my so-called knowledge on agriculture since I am actually trying to > do it rather than talk about it. And yes, I can imagine you would feel > threatened about to the point questions regarding issues that you are on > thin ice about. Certainly Vyapaka Prabhu has the right to ask Hare Krsna dasi about her full position on the highly controversial idea of footnoting Srila Prabhupada's books. Just recently Hare Krsna dasi made her very public statement that she felt I was writing like a "ritvik" and that she felt I "should explain myself for everyone on the conference so they could understand my position." I fully did so. She has not acknowledged my explanation. Does this not apply to you also, Mother HK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 On 05 Jun 1999, Robert Cope wrote: > Your answer was contained in May 30th response which stated: > >>I cannot afford to spend any more time discussing this topic. I cannot > afford to kill my time. (end quote). > Is that a sincere response? You then state that I am wasting my time rather > than sharing my knowledge on agriculture. By the way, I don't think I am > wasting my so-called knowledge on agriculture since I am actually trying to > do it rather than talk about it. And yes, I can imagine you would feel > threatened about to the point questions regarding issues that you are on > thin ice about. Certainly Vyapaka Prabhu has the right to ask Hare Krsna dasi about her full position on the highly controversial idea of footnoting Srila Prabhupada's books. Just recently Hare Krsna dasi made her very public statement that she felt I was writing like a "ritvik" and that she felt I "should explain myself for everyone on the conference so they could understand my position." I fully did so. She has not acknowledged my explanation. Does this not apply to you also, Mother HK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 > > I beg to differ. I have received a lot of feedback from devotees concerned > about your and Ma-dhu-su-dha-ni Ra-dha da-si's suggestion of footnoting > Prabhupada's books (all negative). Your suggestion that Srila Prabhupada's > books are in fact footnotes to previous acarya's books is nothing but > lunacy and is offensive. Hare Krsna dd had right in her ascertation that you are simply applying the technique of asking more questions in order just to get something from her to be able to misconstrue the sincere replay into some else, deliberately ignoring the actual point. I have seen her trying to make the point that it is not an offense to give the explanation to the original words of an acarya, without changing the words (and meaning), if done by a qualified person. She gave the example of Srila Prabhupada who did not change words of Krsna and other acaryas, but he *explained* them to the readers for their better understanding. Both a "footnote" to the original words and a "purport" to original words have this in common. HKdd tried to explain how she is not proposing *changing* the words (and their meaning), something what you accused her for. Now, it is you who decided that HKdd meant something like "Prabhupada's books are in fact footnotes to previous acarya's books". And instead of trying first to check up wether she really meant to say something funny like that, you are rather quick enough to abuse whatever reply you can get from her... and somebody here mentioned the word "lunacy"... And "your suggestion of footnoting Prabhupada's books" is a blown up expression, simply meant to mislead the people into wrong direction. You are misconstruing it. So far I have seen here only *two* instance that were felt by MRdd and HKdd that could be added to an additional explanation: the one about women being less intelligent than men, and the other one about women liking to get raped by men. NOT the suggestion that Prabhupada's *books* (in their totality) need to get "footnoted" (or "nosenoted" or whatever). As the terrible ISCKON record shows, so many SCKON women have been abused on the various way (some even *raped*!) by the side of ISCKON men (most often those in the position of authorities). You know what? Prabhupada said that women are less intelligent (read stupid) and that they like to get raped. Many of us definitely would need an additional explanation and decisive explanation of what Prabhupada meant. You yourself have just recently grossly abused here an another devotee, on base of what you read in Prabhupada's books. And you continue abusing these two ladies for their honest belief and initiative that something is to be done to curb down this madness of humiliating and abusing women in ISCKON. If they think that an additional explanation in the mentioned instances might be of some help here, then you got really no sane reason to become mad on them because of it, and go on and on attacking them and misconstruing their "lunacy" by hook or crook. Usually it is rather the case that, if the lunacy is found there where it isn't, then the lunacy is ..... .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 > > I beg to differ. I have received a lot of feedback from devotees concerned > about your and Ma-dhu-su-dha-ni Ra-dha da-si's suggestion of footnoting > Prabhupada's books (all negative). Your suggestion that Srila Prabhupada's > books are in fact footnotes to previous acarya's books is nothing but > lunacy and is offensive. Hare Krsna dd had right in her ascertation that you are simply applying the technique of asking more questions in order just to get something from her to be able to misconstrue the sincere replay into some else, deliberately ignoring the actual point. I have seen her trying to make the point that it is not an offense to give the explanation to the original words of an acarya, without changing the words (and meaning), if done by a qualified person. She gave the example of Srila Prabhupada who did not change words of Krsna and other acaryas, but he *explained* them to the readers for their better understanding. Both a "footnote" to the original words and a "purport" to original words have this in common. HKdd tried to explain how she is not proposing *changing* the words (and their meaning), something what you accused her for. Now, it is you who decided that HKdd meant something like "Prabhupada's books are in fact footnotes to previous acarya's books". And instead of trying first to check up wether she really meant to say something funny like that, you are rather quick enough to abuse whatever reply you can get from her... and somebody here mentioned the word "lunacy"... And "your suggestion of footnoting Prabhupada's books" is a blown up expression, simply meant to mislead the people into wrong direction. You are misconstruing it. So far I have seen here only *two* instance that were felt by MRdd and HKdd that could be added to an additional explanation: the one about women being less intelligent than men, and the other one about women liking to get raped by men. NOT the suggestion that Prabhupada's *books* (in their totality) need to get "footnoted" (or "nosenoted" or whatever). As the terrible ISCKON record shows, so many SCKON women have been abused on the various way (some even *raped*!) by the side of ISCKON men (most often those in the position of authorities). You know what? Prabhupada said that women are less intelligent (read stupid) and that they like to get raped. Many of us definitely would need an additional explanation and decisive explanation of what Prabhupada meant. You yourself have just recently grossly abused here an another devotee, on base of what you read in Prabhupada's books. And you continue abusing these two ladies for their honest belief and initiative that something is to be done to curb down this madness of humiliating and abusing women in ISCKON. If they think that an additional explanation in the mentioned instances might be of some help here, then you got really no sane reason to become mad on them because of it, and go on and on attacking them and misconstruing their "lunacy" by hook or crook. Usually it is rather the case that, if the lunacy is found there where it isn't, then the lunacy is ..... .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 > In any event, we can talk more when I take up your invitation to camp for > the weekend and discuss varnasrama with all the other devotees. I am > really looking forward to it. You´ll pay visit to a person you´ve just spend words as nonsense, offensive and lunatic on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 > In any event, we can talk more when I take up your invitation to camp for > the weekend and discuss varnasrama with all the other devotees. I am > really looking forward to it. You´ll pay visit to a person you´ve just spend words as nonsense, offensive and lunatic on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 > >In African American folk tales, there is the story of Brer Rabbit and the > Tar > >Baby. > I won't reproduce the whole text as I am sure the participants in this > conference can remember the gripping tale. My only comment on this would > be the suggestion to read and quote from Srila Prabhupada's books a little > more. What else one could expect from you, but to suggest how Hare Krsna dd is not reading enough Prabhupada's books. Amazingly, you haven't discovered to us yet anything about the quality of her chanting the japa. Anybody there out, just dare to mention any story from anywhere else but Prabhupada's books! Watch out! No wonder people tell for us to be some brain-washed sect followers. Since some try to turn us into such, every now and then. > This is totally inaccurate on your part. On May 29th I asked you to answer > several questions in regards to your motivation and thoughts on > footnoting. Your answer was contained in May 30th response which stated: I know you are an inspector of agriculture, but ain't we here a bit away from some inspections of cabbage-fields? People got the sense of self-dignity. Unlike the cabbage. > And yes, I can imagine you > would feel threatened about to the point questions regarding issues that > you are on thin ice about. So keep imagining. That's all you do with this "cabbage-chopping" farce. You imagine that HKdd (along with MRdd) is the treat to Prabhupada's books and mission. You imagine that she is a bluntly misguided devotee. You imagine that she is suggesting how Prabhupada's books are in fact (sic!) some footnotes to previous acaryas' books... No limit, indeed. It's becoming rather an entertainment. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 > >In African American folk tales, there is the story of Brer Rabbit and the > Tar > >Baby. > I won't reproduce the whole text as I am sure the participants in this > conference can remember the gripping tale. My only comment on this would > be the suggestion to read and quote from Srila Prabhupada's books a little > more. What else one could expect from you, but to suggest how Hare Krsna dd is not reading enough Prabhupada's books. Amazingly, you haven't discovered to us yet anything about the quality of her chanting the japa. Anybody there out, just dare to mention any story from anywhere else but Prabhupada's books! Watch out! No wonder people tell for us to be some brain-washed sect followers. Since some try to turn us into such, every now and then. > This is totally inaccurate on your part. On May 29th I asked you to answer > several questions in regards to your motivation and thoughts on > footnoting. Your answer was contained in May 30th response which stated: I know you are an inspector of agriculture, but ain't we here a bit away from some inspections of cabbage-fields? People got the sense of self-dignity. Unlike the cabbage. > And yes, I can imagine you > would feel threatened about to the point questions regarding issues that > you are on thin ice about. So keep imagining. That's all you do with this "cabbage-chopping" farce. You imagine that HKdd (along with MRdd) is the treat to Prabhupada's books and mission. You imagine that she is a bluntly misguided devotee. You imagine that she is suggesting how Prabhupada's books are in fact (sic!) some footnotes to previous acaryas' books... No limit, indeed. It's becoming rather an entertainment. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 1999 Report Share Posted June 7, 1999 The real problem is considering saying something someone may not want to hear. The utilization of Prabhupada's quotes is entirely secondary to that, I can assure you. > > What else one could expect from you, but to suggest how Hare > Krsna dd is not reading enough Prabhupada's books. Amazingly, > you haven't discovered to us yet anything about the quality of > her chanting the japa. > > Anybody there out, just dare to mention any story from anywhere > else but Prabhupada's books! Watch out! > > No wonder people tell for us to be some brain-washed sect followers. > Since some try to turn us into such, every now and then. > > .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 1999 Report Share Posted June 7, 1999 The real problem is considering saying something someone may not want to hear. The utilization of Prabhupada's quotes is entirely secondary to that, I can assure you. > > What else one could expect from you, but to suggest how Hare > Krsna dd is not reading enough Prabhupada's books. Amazingly, > you haven't discovered to us yet anything about the quality of > her chanting the japa. > > Anybody there out, just dare to mention any story from anywhere > else but Prabhupada's books! Watch out! > > No wonder people tell for us to be some brain-washed sect followers. > Since some try to turn us into such, every now and then. > > .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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