Sentimentalism vs Sadhu's knife

[Guest guest]

> I read somewhere in the 10th Canto of SB even, that Krsna takes care

> personally of His devotee's destiny and that He uses karma sometimes to

> teach His devotee a lesson. And who knows, perhaps this one lesson Krsna

> wants to teach to a certain devotee is extending also towards us. Maybe

> Krsna wants to see OUR reaction towards the falldown, problems, ect. of

> this specific devotee?

 

Yes of course you are right. These kinds of things are extremely complex,

and different according to each individual. To the extent that we are

actualy devoted, to that degree we are protected, and also to that degree,

Krsna sends us tests. I dont think though that karma can be ruled out

completely. I personaly did not FEEL cheated when Jayatitha left, but in

retrospect I can see I was, as he did have serious material defects,

certainly not a pure devotee. But his cheating me (intended or not) was a

valuable lesson that I grew from. I would hope that anyone who went through

such a test, would also grow. But not that due to this mistake they are

forever branded. I think maybe you are jumping to the conclusion that I am

trying to brand them 'contaminated' or something. No we understand that this

is how we grow, passing through tests. We make bad choices, and realise our

mistakes to go on. Even though we may have been ignorant, we cant say we

were not warned about the consequences of accepting someone who is not

completely pure. We just in our naievete thought that we could rely on our

leaders (especialy during the zonal acarya days. Actualy I feel it should be

made clear to rely on no one, except our own conviction, when it comes to

choosing who is to be our guru, and we should be painfully aware of what an

imitation guru is like, we now have a lot of examples.

 

Just as I (and many others) was cheated, so was Jayatirtha, and he paid for

it severely. Maybe his severe punishement actualy helped him to be rid of

that karma to continue on his own spiritual path.

>

> Devotees don't fit into this category of bad karma-crippled people, we are

> taken care of directly by the Lord, our eternal Father. And more

> specifically, what former disciple of HKS is feeling now cheated by him?

> Weren't his disciples able to make substancial advancement? I think that

> many among them are indeed great great souls, not to be critiziced for

> having committed the "grave mistake of accepting a non-bonafide guru".

 

Prabhuji, I appreciate what you are saying, but you are mixing in things

said by Srila Prabhu, which I do not necesarily agree with in toto.

 

What criteria do we use to judge a persons spiritual advancement, how can we

tell how advanced someone is? What is 'substantial' advancement?

 

HKS

> WAS bonafide, is there any doubt about this from anyone out there? He and

> his disciples were rendering so much devotional service for so long. For

> example, where does all the money come from for Sri Mayapur Dham project?

 

Well I was very much part of Mayapur project for many years, and a lot of

money was wasted unfortunately, not deliberately, but wasted due to certain

persons being too overburdened with other responsibilities. Thankfully that

is not now happening. I personaly knew Harikesa prabhu, on a level that many

disiples could not, precisely because I was not one. I liked him very much.

he was certainly an inspiring person. But what is a bonafide guru? Surely he

has to be able to give you Krsna. And if he does not have Krsna, how can he

give? I dont have all the answers to this. Maybe he was a Kanistha, or

Madhyama guru, and maybe he will come back for his disciples, I dont know.

But right now he is fallen, so what can he do, and what should his disciples

do?

 

> Where is it stated that the guru has to be an eternally liberated soul

> uncapable of committing mistakes or even falling down? Syamasundara Pr.

> mentioned last year in his astrology conference that there is evidence

> that even in Vedic times guru fall-down was known of.

 

Yes you can take a guru that might fall down, but it just means that you

will have to wait a few births before you can go home. That is why it is

reccomended to take an uttama guru. Of course there is no loss. It might be

that we are not ready for full surrender in this life, and our desires

betray that, so we might take a lesser advanced guru, and be with him/her

for a few lives.

>

> Besides, in the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, Rupa Gosvami mentions as one of

> the causes for wrong or sinful action, ignorance. Wouldn't it be

> conceivable or even reasonable to assume that most new Bhaktas in ISKCON

> temples didn't know how to distinguish a genuine guru from a bogus one who

> was interested only in money or whatever?

 

Of course ignorance also plays a part. Some people will take lesser gurus,

begin their spiritual life, and after some more births finaly reach

perfection, if they dont make aparadha. But we canot rely on ignorance as an

alibi. I dont think Yamaraj will accept that. I think sometimes that the

problem is that we think ISKCON will take us home. ISKCON is not a stretcher

that we can rely on like that. ISKCON is a tool, an assembly of people who

are determined to do whatever it takes individualy to go home. We have to

take responsibility for our own lives.

 

Mahanidhi Prabhu begin showing his extra humility by

> surrounding himself with fishbones and alcohol bottles ?!? :-)

 

One cannot falsely make a show of humility. I just see Mahanidhi Prabhu

blasting away, in sometimes quite a heated manner, and I am quite frankly

concerned that in his passionate way he will do some injury to himself in

the way of aparadha.

>

> Even Srila Prabhupada was sometimes speaking of "the ignorant mass of

> people". Otherwise, what's the use of preaching anyway? Everybody is a

> cheated-cheater anyhow, everybody will get what he/ she really, REALLY

> wants... I think, I will never preach again, you've convinced me finally,

> Samba Prabhu! :-)

 

Did I say that *everyone* is a cheated cheater? IN this world we are all

cheaters and cheated yes, and we suffer because of that, and when we suffer

we learn, and eventualy we give it up. But the preaching must go on. You can

*change* what it is you really want, and that is what ISKCON is for, to help

us realise we have to change. So if we dont really want Krsna, what do we

do? Pray for the desiree to want Krsna, and if we cant do that? Then we pray

for the desire to have the desire to pray to want Krsna. If we do that then

we change what we really want.

>

> But no, you can change karma, even a materialist can change at least his

> future karma by acting in the mode of goodness. But first, he has to

> receive proper knowledge from a proper (pure) source, and then he may

> develop even the required proper DESIRES, which concludes the circle.

 

Exactly.

 

> I'm afraid if someone inexperienced in surgery is using a knife on my

> body. Probably there was too much knife-cutting going on amongst ourselves

> in the past and now many of us are bleeding emotionally, excuse me, I

> wanted to say "sentimentally"...

 

Dead right. No inexpereinced knife wielders please. Pure devotees do that

best. If you want to avoid bad knife wielders, dont surrender to lesser

souls. But we will, ignorance wont save us from that.

 

> Perhaps you are attacking him subtlely, without being aware of it.

> Indirectly you are calling him a cheater, because he had once accepted a

> "cheating" guru, if I may recall your thread of logic, or am I wrong?

 

Prabhu, I was also cheated and I am also cheating still now in subtle ways.

I am not personaly branding anyone. I dont wish to attack Mahanidhi prabhu.

Rather I wish to urge him to be cautious lest he do himself some harm.

 

Your text is very sensitive, and you refrain from heated words, and I

appreciate the way you are presenting your points. I feel that Mahanidhi

prabhu could learn from your approach, but he tends to go for personal

attacks, so it appears to me. I think that is dangerous. But then maybe I am

just misreading.

 

> Now, this initiated Mataji is not at all angry at the Bhaktin, who

> obviously is suffering from this mental illness. But she got completely

> disappointed and disillusioned by the devotees' "non-sentimental"

> reaction.

 

It is terrible isnt it. I have also seen this kind of thing. Certainly we

have to learn the art of being able to placate and soothe people who may

have been unjustly attacked. At the same time we have to be able to know the

actual truth. In the case you mentioned, irresponsible management seems to

have agravated the situation.

>

> Conclusion, in the words of Rohini-suta Prabhu (at a Sunday-feast, I

> believe in Zagreb, a few months ago): "First we have to act like human

> beings, than we can think of trying to become Vaishnavas."

 

I agree completely.

 

YS.