Sentimentalism vs Sadhu's knife

[Guest guest]

> > What criteria do we use to judge a persons spiritual advancement, how

> > can we tell how advanced someone is? What is 'substantial' advancement?

>

> Hm, this is indeed a good question! To be honest, I mainly BELIEVE that

> many - or to be more rational -, some are quite advanced due to their nice

> Vaishnava behaviour that they exhibit, like their intense absorption in

> devotional service, their firm faith in Krishna, their humility, their

> realizations in devotional service, their enthusiasm in preaching, etc.

> Perhaps you could add some more sastric criteria, Prabhu?

 

Advancement in Krsna Consciousness.

 

Symptoms of a Kanishta adhikary:

1. Sraddha. Firm faith. A disinterest in material affairs and interest in

spiritual advancement.

2, Sadhu sanga. Association with pure devotees.

3. Bhajana Kriya. performance of devotional service to Krsna (surrendering

to the spiritual master and being encouraged by the association of devotees

so that initiation takes place.

 

Madhyama adhikary.

1. Bhajana Kriya (higher stage) one becomes fully engaged in devotional

service and becomes detached from gross anarthas.

2. Anartha nivritti. Diminishing of anarthas both gross and subtle almost to

nill, the clearing stage.

3. Nishta firm or perfect faith, irevocable devotional service, i.e. the

brahma bhuta platform, liberated from the material platform.

4. Ruci, taste. An immense relish for hearing and chanting about the Lord,

so much so that one practicaly cannot stop, and rendering service develops.

 

Sadhana Raganuga Bhakti

5. Asakti. Attachment (loving inclination) the seed of bhava. One follows in

the footsetps of one of the inhabitants of Vrindavan, develops a spiritual

body, and his rasa with Krsna is revealed, last stage of Madhyama.

 

Uttama Adhikary.

1. Bhava. Seed tree of Prema. Ecstacy develops. uttama adhikary begins at

this stage. The minutest particle of Prema.

2.Prema. Pure love of Godhead. No falldown possible.

 

>From Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu.

 

> Excuse me, Prabhu, here I beg to disagree. I think that HKS was qualified

> as a genuine guru from many different perspectives (his conduct, his

> belonging to the parampara, etc). This is exactly the point where the

> Ritviks are attacking ISKCON saying, "there are no bonafide spiritual

> masters in ISKCON except Srila Prabhupada" and the followers of NM are

> cheerfully tuning in "therefore turn to NM!"

 

Sorry Prabhu, I keep doing this, trampling all over the sentiments of HKM's

disciples. I dont mean to do this, many of your godbrothers are my closest

freinds. I try to stick to objective philosophy, as I understand it, but

somehow some people take what I say as personal insult. I am sorry for that.

I guess I probabaly come across as some kind of fanatical sanctimonious

puritan or something, when actualy in person I'm a complete joker, and not

at all fanatic (honest).

 

There may not be at this time clearly apparent pure devotees in ISKCON (of

course that depends on who you are, many disciples may be convinced that

their gurus are completely pure). But as you pointed out earlier, there are

some devotees who are very sincere, and who certainly appear to be getting

there. I beleive that Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON will eventualy reveal its own

pure devotees. I am personaly convinced that Gour Govinda Maharaja was one,

and I do beleive that Lord Chaitanya will not allow Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON

to dissapear. Although Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was a very powerful guru, and

the Gaudiya math under his leadership, a powerful institution, still it

cannot compare to the ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada created all over the

world, it is very special. This must be the first time in the history of the

world, since Bharat Maharaja, that the Lords name and fame has spread to

every town and village. This is something very special, surely it will

triumph, one day.

 

This is a troublesome time for the world, and maybe we need to go through a

period of introspections and cleansing (hey I am not suggesting anykind of

ethnic guru/disciple cleansing here, ok prabhus. I am honestly not creating

Psycho sadhus, replete with dripping blades, and my name is not Sambosovitch

even if my sons name (Sudama) does sound a lot like Saddam, but maybe we

could create something like...... THE SPANISH INQUISITION! [That was for all

Monty Python fans out there] Burn all infidels and heretics, so say I....

Self rightous humility is the way! Actualy humility never got anyone

anywhere...

 

Now where was I.... ahhh,

>

> So what are the symptoms of a bona fide guru? Perhaps we can gather

> together some relevant quotes from sastra. I for myself found the

> following:

 

Nice quotes.

 

According to the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, when one reaches the stage of

advancement as a Madhyama, known as Sadhana raganuga bhakti. There is a

mellow(?) called asakti. 'Attachment' (Loving inclination) the seed of

bhava. One follows in the footsteps of one of the inhabitants of vrindavan,

develops a spiritual body, and his rasa with Krsna is revealed.

 

Every morning we sing 'Nikunja-yuno rati keli siddhyai', that the spiritual

master is very dear because he is expert in assisting the gopis, who at

different times make different tasteful arrangements for the perfection of

Radha and Krsna's conjugal loving affairs, within the groves of Vrindavana.

 

I dont have the veda base unfortunately but there are many more examples of

the actual relationship a pure devotee has with Krsna personaly. These are

very important considerations, which need to be included along with other

cited qualifications for uttama gurus. Previously there was posted a quote

on this conference which reccomended that one take an uttama guru, but that

you can accept a madhyama guru, but that is not the best.

 

A pure devotee, is an INTIMATE associate of the Lord. It is very lofty. So

it makes sense (at least to me) that if we want Krsna with any urgency, we

really need to find someone who has him, who speaks with him directly.

 

> Again, I have my doubts about this statement of yours (the

> "few-lives-waiting-list"). Could you please provide some (sastric)

> evidence for this? What about the relevance of SIKSA guru(s) in this

> regard??

 

Of course we can have a qualified siksa guru(s), and he can take us home

also. The important thing is that if we actualy want to meet Krsna face to

face we have to find someone, who can say to Krsna 'here is a serious

devotee, who really wishes to meet you'. Someone who can actualy give you

the connection immediately, if he sees you are qualified.

 

We know that Krsna consciousness is about personalism. It is not that it is

automatic. Some seem to think that if we just chant our rounds and do our

service, even if it is completely mixed with material desire, we will go

home at the end of this life. But surely it is not that simple? Krsna is a

person, we can meet him, but we have to be completely pure before we do.

That is why we do try to purify ourselves, we have to follow it through to

the end. It is not easy to break our attachments.

 

Sorry but without folio I cant provide sastric quotes.

 

Prabhu I am sorry to say that I am far from an authority on this. I lack a

lot of personal purity so anything I say will not have any potency. Also I

really dont have the time nowadays to get into all this, and I am afraid of

making offences. Somehow I have really offended Mahanidhi prabhu, and he

seems to be convinced I am out to get him. I am even scared to answer

directly to his texts (I'm sure he'll get me for that one;-).

 

Recently I have been thinking (yet again) of leaving this conference (so

many texts every day, I have worn out three delete keys already...even the

keyboard casing is starting to crack in that area!) but I do want to hear

about the 'green' side of things. I am making a transition in my life right

now to farming, and getting quite busy in that area. Somehow I seem to get

drawn into these kinds of philosophical debates, and when I do I wish I

hadn't.

 

So sorry but I dont think I can really say much more than that.

 

Haribol.

 

YS.