Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Hare Krsna, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. After skimming over the discussion below, I pray that no parties concerned would mind my making a small comment. In regard to the question, "what do we want to be, the response was "gentlemen and gentlewomen". I might humbly interject that, although attaining to the platform of pure devotional service would certainly include developing all the qualities of perfect ladies and gentlemen, we cannot forget that to become pure devotees, absorbed in the topmost transcendental rasas of loving service to Srimati Radhika, is our goal. Srila Prabhupada was not squeamish about telling us that this is our goal, as far as what we want to be. We want to know our eternal, spiritual form, which for each and every one of us is different. Whereas being a perfect gentlemen or gentlewoman is definitely a by product of ataining our svarup, it is not the primary goal. Certainly, Bhima was a pure devotee, and in almost all cases was a gentleman, but what gentleman would swear that he would drink the blood of his cousing, as Bhima swore to Duhsasana, for having dragged Draupadi by her hair? There are many cases where the ettiquestte of perfect merely a lady or gentleman does not suffice. Our goal must be fixed, in order for there to be unity with the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. It must be that we all agree, to attain to the highest loving mood of loving service to Radha and Krsna, and their most exalted servants. Hare Krsna, Mahalaksmi Dasi ---------- COM: (Bhakta) Sergei Schmalz (Wiesbaden - D) Tuesday, June 15, 1999 2:51 AM COM: (ISKCON) Social and Economic Development; COM: Varnasrama development Cc: COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women); COM: Leadership Principles; COM: New Age What is our common vision? [Text 2406795 from COM] Dear Harsi Prabhu, please accept my respectful obeisances unto Your lotus feet. All glories to Srila Prabhupada, the founder-acarya of ISKCON. All glories to Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai and Sri Sri Radha-Govinda! Thank You for Your interestinf letter. It pushes everyone, towards an attempt to understand what is what. I am not an outstanding person who can answer every single question, but You desired so much to have answers to Your questions, so that I've taken it as a personal request, though a request to everyone. I'll be very glad if You'll find my answers sufficient in some respects, but if it will not be the case, then ask me for further clarifications. I like it to have a constructive talk with an inquisitive person, who wants finally to understand the life. Such talks are productive for both sides. > In the spiritual and material sense, one may ask in this conection. What > is our common vision? > What should be our common vision? Read below, please. > Does there exist any common vision at all? Yes it does. The problem here is that it is not so easy to make every person conscious of that common vision. And one should not forget the important fact that every single person has his own life, which means that this common vision has a personally different end. > What was Srila Prabhupadas vision? > What was his vision for his ISKCON society? Read his books and Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta, Prabhupada Nectar, etc. They answer this question in the best way. I can't repeat it here likewise. > What is ISKCONs vision today? > Is there any common ISKCON vision? As an ISKCON member I have a common vision, and I appreciate it very much when I see, how other devotees think, say and do the same. I am a very optimistic person, by nature, so that I firmly believe in our common vision. It depends on what one does with it, and how deep does one understand it. Another improtant point is that whenever we speak of ISKCON we should NOT forget persons behind the impersonal society. One has to deal with it on both impersonal level (with ISKCON as organization), and on a very personal level (with ISKCON's members). > What is the vision of our leaders? > Do they have any common vision? I am not an approved leader of ISKCON, nor do I have very close contacts to our present leader, so that I can't answer this question in full. Of course, there are some leaders who have principally the same vision with Srila Prabhupada, or they try to fullfil his vision, without adding their own ideas. But some leaders in the past (or maybe even nowadays) have come out to be rascals and failed. > What leaders do we have actually, social or spiritual? At present only spiritual, and even these are of a very small amount. As far as social leaders are concerned, we are still accustomed to take advice from karmis. This, however, should be changed, because karmis have another vision of life, another understanding, different values. But sometimes it is quite acceptable to ask them for an advice: a friend in need is a friend indeed. > What leaders do we want, social and spiritual? > Do we want actually social leaders? or > Do we want only spiritual leaders? In the form of the guru there is already automatically the spiritual leader, and they are really required, because otherwise it's one step towards uncontrolled speculations, etc. But spiritual leaders are not the only thing we require in our life here in the material world. Our life consists of two halves: 1) spiritual life, guided by the spiritual master and other senior devotees (true devotees), 2) social life, guided by different experts in each particular field of knowledge. This is a natural division of a both spiritual and social community. Varnasrama-dharma as it is. > What do we expect from our life on earth? Knowledge and understanding > steady peace of mind > compassion > developing of one's own spiritual life > teaching that sience to others. > What are we actually? Speaking by scriptures: we are the ones whose constitutional position is to render loving service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, along with Srimati Radharani. Taking the social issue in this regard: every single livig being, after soooo many life-times has been our best friend; today, by the spell of bodily life-conception, we look at most of them as enemies or similar. Casting the hate off far away we should come to the proper understanding of our common relations among ourselves, i.e. we are a great family, who actually want nothing but raise their faith in Lord. Because of illusion we fight with each other, pointing at every weakness of everyone, thus lacking understanding each other. > Drop-outs from the society who are waiting for theyr next flight to > Vaikuntha? No. First of all, we don't need to 'fly' to Vaikuntha. Bhaktivinoda Thakura said he wanted just to remain with pure devotees, even still in this material world, even suffering. Second, there are really many devotees in ISKCON who are not at all drop-outs from the society. I don't want to be a proud bubble now, but I'm a not a drop-out, definitely. We have many intelligent nice persons, who do not hunt women and brake regulative principles. Of course, there are a lot of rascals, who come to our movement, which is open to everyone, but one should not completely forget the good ones! > Or individuals who want to form a society with another common vision in > mind always remembering Krsna and our eternal destination? Yes. > What do we actually want to be? Gentlemen and gentlewomen. > A group with common goals? > Many groups with common goals? There should be a group with common goals, but this group should naturally consist of sub-groups, because different areas of occupation need different skills, etc. Nontheless, however subdivided the whole may be, there must be unity among all the sub-branches. > A society on a common basis? > A society structure on a common basis and with common goals? Socially there cannot be any common basis, only spiritually it is possible. In social affairs we have different views, different qualities, abilities, or facilities. Thus, the soicial basis should not be common, in the sense that separate social classes should have particular independence from the other ones. But a society as a whole must have common basis, in the sense that all social classes MUST support each other by different means. And this leads to the goals, which are also common: 1) a common social goal, i.e. social prosperity, 2) a common spiritual goal, i.e. the social society must provide better circumstances for practicing devotional service. > Do we want a social structure? or > Do we want to depend only on Krsnas mercy, without any envolvment from our > side in this direction? There MUST be a social structure! A very simple explanation follows: it must be there, because it (varnasrama-dharma) is prescribed by the Vedic scriptures and is very dear to Lord Visnu, Krsna. If one doesn't have it, then we'll have soon enough so-called brahmanas who make show of wearing brahmana's thread, brahmacaris having some girlfriends, etc. The whole community will be turned up side down; the result is - nobody is responsible for anything. > How should such a social structure of our society look like? On the one hand it is a simple question, because varnasrama-dharma is fully described in scriptures like dharma-satras. On the other hand it is a very difficult question, because it is extremely problematic to build up that kind of society on the present basis, on the basis of today's society in which we live. But not impossible, as I firmly belive. > Many more questions come into my mind but will the above mentioned find > any answer? That would be nice. True, there are many questions. We, together only, can try to answer them, step by step. Did I answer Your questions hier? Please, let me know, but don't say 'yes' just so, tell the things as they are. > your servant > Harsi das Your unworthy servant, Sergei. Hare Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Dear Mahalaksmi Mataji, please accept my respectful obeisances unto Your lotus feet. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and all other Vaisnavas! All glories to Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai and Sri Sri Radha-Govinda! Thank You very much for comment, it has its particular value. But let me, please, put in a kind of clarification for the answer I gave upon Harsi Prabhu. > we want to be, the response was "gentlemen and gentlewomen". I might > humbly interject that, although attaining to the platform of pure > devotional service would certainly include developing all the qualities of > perfect ladies and gentlemen, we cannot forget that to become pure > devotees, absorbed in the topmost transcendental rasas of loving service > to Srimati Radhika, is our goal. This is completely true, no objection may be there. The reason for "gentlemen and gentlewomen" as an answer was the social one, because the hole topic of Harsi Prabhu's letter was that. I did want to answer his question in the way You do, but I was afraid to sound too unseriously. Why unseriously? Because everyone who has been following in Srila Prabhupada's footsteps understands it more or less clearly that we are going to become pure unalloyed servants of Radha and Krsna. The problem is that we are still in this material world and we HAVE TO DO something about this, too. That's why did I write "gentlemen and gentlewomen". Otherwise, we are supposed to become bhaktas/bhaktins and nothing else. > lady or gentleman does not suffice. Our goal must be fixed, in order for > there to be unity with the International Society for Krishna > Consciousness. It must be that we all agree, to attain to the highest > loving mood of loving service to Radha and Krsna, and their most exalted > servants. To the "agreement" You are speaking here about: this is exactly the point and the problem. The agreement must be on both the spiritual and the social platforms. The latter serves the former. Thank You once again for Your suitable and constructive remark. Your most unworthy servant, Sergei. Hare Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 1999 Report Share Posted June 22, 1999 > Was this meant to be a poem? It is actually a little poetic, taken at a distance. could be titled something like - Questions On the Birthing of a New Social Order > > > In the spiritual and material sense, one may ask in this conection. > What is our common vision? > What should be our common vision? > Does there exist any common vision at all? > > What was Srila Prabhupadas vision? > What was his vision for his ISKCON society? > What is ISKCONs vision today? > Is there any common ISKCON vision? > > What is the vision of our leaders? > Do they have any common vision? > What leaders do we have actually, social or spiritual? > What leaders do we want, social and spiritual? > Do we want actually social leaders? or > Do we want only spiritual leaders? > > What do we expect from our life on earth? > What are we actually? > Drop-outs from the society who are waiting for theyr next flight to > Vaikuntha? > Or individuals who want to form a society with another common vision in mind > always remembering Krsna and our eternal destination? > > What do we actually want to be? > A group with common goals? > Many groups with common goals? > A society on a common basis? > A society structure on a common basis and with common goals? > > Do we want a social structure? or > Do we want to depend only on Krsnas mercy, without any envolvment from our > side in this direction? > How should such a social structure of our society look like? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 Dear Harsi Prabhu Pamho. AgtSP. I was very pleased by your nice questions. They are pertinent. I doubt that you will get answers for them in such an easy way. In my opinion ISKCON, as an institution, has not elaborated the precise plan you looking for. My advice to you is that you go on with the researches and share them with us. It will be a great service for the society. When I was in NY for the last ratha-yatra, I interview some GBCs on this matter. Their perspective deceived me. I am planing to write something on it, as a resume. That kind of preoccupation is part of my meditation. In an article entitled "Open letter to a transcendentalist" posted sometimes ago on Com I dealt a little bit with the questions you put for. If you have not read it I will send it to you with pleasure. Ys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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