Bona fide gurus: not in ISKCON?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the nice quotes on the devotees´symptoms on different levels.

 

> Sorry Prabhu, I keep doing this, trampling all over the sentiments of

> HKM's disciples. I dont mean to do this, many of your godbrothers are my

> closest freinds. I try to stick to objective philosophy, as I understand

> it, but somehow some people take what I say as personal insult. I am sorry

> for that. I guess I probabaly come across as some kind of fanatical

> sanctimonious puritan or something, when actualy in person I'm a complete

> joker, and not at all fanatic (honest).

 

I´m not an initiated disciple of HKS as you seem to assume. But I can´t help

feeling disturbed by your (in my opinion) unnecessary pinching of former HKS

disciples. I don´t think it fair nor Vaishnava-like to give them an extra

dose of cut & dry philosophy as punishment. Why you try to make them feel

guilty? Do you really want to help them advance or what else is your motive?

 

> There may not be at this time clearly apparent pure devotees in ISKCON (of

> course that depends on who you are, many disciples may be convinced that

> their gurus are completely pure). But as you pointed out earlier, there

> are some devotees who are very sincere, and who certainly appear to be

> getting there. I beleive that Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON will eventualy

> reveal its own pure devotees.

 

I don´t know either if there are uttama-adhikaris in ISKCON. But I´m fully

convinced that there are plenty of real BONA FIDE Gurus there, and this is

my whole point I´m trying to make here. So this means in practice, perhaps

your guru is, let´s say, a Madhyama-adhikari, he is bona fide to connect you

through the parampara ultimately with Krsna. And if he is just repeating the

teachings of Srila Prabhupada, who is our ultimate uttama-adhikari (I hope

we can agree on that?) and siksa guru - then why should it be impossible for

us to reach Krsna? As Janesvara Prabhu keeps pointing out with ever-fresh

enthusiasm, everything (needed for spiritual advancement) is there in

Prabhupada´s books, and by reading his books you are associating with an

uttama-adhikari, or what do you think?

 

Here is a very nice verse from SB (4.12.33) where Prabhupada composed an

unusual and interesting purport:

 

VERSE: "The great associates of Vaikunthaloka, Nanda and Sunanda, could

understand the mind of Dhruva Maharaja, and thus they showed him that his

mother, Suniti, was going forward in another plane."

 

PURPORT: "This incident proves that the siksa- or diksa-guru who has a

disciple who strongly executes devotional service like Dhruva Maharaja can

be carried by the disciple even though the instructor is not as advanced.

Although Suniti was an instructor to Dhruva Maharaja, she could not go to

the forest because she was a woman, nor could she execute austerities and

penances as Dhruva Maharaja did. Still, Dhruva Maharaja was able to take his

mother with him. Similarly, Prahlada Maharaja also delivered his atheistic

father, Hiranyakasipu. The conclusion is that a disciple or an offspring who

is a very strong devotee can carry with him to Vaikunthaloka either his

father, mother or siksa- or diksa- guru. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

Thakura used to say, "If I could perfectly deliver even one soul back home,

back to Godhead, I would think my mission - propagating Krsna consciousness-

to be successful." The Krsna consciousness movement is spreading now all

over the world, and sometimes I think that even though I am crippled in many

ways, if one of my disciples becomes as strong as Dhruva Maharaja, then he

will be able to carry me with him to Vaikunthaloka."

 

 

> This is a troublesome time for the world, and maybe we need to go through

> a period of introspections and cleansing (hey I am not suggesting anykind

> of ethnic guru/disciple cleansing here, ok prabhus. I am honestly not

> creating Psycho sadhus, replete with dripping blades, and my name is not

> Sambosovitch even if my sons name (Sudama) does sound a lot like Saddam,

> but maybe we could create something like...... THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

> [That was for all Monty Python fans out there] Burn all infidels and

> heretics, so say I.... Self rightous humility is the way! Actualy humility

> never got anyone anywhere...

 

I´m getting scared of you, Samba Prabhu - good luck for me that you are so

far away in Mauritius! :-)

 

> Every morning we sing 'Nikunja-yuno rati keli siddhyai', that the

> spiritual master is very dear because he is expert in assisting the gopis,

> who at different times make different tasteful arrangements for the

> perfection of Radha and Krsna's conjugal loving affairs, within the groves

> of Vrindavana.

 

Good luck in finding such a guru! How do you want to verify his position?

I´ve heard once that only an uttama can recognize another uttama...

But as we discussed before, we have our Srila Prabhupada - why not meditate

on him while singing this guru-song in the morning?

 

> A pure devotee, is an INTIMATE associate of the Lord. It is very lofty. So

> it makes sense (at least to me) that if we want Krsna with any urgency, we

> really need to find someone who has him, who speaks with him directly.

 

Again, this is not the verdict of sastra. Even though I´m not that expert on

sastra, but I can´t think of a single passage that I ever read or heard

during my whole time in this movement (by now more than 11 years) that would

declare this to be an essential characeristic for a spiritual master, but

maybe you can teach me a lesson in this regard?

 

Personally I believe that many of us (not necessarily you) are just getting

too much paranoia in view of the disasterous condition of ISKCON right now.

Natural doubts are arising, "there must be something wrong here; so many

scandals coming up, so many (actually not soo many!) gurus and sannyasis are

falling down - perhaps they are all BOGUS?? And thus we find suddenly

politically motivated persons intruding our movement spreading all kinds of

concocted philosophies, recruiting followers,...what to do?

 

> Prabhu I am sorry to say that I am far from an authority on this. I lack a

> lot of personal purity so anything I say will not have any potency. Also I

> really dont have the time nowadays to get into all this, and I am afraid

> of making offences. Somehow I have really offended Mahanidhi prabhu, and

> he seems to be convinced I am out to get him. I am even scared to answer

> directly to his texts (I'm sure he'll get me for that one;-).

 

Ah, don´t be afraid of Mahanidhi Prabhu. "Dogs that bark don´t bite" :-)

He is a nice and humorous chap, I think.

 

> Recently I have been thinking (yet again) of leaving this conference (so

> many texts every day, I have worn out three delete keys already...even the

> keyboard casing is starting to crack in that area!) but I do want to hear

> about the 'green' side of things. I am making a transition in my life

> right now to farming, and getting quite busy in that area. Somehow I seem

> to get drawn into these kinds of philosophical debates, and when I do I

> wish I hadn't.

 

Happy farming then - Haribool!

 

Your servant

Vedanta-krit dasa