Visvamitra Muni ate dog flesh

June 11, 1999

On 11 Jun 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> The point is: Meat eating is permitted if one is in a life and death

> situation.

As we approach varnasrama-dharma implementation in a practicable manner it is

important to remember that we are doing so in order to engage as many humans

as possible (Lord Caitanya's para-upakara program) in this divine institution

in order that they get on the path of Krsna consciousness - bhakti yoga.

Sudras, vaisyas and ksatriyas are all effected by different modes of nature

than brahmanas and therefore the guna and karma daiva engagements and

lifestyles will differ accordingly. Facility is offered to them in the daiva

varnasrama-dharma institution by means of brahmanas performing their

prescribed duties for different religious functions such as sacrifices.

"One should not imitate another's duty. A man who is by nature attracted to

the kind of work done by sudras should not artificially claim himself to be a

brahmana, although he may be born into a brahmana family. In this way, one

should work according to his own nature; no work is abominable, if performed

in the service of the Supreme Lord.

The occupational duty of a brahmana is certainly in the mode of goodness,

but if a person is not by nature in the mode of goodness, he should not

imitate the occupational duty of a brahmana. For a ksatriya or administrator,

there are so many abominable things; a ksatriya has to be violent to kill his

enemies, and sometimes a ksatriya has to tell lies for the sake of diplomacy.

Such violence and duplicity accompany political affairs, but a ksatriya is not

supposed to give up his occupational duty and try to perform the duties of a

brahmana.

One should act to satisfy the Supreme Lord... In the business field also,

sometimes a merchant has to tell so many lies to make a profit. If he does

not do so, there can be no profit. Sometimes a merchant say, ‘Oh, my dear

customer, for you I am making no profit', but one should know that without

profit a merchant cannot exist. Therefore it should be taken as a simple lie

if a merchant says that he is not making a profit. But the merchant should

not think that because he is engaged in an occupation in which the telling of

lies is compulsory, he should give up his profession and pursue the profession

of a brahmana. That is not recommended.

...The conclusion is that everyone should be engaged according to the

particular mode of nature he has acquired, and he should decide to work only

to serve the supreme cause of the Supreme Lord." Bg. 18.47.

"There was a tailor who was a meat-eater but was sewing garments for Srivas

Thakur. The Lord, being merciful to him, showed him His own form." CC Adi

17.23

"The meat-eaters are generally called mlecchas. But all meat-eaters are not

mlecchas. Those who accept meat in terms of scriptural injunctions are not

mlecchas, but those who accept meat without restriction are called mlecchas."

S.B. 1.16.20.

"Everyone is inclined in this age to eat meat and fish, drink liquor, and

indulge in sex life, but according to the Vedic injunctions, sex is allowed

only in marriage, meat eating is allowed only when the animal is killed and

offered before the goddess Kali, and intoxication is allowed only in a

restricted way... The word niyamyate indicates that all these things - namely

animal killing, intoxication and sex - should be regulated." 4.26.7.

"Sometimes ksatriyas go to the forest to kill animals like deer because they

have to learn the art of killing, and sometimes they eat the animals also.

Sudras, too, eat animals such as goats... Those who desire to eat meat may

satisfy the demands of their tongues by eating lower animals, but they should

never kill cows, who are actually accepted as the mothers of human society

because they supply milk." S.B. 6.4.9.

"Four kinds of sinful activities - associating with women for illicit sex,

eating meat, intoxication and gambling - are allowed for the ksatriyas. For

political reasons, sometimes they have to take to these sinful activities.

Ksatriyas do not refrain from gambling. One vivid example is the Pandavas."

S.B. 4.22.13

"Just like the ksatriya, they must learn how to kill. So, practically they

should go to the forest and kill some animal, and if he likes he can eat also.

But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are ksatriyas, they are allowed

sometimes to eat meat....So for ksatriyas, if they want to eat meat, they can

be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill

the animal.

..if some of the ksatriyas or the sudras want to eat meat, this is our

prescription - go to the forest, kill some animals and eat them.

And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat, or the candalas.

The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice it before the Deity of the

goddess Kali and then they can eat. No one should be given unrestricted

freedom to eat meat or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine there is Durga

puja, Candi puja. That means restriction. Under certain conditions."

SP MWC Vrin. ‘74

These were prescribed responsibilities for ISKCON's leaders over 25 years ago

given by Srila Prabhupada in order to engage as many people as possible in

Krsna's eternal service. That is what preaching and leadership mean.

Are we going to continue to try to change every sudra, vaisya and ksatriya

into a brahmana? This program has thus far proven unsuccessful for many, many

excellent candidates of devotional service to the Lord.

"Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that

here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty,

ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he

performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially

he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work

of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But

why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a

sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let

him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very

nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena

parah puman visnur aradhyate."

"Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is required. In big

scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not

possible. This is small scale. How many percentage of people of the world

we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole

human society perfect, then this Krsna consciousness movement should be

introduced according to the Krsna's instruction, if you want to do it in a

large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up

some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said

para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of

people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve

karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit,

not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this

varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people

will be happy."

June 11, 1999

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

> [Text 2398260 from COM]

>

> On 11 Jun 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

>

> > The point is: Meat eating is permitted if one is in a life and death

> > situation.

>

> As we approach varnasrama-dharma implementation in a practicable manner it is

> important to remember that we are doing so in order to engage as many humans

> as possible (Lord Caitanya's para-upakara program) in this divine institution

> in order that they get on the path of Krsna consciousness - bhakti yoga.

> Sudras, vaisyas and ksatriyas are all effected by different modes of nature

> than brahmanas and therefore the guna and karma daiva engagements and

> lifestyles will differ accordingly. Facility is offered to them in the daiva

> varnasrama-dharma institution by means of brahmanas performing their

> prescribed duties for different religious functions such as sacrifices.

This raises some very interesting points. I was in Mayapura in February 1998,

when Gopiparanadhana prabhu gave a Bhagavatam class. He had managed to steer

the

topic toward varnasrama, which he was very interested in, as he was on the

Social

Development commission.

An Indian lady raised her hand and said, "You are talking about varnasrama --

does

that mean we will allow people in our society who eat meat?"

He responded, "Well, we already do. They are called 'life members.' There is

no

rule that a life member cannot eat meat, and some of them do. But we are

trying

to give them a chance to be involved in Krsna consciousness. Varnasrama would

simply mean it was more regulated."

So there are definitely good arguments for using varnasrama to incorporate all

different kinds of people, even those who eat meat.

But, I don't think that at this point we should pretend that how this is to be

done is clear. Sometimes you will read quotes from Srila Prabhupada that say

meat

eating is okay for ksatriyas and sudras. Other times he says that even a

ksatriya

should not eat meat. Sometimes he says that eating meat offered to Kali is

alright, and at other times he says there is no possibility of spiritual

advancement for those who eat meat even if it is offered to the demigods.

So, I think we make a very great mistake if we pretend that Prabhupada's answer

is

clearly defined one way or the other.

I would think that in a varnasrama college or in a varnasrama community this

issue

should be carefully discussed by people who can do so without becoming

hysterical

and emotional about either option (guided by sober brahmanas). Only then can

the

correct decision for that community be reached.

And for those of us who have already taken a vow against meat eating, it seems

clear that we must do our utmost to honor that vow -- including developing cow

protection now, so that we don't have to ponder whether or not to eat a

squirrel a

year from now.

So Srila Prabhupada has definitely given some leeway here on the possibility of

eating meat -- especially for those who have not yet taken any vow that they

will

not do so. (Life members have not taken any such vow.)

Nevertheless we must always carefully bear in mind his many cautions about the

spiritual hazards of meat eating, such as the following:

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 1: Chapter Three, Text 24 :PURPORT

Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the

son

of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who

are

envious of the faithful theist.

PURPORT

Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead,

appeared

in the province of Gaya (Bihar) as the son of Anjana, and he preached his own

conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned

in

the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were

atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic

sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and

animal-killing was indulged in unrestrictedly.

Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached

that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse

psychological effects incurred by animal-killing. Less intelligent men of the

age

of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time

being

they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps

for

proceeding further on the path of God realization.

He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did

not

believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself

was

the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God

in

the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the

faithless

faithful to him.

Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent

feature of the society. People claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When

the

Vedas are not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the

casual

readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of

knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gita a comment has been made on such foolish

scholars

(avipascitah).

The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the

transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic

succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are

considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. According to the

Bhagavad-gita (15.15), vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah: the whole system of

the

Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme

of

Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic

situation and the relation between all these items. When the relation is known,

the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate

goal

of life or going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner.

Unfortunately,

unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory

ceremonies only, and natural progress is thereby checked.

To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the

emblem

of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of

animal-killing.

The animal-killers are dangerous elements on the path going back to Godhead.

There

are two types of animal-killers. The soul is also sometimes called the "animal"

or

the living being. Therefore, both the slaughterer of animals and those who have

lost their identity of soul are animal-killers.

Maharaja Pariksit said that only the animal-killer cannot relish the

transcendental message of the Supreme Lord.

Therefore if people are to be educated to the path of Godhead, they must be

taught

first and foremost to stop the process of animal-killing as above mentioned.

It is nonsensical to say that animal-killing has nothing to do with spiritual

realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyasis have sprung up

by

the grace of Kali-yuga who preach animal-killing under the garb of the Vedas.

The

subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord

Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the

Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal-killing in the slaughterhouse.

Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward

the

evidence of animal-killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the

authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted

in

order to save people from the vice of animal-killing as well as to save the

poor

animals from the slaughtering process of their big brothers who clamor for

universal brotherhood, peace, justice and equity.

There is no justice when there is animal-killing. Lord Buddha wanted to stop it

completely, and therefore his cult of ahimsa was propagated not only in India

but

also outside the country.

Technically Lord Buddha's philosophy is called atheistic because there is no

acceptance of the Supreme Lord and because

that system of philosophy denied the authority of the Vedas. But that is an act

of

camouflage by the Lord. Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Godhead. As such, he

is

the original propounder of Vedic knowledge. He therefore cannot reject Vedic

philosophy. But he rejected it outwardly because the sura-dvisa, or the demons

who

are always envious of the devotees of Godhead, try to support cow-killing or

animal-killing from the pages of the Vedas, and this is now being done by the

modernized sannyasis.

****************************

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Nineteen, Text 36

:PURPORT

As we have repeatedly explained, due to a lack of qualified brahminical

priests in Kali-yuga, it is not possible to perform the ritualistic ceremonies

recommended in the Vedas.

....In Kali-yuga men all over the world are very expert in opening

slaughterhouses

for killing animals, which they eat. If the old ritualistic ceremonies were

observed, people would be encouraged to kill more and more animals. In Calcutta

there are many butcher shops which keep a deity of the goddess Kali, and

animal-eaters think it proper to purchase animal flesh from such shops in hope

that they are eating the remnants of food offered to goddess Kali. They do not

know that goddess Kali never accepts nonvegetarian food because she is the

chaste

wife of Lord Siva. Lord Siva is also a great Vaisnava and never eats

nonvegetarian

food, and the goddess Kali accepts the remnants of food left by Lord Siva.

Therefore there is no possibility of her eating flesh or fish. Such offerings

are

accepted by the associates of goddess Kali known as bhutas, pisacas and

Raksasas,

and those who take the prasada of goddess Kali in the shape of flesh or fish

are

not actually taking the prasada left by goddess Kali, but the food left by the

bhutas and pisacas.

***********************

> "Everyone is inclined in this age to eat meat and fish, drink liquor, and

> indulge in sex life, but according to the Vedic injunctions, sex is allowed

> only in marriage, meat eating is allowed only when the animal is killed and

> offered before the goddess Kali, and intoxication is allowed only in a

> restricted way... The word niyamyate indicates that all these things - namely

> animal killing, intoxication and sex - should be regulated." 4.26.7.

> "Sometimes ksatriyas go to the forest to kill animals like deer because they

> have to learn the art of killing, and sometimes they eat the animals also.

> Sudras, too, eat animals such as goats... Those who desire to eat meat may

> satisfy the demands of their tongues by eating lower animals, but they should

> never kill cows, who are actually accepted as the mothers of human society

> because they supply milk." S.B. 6.4.9.

>

> "Four kinds of sinful activities - associating with women for illicit sex,

> eating meat, intoxication and gambling - are allowed for the ksatriyas. For

> political reasons, sometimes they have to take to these sinful activities.

> Ksatriyas do not refrain from gambling. One vivid example is the Pandavas."

> S.B. 4.22.13

******************************

So, on one hand, varnasrama means to include people from all walks of life and

help bring them to Krsna consciousness. So sometimes we need to be a little

bit

liberal, as we are with some of our life members.

On the other hand, meat eating is such an impediment to understanding Krsna

that

in general, our best course is to try to get people to eat only Krsna prasadam

as

soon as possible.

Also in terms of prioritizing our social arrangement, we need to think which is

more important: Making arrangements so people can eat meat -- or making

arrangements so people can protect cows.

People already know how to make some arrangements to eat meat -- but if Krsna's

devotees don't make some arrangements to train and support devotees who are

protecting cows, we may find that in a couple years there are hardly any cows

left.

And the final point here is that most of the times that Prabhupada does make

allowances for eating meat, it is for ksatriyas and sudras. The example of

Visvamitra Muni is exceptional because it is an example of a brahmana who ate

meat. In general Prabhupada has great disdain for sannyasis who eat meat.

They

should be providing such good leadership and guidance to the ksatriyas that

society will protect cows, who will provide milk and bulls to produce grain.

Then

there will be no need to even consider eating meat.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

June 11, 1999