Guest guest Posted July 14, 1999 Report Share Posted July 14, 1999 Prashant Parikh wrote: > So I have the following questions: > > 1) If I have not fallen from Vaikuntha then is my soul ( which > is encaged) in my material body ( correct? ) in the material > world or the spiritual world ? The soul is called Krishnas marginal energy. That means it can be either in the spiritual world or in the mateiral world. It is always in the spiritual world because it's part of Krishna's internal energy, but by it's consciousness, distorted through the false ego, it can be absorbed in the material world and thus think it is part of that world. It is said, asango hy ayam purushah iti sruteh--The living entity is not really connected with the material world, but due to his tendency to enjoy the material senses he is put into material cindition. (source unknown) So the soul never falls from Vaikuntha; it leaves voluntarily by transferring it's consciousness to matter. It doesn't really leave, only it's consciousness leaves by becoming covered by forgetfulness of its original state. It is like you are sitting with a friend but you are far away in your own thoughts. He may be talking to you but you don't hear it, for you are somewhere else. You are there in your body, but your mind is in another place. Everyone has that experience. Similarly we are sitting in the spiritual world, but our minds are absorbed in material existence.The soul with its pure consciousness is situated in Vaikuntha. It has just forgotten. > 2) If my ( and everyone else's) soul is in the spiritual world > then why do we always say " Back to Godhead" , since we are > already in the spiritual world and not the material world . We are already in the spiritual world, but we have to bring our consciousness back there, too. > 3) The material world is a part of the spiritual sky > ( 3/4 spiritual world, 1/4 spiritual world), so > the spiritual world is different from the material world. > I am in a world which has birth,death,oldage and disease, > so ( my body and soul) are both in the material world, correct? According to the 'asango hy yam purushah' verse the soul is never in the material world, it cannot be touched by matter, but, as I understand it, its consciousness can become distorted into material thinking, by its desire to enjoy independently from Krishna. > Or is it that my body is in the material world but my soul in > the spiritual world. I don't know how that could be possible, I > am simply speculating here ! How it can be possible, we'll only be able to understand when we have become sufficiently purified and have regained our spiritual status. But just because we cannot understand it doesn't mean we cannot accept it. We should be able to accommodate conflicting ideas in the mind when we deal with spiritual matters. Otherwise we are bound to become confused. We just have to accept that some workings of Krishna's energy is completely beyond our ability to comprehend. > Can someone please answer these qs and help me understand > better. I don't know if this have been of any help. I have been thinking a lot of this issue, and I have come to the conclusion that, since I don't know the answer, it is my duty to take it from Srila Prabhupada. To me it seems Srila Prabhupada says that we come from Krishna's lila. My duty is to understand with my intelligence how Srila Prabhupada could be right when he says that, not how he could be worng. As a follower of Srila Prabhupada I find it irrelevant what other sampradayas or the babajis in Radhakund teach about the subject. I want to understand reality from Srila Prabhupada, not anyone else. In particular I don't want to understand that which is acintya from anyone else than Srila Prabhupada. Here Srila Prabhupada speaks on the subject:: Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53 TRANSLATION The brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. PURPORT by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada As stated in Bhagavad-gita (7.27): iccha-dvesa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa "O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varaha purana, He expands Himself in visnu-tattva (the svamsa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the ibhinnamsa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the prema-vivarta it is said: krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead. By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer. That is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body. Wanting to take a very exalted position, the living entity instead becomes entangled in a repetition of birth and death. He selects his position as a human being, a demigod, a cat, a dog, a tree, etc. In this way the living entity selects a body out of the 8,400,000 forms and tries to satisfy himself by a variety of material enjoyment. The Supersoul, however, does not like him to do this. Consequently, the Supersoul instructs him to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Lord then takes charge of the living entity. But unless the living entity is uncontaminated by material desires, he cannot surrender to the Supreme Lord. In Bhagavad-gita (5.29) the Lord says: bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sa rva-loka-mahesvaram suhrdam sarva-bhutanam jnatva mam santim rcchati "The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries." The Supreme Lord is the supreme friend of everyone; however, no one can take advantage of the supreme friend's instructions while making his own plans to become happy and entangling himself in the modes of material nature. When there is creation, the living entities take on different forms according to past desires. This means that all the species or forms of life are simultaneously created. Darwin's theory stating that no human being existed from the beginning but that humans evolved after many, many years is simply a nonsensical theory. From Vedic literature we find that the first creature within the universe is Lord Brahma. Being the most intelligent personality, Lord Brahma could take charge of creating all the variety found within this material world. © 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (Text 903551) ------------- Letter to: Upendra : 69-10-27 Tittenhurst The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease. © 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (Text 903635) ------------- -------------------------------- --------- Room Conversation Los Angeles, June 23, 1975 750623RC.LA Dr. John Mize: Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they're not foolish, they don't fall down? Prabhupada: No, there are... Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down. Dr. John Mize: So we're among the 10%. Prabhupada: Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are... Just like in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few falls down. Dr. John Mize: Does Krsna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall? Prabhupada: Krsna? Yes, Krsna may know because He is omniscient. Dr. John Mize: Are more souls falling all the time? Prabhupada: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence... Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing..." Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency. Dr. John Mize: The origin of that tendency is...? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. John Mize: From where does that tendency come? Prabhupada: Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says, yathecchasi tatha kuru. "Now you do whatever you like." Jayatirtha: Because Krsna is independent, therefore the part and parcels... Prabhupada: Yes. Part and parcel must have a little portion of independence. Qualitatively, part and parcel means... Just like you take a drop of water from the sea. The, all the chemical composition is there in the drop. So Krsna is fully independent. So we living entities we are drop. Still, the independence quality is there in minute quantity. Dr. John Mize: But Krsna has no tendency to fall, whereas we do. Prabhupada: No. Because Krsna is God. Therefore He is all good. Even He falls down, to our estimation, it is not fall down. (break) ...cannot judge God. If we are devotee, in all circumstances we shall glorify God, "You are all-good." That is devotee. You cannot criticize God, "Oh, You are doing such thing," no. Dr. John Mize: I'm still puzzled about the relationship of the soul to God. If the soul is eternal, as God is, and yet some souls have the tendency to fall and others don't have that tendency... Prabhupada: No, no, eternal does not mean not fall. Suppose you are now professor. So you can fall down from your position. But that does not mean you are not eternal. If you are fall down from your position, you do not lose your eternity. You simply fall down. You can become a professor; you can become an ordinary man. But you are eternal in all circumstance. Eternal... Fall down does not mean that he loses his eternal. That is stated that na hanyate hanyamane sarire. Find out. Ajo nityah sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire. Na jayate na mriyate va kadacit. The living entity is never born or it never dies. This is eternity. You change your body, but you eternal. Dr. John Mize: It's so puzzling, though, why I would spend eternity... Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore he requires that sattva-guna qualification. Dr. John Mize: The what qualification? Prabhupada: That sattva-guna, goodness. Dr. John Mize: I'm sorry... Prabhupada: Goodness. Dr. John Mize: Goodness? Bahulasva: The mode of goodness. Prabhupada: Mode of goodness. Just like not that everyone can become a philosophy professor. It requires certain qualification. But everyone can become also. Everyone got the chance. Provided he is qualified, then he can take the post of a philosophy professor. Everyone has got the chance, not that you have got only the chance. Anyone has got the chance. But not that without having a certain qualification, one can become. Similarly, these thing will remain puzzling unless one comes to the qualification of goodness. Therefore we order our disciples, "Come to the platform of goodness. Give up all this nonsense habit." Then it will be possible. Ys, Jahnu das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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