Sentimentalism vs Sadhu´s knife

[Guest guest]

Dear Samba Prabhu,

 

please accept my humble obeisances. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

If you don´t mind, I would like to comment a little bit on some of

your statements in your reply to Madhusudani Radha Prabhvi.

 

 

> I agree we should not be judgemental. But we should be humble, it is the

> most important prerequisite for spiritual advancement. So while I would

> hesitate to judge others, we can make a blanket statement that we should

> all be humble, of course it cant be forced. Humility is very necesary for

> spiritual life. A person who is actualy humble does not seek to defend

> himself. Was it Jagganatha das Babaji who surrounded himself with fish

> bones and alcohol bottles so people would thing he was a materialist?

>

> So we were pressured into taking gurus, by people who wanted to cheat us.

> I mean why else would they coerce us? Not necesarily all the devotees, but

> certainly some of them had alterior motivations. But Prabhupada explains

> to us about cheaters and the cheated. I mean Krsna is infallible right, he

> cant be cheated. And he wants to help us. So if we were really sincere,

> then nothing could have gotten in our way. If something did get in the

> way, how could that be, unless we did not really want to surrender all the

> way. Maybe we wanted spiritual life without the full surrender. Bhagavan

> once said "if its not a thousand dollars (daily collection) its not

> devotional service". So maybe some thought that you could go home for

> $1000 a day. Spritual life is not that cheap.

 

 

Speaking for myself, I have my doubts that this issue of Gurus

falling down and leaving behind the "cheated-cheaters-" disciples is just a

question of "bad karma" of the afflicted disciple, or even worse, their

propensity to cheat and get cheated. I think we have indeed to be careful

"not to be so judgemental of each other" as Madhusudani-Radha Prabhvi puts

it. Better leave the judgement up to Krsna, than you are on the save side.

I read somewhere in the 10th Canto of SB even, that Krsna takes care

personally of His devotee´s destiny and that He uses karma sometimes to

teach His devotee a lesson. And who knows, perhaps this one lesson Krsna

wants to teach to a certain devotee is extending also towards us. Maybe

Krsna wants to see OUR reaction towards the falldown, problems, ect. of this

specific devotee?

 

Devotees don´t fit into this category of bad karma-crippled people,

we are taken care of directly by the Lord, our eternal Father. And more

specifically, what former disciple of HKS is feeling now cheated by him?

Weren´t his disciples able to make substancial advancement? I think that

many among them are indeed great great souls, not to be critiziced for

having committed the "grave mistake of accepting a non-bonafide guru". HKS

WAS bonafide, is there any doubt about this from anyone out there? He and

his disciples were rendering so much devotional service for so long. For

example, where does all the money come from for Sri Mayapur Dham project?

And, as Madhava-Gosh Prabhu had pointed out previously, the eternal

connection between Krsna and the guru´s disciple is made at the time of

initiation, irrespective of the future´s destiny of the disciple´s guru;

this is the principle of parampara.

 

Where is it stated that the guru has to be an eternally liberated

soul uncapable of committing mistakes or even falling down? Syamasundara Pr.

mentioned last year in his astrology conference that there is evidence that

even in Vedic times guru fall-down was known of.

 

Besides, in the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, Rupa Gosvami mentions as

one of the causes for wrong or sinful action, ignorance. Wouldn´t it be

conceivable or even reasonable to assume that most new Bhaktas in ISKCON

temples didn´t know how to distinguish a genuine guru from a bogus one who

was interested only in money or whatever? Weren´t they trained to blindly

believe in the authority structure of ISKCON? Instead of accusing them of

being cheaters and thus demanding more humility from them than from the rest

of us, I would prefer to call them "misguided by either ignorant or cheating

leaders" who are now in trouble and in need of friendly relationships with

devotees. I personally feel a great deal of admiration for those noble souls

still among us, who after getting initiation from 3 or 4 or even 5 gurus

continue rendering devotional service within ISKCON. Why should e.g.

Mahanidhi Prabhu begin showing his extra humility by surrounding himself

with fishbones and alcohol bottles ?!? :-)

 

Even Srila Prabhupada was sometimes speaking of "the ignorant mass

of people". Otherwise, what´s the use of preaching anyway? Everybody is a

cheated-cheater anyhow, everybody will get what he/ she really, REALLY

wants... I think, I will never preach again, you´ve convinced me finally,

Samba Prabhu! :-)

 

But no, you can change karma, even a materialist can change at least

his future karma by acting in the mode of goodness. But first, he has to

receive proper knowledge from a proper (pure) source, and then he may

develop even the required proper DESIRES, which concludes the circle.

 

> > Please lets have some compassion here.

>

> The things you described were certainly horrific. And of course completely

> unwanted. They are obviously also karmic reactions, as nothing happens

> without a reason. But that does not mean the the perpetrators do not have

> to pay, they do, they are also guilty.

> We are all guilty in this material world. Its a prison. To try to pretend

> its not is simply sentimental. Compassion is when we remind each other

> where we are really at. Compassion is the sadhus knife wielding, cutting

> through the illusion, cutting the hard knot of material attachment.

 

 

I´m afraid if someone inexperienced in surgery is using a knife on

my body. Probably there was too much knife-cutting going on amongst

ourselves in the past and now many of us are bleeding emotionally, excuse

me, I wanted to say "sentimentally"...

 

 

> Unfortunately this may be another case where the cold stark reality of

> text, belies the motivation and mood of the writer. Mahanidhi prabhu

> sometimes seems to think I am personaly attacking him.

 

 

Perhaps you are attacking him subtlely, without being aware of it.

Indirectly you are calling him a cheater, because he had once accepted a

"cheating" guru, if I may recall your thread of logic, or am I wrong?

 

 

> I realy yearn for a time when we can actualy have a varnasrama community

> where we can personaly interact, and prove our sincerity by actions rather

> than words. Then maybe there would be little use for these cold impersonal

> machines to communicate.

>

> I agree compassion is needed, and we need to overlook each others faults.

> But at the same time, the philosophy must be upheld, and we have to know

> where the bottom line is, even if we cannot reach it yet. This conference

> must surely promote both understandings.

 

 

Fully agree with that, Samba Prabhu. Rest assured, nobody on this

conference will try to undermine our basic philosophy. But still, the point

that Madhusudani Radha Prabhvi was going to make was extremely valid, though

also a simple one. I´ll give you one example:

 

Just recently it so happened in one of our ISKCON temples that a

mentally deranged Bhaktin attacked physically an initiated lady who got hurt

severly and had to undergo first aid and medical treatment in a hospital.

Now guess, what the surrounding devotees´ reaction was? They were first of

all not at all concerned in helping her (as they had been equally

indifferent towards helping that Bhaktin who was in desperate need of

professional psychological treatment since years), and secondly, they were

even trying to philosophically preach to her like: "Ah, this is just your

bad karma, you shouldn´t be upset about it. It´s all your fault, ultimately!

This Bhaktin was so nice and probably you maltreated her in some way so

therefore she beat you up - justice had been done!" No devotee was visiting

her in hospital, nobody was writing her a card, nobody was phoning her up -

for weeks!

 

Now, this initiated Mataji is not at all angry at the Bhaktin, who

obviously is suffering from this mental illness. But she got completely

disappointed and disillusioned by the devotees´ "non-sentimental" reaction.

 

Conclusion, in the words of Rohini-suta Prabhu (at a Sunday-feast, I

believe in Zagreb, a few months ago): "First we have to act like human

beings, than we can think of trying to become Vaishnavas."

 

Just some reflections on this discussion...

 

Your servant

Vedanta-krit dasa