Guest guest Posted June 21, 1999 Report Share Posted June 21, 1999 "WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2423877 from COM] > > > On 20 Jun 1999, Srila Dasa wrote: > > > > > There's a whole world of advanced Vaisnavas outside our self-conceive > sectarian walls. > > > > > On 20 Jun 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote: > > > > Name two. > > > > How about me and my Welsh Terrier, Tomar -- who, by the way, is becoming quite > elderly in dog years. Jaya! All glories to Sthita-dhi and Tomar Goswami!! your servant, Hare Krsna dasi P.S. Has Tomar Maharaja related to you the pastimes of Sivananda Sen's dog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 1999 Report Share Posted June 21, 1999 "WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2424582 from COM] > > There are many important issues that you bring up, but I fear that all > discussion will be a waste of time unless we have sufficient respect for not > only the subject (ie, proposing a dog as high-class association makes it a > joke) but also for the participants. HK dasi comments: Guilty! Sorry, I'm guilty of frivolous behaviour. So I apologize. Thing is with me, I'm always suspecting that lots of people are great devotees. You see, I allow for a few mistakes by my great devotees. Even Bhismadeva made a great offence, and yet everyone including me considers him to be one of the greatest devotees every. My strongest suspicion is that even within ISKCON there are many great devotees that people are not really aware of. I'll name only 2 out of a dozen or so I could think of: Nagaraja dasa at Back to Godhead and Kaulini dasi at Gita-nagari I know they are advanced. Very humble, too. And there's lots more where they came from. What about Aradhya dasi? What about Harakanta dasi? What about Jyotirmayi dasi? There are actually lots and lots of them. There are lots more men also, but I didn't want to name anyone who is already a guru, and I don't want to name anyone on this conference. Also, I know a lot of women, just because that's who I hang out with a lot. Maybe it's just because I'm so unadvanced, but every time I associate with devotees like this, I become very inspired. Just to be around them makes me feel like the biggest fool and pretend devotee -- because they are so much more sincere and so much more advanced than I am. I think ISKCON's biggest problem is that it is letting too many valuable spiritual resources go under utilized. If we would actually recognize more of these hidden devotees and make them gurus, I think that many of our current problems would disolve. Of course, the first step would be to have a guru selection training program. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi > > > Dasanudasa, > > Srila dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 1999 Report Share Posted June 22, 1999 On 21 Jun 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > > P.S. Has Tomar Maharani related to you the pastimes of Sivananda Sen's dog? > > Unfortunately for us fallen souls, she keeps her realizations internal. Woof! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 1999 Report Share Posted June 22, 1999 > It is a great offense to call an honest man a thief. > From my own experience and observation, I can confidently state that you > don't know WHO or WHAT you are talking about. Please be careful. > For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and accepting > a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided lack of > humility, remorse and introspection. > Dasanudasa, > Srila dasa I think we better leave it up to Krsna, to decide WHO was or is a bonafide or NON bonafide spiritual master, otherwise it may happen that we dont know WHO or WHAT we are talking about... Dasanudasa Harsi das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 1999 Report Share Posted June 26, 1999 On June 22, Harsi das wrote: > I think we better leave it up to Krsna, to decide WHO was or is a bonafide or NON bonafide spiritual master, otherwise it may happen that we dont know WHO or WHAT we are talking about... I suppose my caution to Mahanidhi prabhu also extends to you, judging by your former spiritual master (HKS). On that note, it would seem well warranted for you to become a little more introspective and soul-searching as how you will fill the vacuum in your lif that has now become more apparent since Harikesa Swami's apostasy (spiritual demise). In Upadesamrta, Srila Rupa Goswami enjoins a serious spiritual aspirant (krsneti manasadrieyta...) to properly associate with devotees by learning how to discriminate between the various classes of Vaisnavas -- kanistha adhikari, madhyama adhikari and uttama-adhikari. In his purport to this critical verse, Srila Prabhupada points out the importance of accepting the 1st class Vaisnava as one's spiritual master. If one has mistaken a 2nd or 3rd class devotee (kanisthas can also be very impressive) for a uttama, besides being unfortunate, this indicates the candidate has not yet realized the practical purport to Rupa Goswami's instruction. One therefore NEEDS the compassionate association of a truly qualified sadhu to advance progressively on the path of spiritual understanding. In this connection, Rupa Goswami's instruction also applies to Srila Prabhupada's disciples as well as to other disciples of ISKCON gurus who have accepted a guru who is not sufficiently qualified, even that guru may not be considered "fallen" by GBC standards. The GBC approval system certifies a prospective initiating guru merely as "not fallen," but this says little about his actual qualification to guide and act as sad-guru. Dynamic association with highly advanced sadhus (siksa-gurus) is absolutely necessary at every stage of our spiritual life, especially for neophyte practitioners. Prabhupada's disciples are in no less of a perilous condition being bereft of the manifest siksa-guru in their life. Welcome to the lonely hearts club! But let's not remain there... Find highly advanced devotees and associate with them. As a final note, I always considered Harikesa Prabhu my friend and benefactor. However, we can mince no words when it comes to a proper philosophical understanding: Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a genuinely qualified (ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable of delivering his disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa). That Harikesa performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands of followers along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka, etc.) no doubt. But a *bonafide* guru? We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now? Speaking frankly, Srila dasa > > It is a great offense to call an honest man a thief. > > From my own experience and observation, I can confidently state that you don't know WHO or WHAT you are talking about. Please be careful. > > For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided lack of humility, remorse and introspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 1999 Report Share Posted June 27, 1999 On 26 Jun 1999, Srila Dasa wrote: > > I suppose my caution to Mahanidhi prabhu also extends to you, judging by your former spiritual master (HKS). On that note, it would seem well warranted for you to become a little more introspective and soul-searching as how you will fill the vacuum in your lif that has now become more apparent since Harikesa Swami's apostasy (spiritual demise). > In my opinion, this attitude is extremely obnoxious -- and follwing humbly in your line I plea I am only speaking the harsh truth. Who are we to judge the vacume or non-vacume in the life of another Vaisnava? Who is to say those who took diksa from one devotee had absolutely no sense of siksa with Srila Prabhupada or any of his other senior men? That we might take diksa or siksa from one devotee does not justify an offensive attitude towards others. Have we learned nothing from our experience within ISKCON in the early '80's? > > In this connection, Rupa Goswami's instruction also applies to Srila > Prabhupada's disciples as well as to other disciples of ISKCON gurus who have accepted a guru who is not sufficiently qualified, even that guru may not be considered "fallen" by GBC standards. > I believe better to allow the prospective disciples judge such things for themselves, based on guru/sadhu and sastra. Not that we proclaim everyone unqualified excect for our favorite personal choice. Fortunately, all these unqualified Prabhupada disciples had an uttama guru, and thus they are surely saved. Without a doubt, getting the association of such 'saved' devotees could be considered auspicious even by ISKCON's most voracious critics. > The GBC approval system certifies a prospective initiating guru merely as "not fallen," but this says little about his actual qualification to guide and act as sad-guru. > The GBC is not in the business of labeling the relationship between the devotees and both Krsna and Srila Prabhupada as either 'pure' or 'impure'. But it does appear to be an activity that you seem to maintain full enthusiasm for. The guru/disciple relationship is both a personal and intimate exchange. The GBC is not attempting to beaurocratize this most significant relationship. On the other hand, the GBC has stated they will recognize such relationships within the institution if at least a certain minimum standard of Vaisvava behaviour is properly maintained. They are not presenting themselves as bestowers of gurudom as if they held some exclusive franchise on behalf of Lord Caitanya. > Dynamic association > with highly advanced sadhus (siksa-gurus) is absolutely necessary at every stage of our spiritual life, especially for neophyte practitioners. > I am concerned that you appear to want to make it your mission to convince those of us working within ISKCON that we are not getting spiritual nourishment within our current association. It almost appears as if you wish to become our orginizational big brother. Some may be satisfied, others may look elsewhere, that is okay by me. But a certain righteous canvassing mentality is somewhat awkward to place within the confines of Vaisvava ettiquete. > Prabhupada's disciples are in no less of a perilous condition being bereft of the manifest siksa-guru in their life. Welcome to the lonely hearts club! But let's not remain there... Find highly advanced devotees and associate with them. > First, we minimize both Prabhupada and the Vaisnava siddhanta to say one is bereft of his spiritual masters association simply due to a physical absense. Even when Prabhuada was on the planet, expecially during his later years while in the West, he was not so readily available in his physical form. He did say he was available to his disciples by other means. That you find yourself in Prabhupada's association with someone who is not Srila Prabhupada is your personal experience, apparently. I find it hard to believe Prabhupada is limitting his association through only one such venue. It is definitely not my experience. > Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a genuinely qualified > (ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable of delivering his disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa). That Harikesa performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands of followers along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka, etc.) no doubt. But a *bonafide* guru? > There are many levels from which devotees can offer instructions. That Harikesa was not an infallible pure devotee was apparent to many long before the current debacle. That he attempted to serve Srila Prabhupada according to his utmost capacity was also always appreciated by the senior Vaisnavas. Krsna remains God, and Prabhupada remains the founder/acarya of this particular ISKCON institution. > We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now? > > Let Prabhupada judge in the ultimate sense. Harikesa Prabhu is his initiated disciple, not ours. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 Srila Prabhu wrote on 26.06.99 >> On June 22, Harsi das wrote: >> I think we better leave it up to Krsna, to decide WHO was or is a bonafide >> or NON bonafide spiritual master, otherwise it may happen that we dont know >> WHO or WHAT we are talking about... > I suppose my caution to Mahanidhi prabhu also extends to you, judging by > your former spiritual master (HKS). On that note, it would seem well > warranted for you to become a little more introspective and soul-searching > as how you will fill the vacuum in your life that has now become more > apparent since Harikesa Swami's apostasy (spiritual demise). Since Krishna is the Ultimate source of knowledge and judgement, and not merely our own subjective criticism, maybe you would be so kind to tell us a vers by Him which supports your stantpoint in this matter, otherwise my above statement still remains valid. > In Upadesamrta, Srila Rupa Goswami enjoins a serious spiritual aspirant > (krsneti manasadrieyta...) to properly associate with devotees by learning > how to discriminate between the various classes of Vaisnavas -- kanistha > adhikari, madhyama adhikari and uttama-adhikari. In his purport to this > critical verse, Srila Prabhupada points out the importance of accepting the > 1st class Vaisnava as one's spiritual master. If one has mistaken a 2nd or > 3rd class devotee (kanisthas can also be very impressive) for a uttama, > besides being unfortunate, this indicates the candidate has not yet realized > the practical purport to Rupa Goswami's instruction. One therefore NEEDS > the compassionate association of a truly qualified sadhu to advance > progressively on the path of spiritual understanding. Maybe or maybe not, is only a Uttama adhikari a bonafide spiritual master? I guess than we can forget about taking initiation from a spiritual master in ISKCON. Or forget about liberation from the bondage of birth and death until a bonafide utama adhikari like Srila Prabhupada apears again. What makes Srila Prabhupada a uthama adhikari? Just an inocent question. > In this connection, Rupa Goswami's instruction also applies to Srila > Prabhupada's disciples as well as to other disciples of ISKCON gurus who > have accepted a guru who is not sufficiently qualified, even that guru may > not be considered "fallen" by GBC standards. The GBC approval system > certifies a prospective initiating guru merely as "not fallen," but this > says little about his actual qualification to guide and act as sad-guru. On what basis do you judge the qualifications of a "bonafide" or "sufficiently qualified" guru? If a guru teaches acording to the vedic standarts, is it not up to his disciples to decide if they find him to be bonafide or sufficiently qualified? > Dynamic association with highly advanced sadhus (siksa-gurus) is absolutely > necessary at every stage of our spiritual life, especially for neophyte > practitioners. No doubt about it. What is your definition of "highly adavanced sadhus"? > Prabhupada's disciples are in no less of a perilous condition being bereft > of the manifest siksa-guru in their life. Welcome to the lonely hearts club! > But let's not remain there... Find highly advanced devotees and associate > with them. I dont feel lonely, rather I feel Krsnas presence everywhere. And highly advanced devotees I find are also in this conference. I apreciate you also and like your association on COM, of course I asociate privately also with other highly advanced devotees, some are also spiritual masters and have their disciples. > As a final note, I always considered Harikesa Prabhu my friend and > benefactor. > However, we can mince no words when it comes to a proper philosophical > understanding: Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a genuinely qualified > (ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable of delivering his > disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa). Since you dont back up your statements with any versis from Krsna, guru, sadhu or sastra, which can be aplyd to him, I cannot but conclude that this is your personal subjective criticism wich in this case has no value whatsoever for me. > That Harikesa performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands < of followers along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka, > etc.) no doubt. But a *bonafide* guru? > We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now? Yes judje by the result: what is he doing now? Still Chanting Hare Krisna and worshiping Krsna, or do you have some other informations? Then let me know it. Ys Harsi das > Speaking frankly, > Srila dasa > > It is a great offense to call an honest man a thief. > > From my own experience and observation, I can confidently state that you don't know WHO or WHAT you are talking about. Please be careful. > > For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided lack of humility, remorse and introspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Srila prabhu wrote: >For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and >accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided >lack of humility, remorse and introspection. Dear Srila Prabhu, I was greatly saddened to read the text above. It does not fit with the compassionate person I know you to be. How many of us had a *clue* about how to judge a spiritual master when we first came in contact with devotees? I would have expected you to take a much humbler position and to admit that you were simply incredibly lucky to have joined ISKCON while Prabhupada was still on the planet. Let's not be so judgmental of each other. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 > Srila prabhu wrote: > > >For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and > >accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a > >decided lack of humility, remorse and introspection. > > Dear Srila Prabhu, > > I was greatly saddened to read the text above. It does not fit with the > compassionate person I know you to be. Personaly I did not read this comment of Srila Prabhu as an insult. When Jayatirtha left, I also realised that I had made a great mistake, and did feel very sorry for myself, as well as (at least initialy) sorry for him. Later I realised that Jayatirtha had probabaly NEVER *really* understood Krsna Consciousness. In retrospect, hearing the comments HKS made about Srila Prabhupada, does make me wonder if he really understood also. Surrendering in spiritual life is often a very complicated task, and our motivations, and evolution (or devolution) of consciousness just adds to the complexity. Yes if we are simple, it can be simple. But looking at people like Jayatirtha, Kirtananda, Harikesa etc. we see a lot of complexity. They did great service undoubtedly, but then they really let people down too, people who had the highest expectations of them, people who they lead to beleive should have the highest expectations. So It would seem appropriate that someone whose guru fell down, should feel, humility, remorse and introspection. Hey, I almost forgot, arent we all supposed to be possessed of these qualities all the time? What to speak of when we face a major reversal? Sometimes I feel that we so readily identify ourselves as being rightous perceivers of the truth, that we fail to remember that real sainthood is characterised by great humility, great remorse at our being here in this world of sinners, and great introspection at our perceived failure to actualy be saints. We are so ready to set the guns blazing on senior people whom we have very little actual personal realisation of their position, other than popular hearsay. Part of the varnasrama system is to recognise and act with humility towards ones seniors. If we dont do that then varnasrama can never be upheld. Even if those seniors may deviate, OK we do not have to take shelter, but still we offer respect. Did many of our leaders not commit a grave aparadha when they insulted Pradyumna Prabhu? Will they not have to pay the price? At this time in my life (June 99) I am personaly (for what it is worth) not advocating that anyone leave ISKCON to take shelter of another Gaudiya Vaisnava. Surely Srila Prabhupada warned us not to take shelter outside? Hearing from elevated sadhus is to be reccomended. But if a supposed sadhu, is after many followers, so much so that they resort to pilfering them from Srila Prabhupadas movement and reinitiating them, obviously that is not good. I am not saying that anyone in particular is doing this, I dont know. But if someone is doing this and we personaly see this, then we know to offer respect, but stay away. I would personaly advise, that if we have not ourselves reached actual sainthood (and if we had we would refrain from bandying about unverified and dubious information as actual fact) and if we are not interested in personaly verifying, then it would be best to remain silent rather than cast aspersions on the position of other senior people. Some in ISKCON seem to sometimes lack the kind of gravity that Srila Prabhu reminds us we should have. The camaraderie of years together, has made us somewhat irreverant even towards one another, what to speak of perceived outsiders. He is right we do have to be very careful, especialy when rumours that what we sometimes hear on the ISKCON grapvine, come from ill motivated sources. As long as leaders maintain their positions out of pride, we will have to be very wary. In any case, the fact remains that we get the association we desire. As long as we do not desire the association of pure devotees, we will not get it. Even some of Srila Prabhupadas disciples, as has been pointed out, often did not take advantage of the fact that they were initiated by the purest type of devotee. They basicaly wasted their opportunity. If we really desire a pure devotee, the Lord will manifest one for us, as he promises to deliver anyone who aspires genuinely for his shelter. > I would have expected you to take a much humbler position and > to admit that you were simply incredibly lucky to have joined ISKCON while > Prabhupada was still on the planet. Let's not be so judgmental of each > other. While there is no doubt that Srila Prabhu is one lucky prabhu in having received initation from Srila Prabhupada, this does not mean that we cannot also be as lucky. Pure devotees are all very very special, and if we really do want one, Krsna will send one. So Srila Prabhu, and all his godbrothers, do not have the monopoly on luck. We get what we really really want, really. YS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 On 29 Jun 1999, Samba das wrote: > > Some in ISKCON seem to sometimes lack the kind of gravity that Srila Prabhu reminds us we should have. > Curiously, some of those who might consider themselves outside sometimes seem to be full of themselves with it. > > We get what we really really want, really. > No doubt about it. So we need to be careful to become good followers, and not simply in name. There is more to it all than feeling we've joined a pure devotee's 'gentleman's club'. ys, Sthita-dhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Samba wrote: >We get what we really really want, really. That seems like another very harsh statement. Is that how you explain the horrible child abuse, domestic violence and murders that have happened in ISKCON too? One of the reasons I found KC philosophy so attractive originally, was that it could explain why "bad things happen to good people" - but the reason I read had nothing to do with *wanting* them to happen. It was your past karma. There were so many reasons people took initiation from certain gurus, especially in the early zonal acarya days. Peer pressure, pressure by authorities, *no choice* of guru (combined with a belief that you could not go Home unless you were initiated) etc. are but three. Let's not be so judgmental of others. Although I pray it won't be the case, tomorrow it may be your turn to experience the same thing. I for one will assume that watching your guru fall is not something very many devotees "really, really, really" wanted, just like those children did not want to be beaten black and blue, anallly raped, forced to wear their urinated-upon underwear on their head, having cockroaches stuck up their noses, being tied up like dogs, eat vomited foods, having their arms broken, or being yelled at. Please lets have some compassion here. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 On 29 Jun 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > Samba wrote: > >We get what we really really want, really. > > That seems like another very harsh statement. Is that how you explain the > horrible child abuse, domestic violence and murders that have happened in > ISKCON too? I don't think that is what Samba Prabhu was implying, knowing him what little I do. I am sure he will clarify his statement soon. > There were so many reasons people took initiation from certain gurus, > especially in the early zonal acarya days. Peer pressure, pressure by > authorities, *no choice* of guru (combined with a belief that you could > not go Home unless you were initiated) etc. are but three. Let's not be > so judgmental of others. We have a right to judge our leaders and make changes through civil involvement and group action (voting). >Although I pray it won't be the case, tomorrow it > may be your turn to experience the same thing. I for one will assume that > watching your guru fall is not something very many devotees "really, > really, really" wanted, just like those children did not want to be beaten > black and blue, anallly raped, forced to wear their urinated-upon underwear > on their head, having cockroaches stuck up their noses, being tied up like > dogs, eat vomited foods, having their arms broken, or being yelled at. No victim can be held responsible for such crimes regardless of their "karma" considerations; that is between them and the Lord. The criminals who perpetrated such acts must be held accountable and retribution must be administered by proper authority now and must be instituted to avoid all future attempts. Bad leaders are responsible for such things. They have to accept a portion of the karma of all of their citizens. If they do not manage properly their karmic reaction is that much heavier. Conspiratorial or even passive supporters and knowing-but-ignoring leaders and co-leaders are just as responsible and will "pay" one way or another - either before they go to Yamaraja's court which is the Vedic program of compassion or in Yama's court upon death. ISKCON stands to suffer terribly at the hands of ruthless legal titans because they have weakly failed to root out the criminals and blind supporters of these crimes. There is no greater evidence of their arrogance and defenseless ignorance when they continue to allow such criminals into positions of authority or praise like Bhavananda in Sydney. This will be taken by legal authorities of proof of ISKCON's inability to govern itself and its innocent and defenseless members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 > > Personaly I did not read this comment of Srila Prabhu as an insult. When > Jayatirtha left, I also realised that I had made a great mistake, and did Do you think that your personal realization about your own life is ought to be "also" the realization of everybody else? That Jayatirtha is Harikesa? That Samba is Mahanidhi? That Samba's life is Mahanidhi's life? What do we know about other peoples' life mistakes? Neither you nor Srila das have absolutely NO idea what could come out of me if I haven't done as I have done, 14 years ago. Not even the *slightest* idea. But you got to instruct. What the grave "mistake" I ought not to commit in my life. But you know just NOTHING about my life condition from 14 years ago. When shall we stop playing the role of the Supersoul in the people's hearts? Can't do anything good by judging their lifes and the life "mistakes" here, so leave it. Leave it to God. Don't play with it. > > So It would seem appropriate that someone whose guru fell down, should > feel, humility, remorse and introspection. Hey, I almost forgot, arent we > all supposed to be possessed of these qualities all the time? What to > speak of when we face a major reversal? I nevertheless preserve the right for myself to differentiate between an actual wellwisher of mine and somebody who is using this most unfortunate incident of my life as simply the mean of securing the position for himself when debating me, to shut me down on that way. (Please do not try to convince me that I am wrong in my perceptions here.) I do not want to listen about "humility" and "introspection" from the people who do not even respect other people's individuality and integrity. What was the mistake of my life, what was my poor judgment, what is the expectation from me to behave now alike,... All these is NOT the subject for Srila das (or anybody here) to chew on it here in the public, for the sake of wining some argument, or for any other sake anyway. If someone honestly wants to point to me my grave mistakes and help me in that regard, he will approach me -- PRIVATELY. He will not splash his "siddhanta" on my nose in public, in a screaming mood. And then right away the next one who happened to have "HKS" next to his name (Harsi das) got to get the similar treatment simply because he did not agree with whatever Srila das thought he ought to. I am more than sure if I would proclaim here how I am ready to feel up my "obvious vacuum" with Narayana Maharaja, Srila would jubilantly shower me with the flowers, instead. A parody, not more than that. "Humility". Beat the people's head with it. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 On 29 Jun 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote: > > "Humility". Beat the people's head with it. > Allah Akhbar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 > [Text 2433930 from COM] > > Srila prabhu wrote: > > >For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and > >accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided > >lack of humility, remorse and introspection. It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an individual guru may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be now, seems to me to be missing that essesntial point. The connection made at initiation is to the guru as representative of the sampradaya, and is not limited to the guru as individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 > Samba wrote: > >We get what we really really want, really. > > That seems like another very harsh statement. Is that how you explain the > horrible child abuse, domestic violence and murders that have happened in > ISKCON too? Surely this is just basic stuff. I mean everyone got on Glen Hoddle's case (the British football coach) for saying that handicapped people are handicapped because of their karma. So obviously no one wants to be crippled or any of those other things you mentioned. We have desires, and we have karma. We get both simultaneously. Sometimes we get passing desires that come and go. But then we have yearnings. Depending on what we yearn for, what we really want long term, the lord through his agencies will try to accomodate. The Lord sees where we are at, and because he wants us to be happy he awards us bodies or situations where we can try to be happy. When at last he sees that we desire him, he sends us the means to reach him. > > One of the reasons I found KC philosophy so attractive originally, was > that it could explain why "bad things happen to good people" - but the > reason I read had nothing to do with *wanting* them to happen. It was > your past karma. Exactly, but both are there, its our entire problem. We desire the wrong things. And by acting on the wrong desires we get more karma and it goes on. Intellectualy we may accept Krsna Consciousness. but then desire gets in the way, and we often find ourselves desiring sense gratification. > There were so many reasons people took initiation from certain gurus, > especially in the early zonal acarya days. Peer pressure, pressure by > authorities, *no choice* of guru (combined with a belief that you could > not go Home unless you were initiated) etc. are but three. Let's not be > so judgmental of others. I agree we should not be judgemental. But we should be humble, it is the most important prerequisite for spiritual advancement. So while I would hesitate to judge others, we can make a blanket statement that we should all be humble, of course it cant be forced. Humility is very necesary for spiritual life. A person who is actualy humble does not seek to defend himself. Was it Jagganatha das Babaji who surrounded himself with fish bones and alcohol bottles so people would thing he was a materialist? So we were pressured into taking gurus, by people who wanted to cheat us. I mean why else would they coerce us? Not necesarily all the devotees, but certainly some of them had alterior motivations. But Prabhupada explains to us about cheaters and the cheated. I mean Krsna is infallible right, he cant be cheated. And he wants to help us. So if we were really sincere, then nothing could have gotten in our way. If something did get in the way, how could that be, unless we did not really want to surrender all the way. Maybe we wanted spiritual life without the full surrender. Bhagavan once said "if its not a thousand dollars (daily collection) its not devotional service". So maybe some thought that you could go home for $1000 a day. Spritual life is not that cheap. > Please lets have some compassion here. The things you described were certainly horrific. And of course completely unwanted. They are obviously also karmic reactions, as nothing happens without a reason. But that does not mean the the perpetrators do not have to pay, they do, they are also guilty. We are all guilty in this material world. Its a prison. To try to pretend its not is simply sentimental. Compassion is when we remind each other where we are really at. Compassion is the sadhus knife wielding, cutting through the illusion, cutting the hard knot of material attachment. Unfortunately this may be another case where the cold stark reality of text, belies the motivation and mood of the writer. Mahanidhi prabhu sometimes seems to think I am personaly attacking him. I realy yearn for a time when we can actualy have a varnasrama community where we can personaly interact, and prove our sincerity by actions rather than words. Then maybe there would be little use for these cold impersonal machines to communicate. I agree compassion is needed, and we need to overlook each others faults. But at the same time, the philosophy must be upheld, and we have to know where the bottom line is, even if we cannot reach it yet. This conference must surely promote both understandings. Ys Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Madhava Gosh prabhu wrote: > It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an individual > guru may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be now, seems to > me to be missing that essential point. The connection made at initiation is > to the guru as representative of the sampradaya, and is not limited to the > guru as individual. A very good and conclusive statement. All glories to you and your inteligence. Ys Harsi das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 > It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an individual guru may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be now, seems to me to be missing that essesntial point. The connection made at initiation is to the guru as representative of the sampradaya, and is not limited to the guru as individual. Over-emphasis on ANYTHING to the detriment of something else is cause for developing misconceptions and going astray. I think this would be self-evident. The issue at stake here though is the relative value of a guru or sadhu. That of course, depends on the time, person and circumstances. As a basic PRINCIPLE, however, the bona fide *guru* or advanced *sadhu* is supposed to be the LIVING REPRESENTATIVE of the sampradaya. Without proper and bonafide representatives, the SAMPRADAYA is DEAD or UNMANIFEST, to one degree or another. It may be somehow or another surviving or continuing in the form of low-level vaidhi-bhakti, but it is not expanding in a dynamic way. When Mahaprbahu was present with HIs associates, they performed, *prema-sankirtana.* In a similar way, I don't think we can compare what is going on now in ISKCON to the spiritual energy generated in SP's presence. The association (ie, LIVING with them) and presence in this world of empowered and high-class Vaisnavas makes a tremendous difference. What do you think? Srila dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 On 28 Jun 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > Srila prabhu wrote: > >For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and > >accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided lack of humility, remorse and introspection. > > Dear Srila Prabhu, > I was greatly saddened to read the text above. It does not fit with the compassionate person I know you to be. How many of us had a *clue* about how to judge a spiritual master when we first came in contact with > devotees? I would have expected you to take a much humbler position and to admit that you were simply incredibly lucky to have joined ISKCON while Prabhupada was still on the planet. Let's not be so judgmental of each other. Thank you for your kind and well-meaning feedback. I always take your words seriously. I am also sorry if my above statement offends anyone. However, I think it needs to be seen in the context it was made. If I were to sometime see you chastizing your son, wouldn't it be a false conclusion to categorize you as a stern or mean parent? Sometimes there is a need for strong words when the situation is serious enough to call for it, no? Lord Balarama is generally compassionate and forgiving, but he still killed Romaharsana with a straw. So generally, Balalrama does not go around killing people with straws. I am certainly not comparable to Lord Balarama, but when the situation arises, I see it as my service to refute any STRAW-man arguments of hypocrisy and sadhu-ninda as much I possess the knowledge and understanding to do so. When Mahanidhi Prabhu, like Romaharsan, began to disrespect a vastly superior personality in a public forum (here on VAD), heedless of his own precarious condition (having chosen an un-bonafide diksa guru and now without one), the hypocrisy of his position becomes immediately apparent. He was therefore begging for an appropriately stern response. It was my duty to reply. The medicine should match the disease. I might have been able to phrase it better or administered it with greater tact, but strong words were required. Is your chastising of your children always as pleasant as the Vedic hymns? Forgive me for the natural defects in my presentation. But please try to see things in context. Dasanudasa, Srila dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Holy Cow guys! Hey, let's all go outside in the nice warm sun for a while and plant a few seeds- and see what comes up. Maybe even something we could offer to Krsna. There's alot of mercy to be had living life on the land and it really gives one a perspective about what is really important in one's life. Tomatos first, then cucumbers, right? Someone said we should all tend our own gardens and pull our own weeds. Sound advice. Anyways, I think the Siska Guru would make a splendid spiritual guide, Godbless, and Haribol!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 > > I am certainly not comparable to Lord Balarama, but when the situation > arises, I see it as my service to refute any STRAW-man arguments of > hypocrisy and sadhu-ninda as much I possess the knowledge and > understanding to do so. When Mahanidhi Prabhu, like Romaharsan, began to > disrespect a vastly superior personality in a public forum (here on VAD), > heedless of his own precarious condition (having chosen an un-bonafide > diksa guru and now without one), the hypocrisy of his position becomes > immediately apparent. He was therefore begging for an appropriately stern > response. It was my duty to reply. So you have finally exposed here my "STRAW-man arguments" to defeat so soundly, loudly and happily -- the fall down of Harikesa das! He is still a "gold mine", isn't he? Can be exploited even when closed down and dead. Even his bones are still good to chew on. So, I (along with the couple of thousands of others) am not even a sudra, having no diksa-guru, never having any bona-fide guru, no connection to Srila Prabhupada and the Guru Parampara ever being there anyway, in short -- no real identity... So, "Balarama" has mercifully exposed the hypocritical status of such a creature to the assembled sadhus... He couldn't help but use his straw-blade to cut off the head of that hypocritical nonsense who dared to speak infront "Balarama" and the assembly... Keep cutting off the heads around you, Srila. When you remain the only one head speaking, then you can establish anything you say as an undisputable fact and truth... Well, after all this is your duty, being pure brahminical class of this society. "My way or... a straw-blade guillotine" das (it's starting getting funny like this, folk... got no status nor position among the holy ISCKONities, got no head even anymore... so relaxing) PS. to "Balarama": Would it be any satisfying if I (and 2000 of Harikesa's "initiated disciples") would take the initiation from some of the current ISCKON preachers/gurus RIGHT NOW? I mean, Narayana Maharaja said that all sincere devotees have already left ISCKON, and that all are falling down now (sannyasis, gurus, everybody..). So, frankly, what would be then the practical difference? Any use of such a step? Please tell us *all* what to do. Without any hypocrisy, with an appropriately stern response.... It is your duty to reply.. if you don't mind me to remind you. You are a brahmana. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 > As a final note, I always considered Harikesa Prabhu my friend and > benefactor. However, we can mince no words when it comes to a proper > philosophical understanding: Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a > genuinely qualified (ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable > of delivering his disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa). > That Harikesa performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands > of followers along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka, > etc.) no doubt. But a *bonafide* guru? > We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now? > > Speaking frankly, > > Srila dasa A guru of whatever category cannot be anything but bonafide. Have you realized your nitya-svarupa? If not, does that mean Srila Prabhupada is not bonafide? Of course not. What do you know if amongst former Harikesa Swamis disciple some may have realized theirs? How can you tell? If a fruittree stops giving fruit, does that mean it was never a fruittree? PAMHO. AGTSP. respectfully yours Trayimaya dasa, former disciple of former Harikesa Swami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 > > As a basic PRINCIPLE, however, the bona fide *guru* or advanced *sadhu* is > supposed to be the LIVING REPRESENTATIVE of the sampradaya. Thus Srila Prabhupada is not anymore representing sampradaya, and his initiated disciples in PRINCIPLE got no connection with the sampradaya, since they got no LIVING REPRESENTATIVE. Thus Srila Prabhupada is getting out the "picture"... > Without > proper and bonafide representatives, the SAMPRADAYA is DEAD or UNMANIFEST, > to one degree or another. > It may be somehow or another surviving or > continuing in the form of low-level vaidhi-bhakti, but it is not expanding > in a dynamic way. When Mahaprbahu was present with HIs associates, they > performed, *prema-sankirtana.* In a similar way, I don't think we can > compare what is going on now in ISKCON to the spiritual energy generated > in SP's presence. > .... And thus Narayana Maharaja is coming into the "picture", as the necessity for that LIVING REPRESENTATIVE of the sampradaya in ISCKON. The idea being that the SAMPRADAYA is DEAD or UNMANIFETSED, to one degree or another, due to the very departure of Srila Prabhupada. > The association (ie, LIVING with them) and presence in this world of > empowered and high-class Vaisnavas makes a tremendous difference. > > What do you think? > You must be right, Srila prabhu, what else? As you have just pointed out, ISCKON with merely continuing in the form of low-level vaidhi, due to the departure of Srila Prabhupada, cannot fulfill the need of above mentioned association. Well, let me guess only what could be the solution.... Hmmm... I think, maybe... Narayana Maharaja? Right, yes. I got it! What do you think? (may I get beck now my head again, please, please... I am singing the right song now..) a-no-connection-to-the-parampara-ISCKONvadi-fellow, das .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 > > We are all guilty in this material world. Its a prison. To try to pretend > its not is simply sentimental. Compassion is when we remind each other > where we are really at. Compassion is the sadhus knife wielding, cutting > through the illusion, cutting the hard knot of material attachment. > Are you maybe preparing here a scenario for a horror film? You know, a kind of a psycho-horror a'la Hitchcock. Remember that scene from the "Psycho", when the big knife is cutting through the curtain of a dush-cabine, and the screaming blood starts sprinkling all over the place...? ....and the "sadhu" walks out with the compassionate smile on his face, his eyes turned upside-down in trans.. (You know, Samba, just recently you gave us here the "class" about how we should not be playing around cheaply with the expressions like "Vaisnava". And here you are, throwin' around "sadhus" like potatoes when dug out by a tractor, from a 10-hectare field.) > Unfortunately this may be another case where the cold stark reality of > text, belies the motivation and mood of the writer. Mahanidhi prabhu > sometimes seems to think I am personaly attacking him. Has the possibility of you personally attacking somebody ever crossed your mind? Can't be. You are Samba das, after all. And the other one is Mahanidhi das, after all. It's other person's fault to feel sometimes personally attacked. Because he is in illusion, in Sanskrit - maya, "that what is not". (never been in ISCKON before, tell me what is that yellow thing on your nose) What is "cold stark reality" is the matter of a subjective perception. You should have been able to notice that not everybody here would agree with your vision of reality. Unfortunately, we pay no much attention to it. Otherwise how could we maintain our vision of ourselves as uncompromisingly merciful sadhus, a simha-bhaktisiddhanta or a strow-blade-balarama models (boy, what sweet dreams for our tiny and weak intellects)? the sadhu .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 Madhava wrote > It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an > individual guru may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be > now, seems to me to be missing that essesntial point. The connection > made at initiation is to the guru as representative of the sampradaya, > and is not limited to the guru as individual. I agree Your servant, Gokula das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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