Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 On 15 Jul 1999, Harsi das wrote: > > Than would that not mean that ISKCON as an institution would be the guru, like the university or other similar institutions for learning? > And its gurus would be "just" teachers of the ISKCON institution, who > deliver us the knowledge of this spiritual institution and connect us > through initiation in this institution to the guru parampara? > The guru/disciple relatinship is ultimately something personal between two individuals. Srila Prabhupada is the founder/acarya of ISKCON, and the devotees in ISKCON who are offering spiritual shelter within his disciplic succession who are acting as representatives of Srila Prabhupada's line. In other words, both the institution and the individual practitioner are attempting to act on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, but intimate spiritual relationships, or any relationships for that matter, are generally experienced between individuals. Obviously, spiritual masters working within ISKCON are doing just that, working within ISKCON, and as well all know all too well, that requires some special effort. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Dear Harsi prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP.The following is my reply to some of your points recently posted. > >Than would that not mean that ISKCON as an institution would be the guru, >like the university or other similar institutions for learning? >And its gurus would be "just" teachers of the ISKCON institution, who >deliver us the knowledge of this spiritual institution and connect us >through initiation in this institution to the guru parampara? Interesting.But I think this is an unecessarily complicted view.ISKCON gurus are regular gurus.They just work within an instsitution which is supposed to follow Shrila Prabhupada's instructions and plans to spread this mission as far and wide as possible.The fact that ISKCON gurus do this does not diminish their status as guru. >Can an ISKCON guru still be considered a guru in the clasical vedic sence >spoken of by Krsna, and a link to the guru parampara or is it to be >understood that ISKCON as an institution took over this role? ISKCON as an institution is representing Shrila Prabhupada's will.ISKCON gurus are supposed to be doing the same.Gurus are always needed because eveyone needs spiritual guidance on an individual basis.An institution can NEVER replace that. > > "Your love for me," said Srila Prabhupada, "will be shown by how much >you > > cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone." This just means keep going on with the preaching mission and my instructions.Prabhupada knew that as long as the institution survived there would still be preaching on a large scale.That's why he emphasised the institution so much.Why did his guru build an institutuon.??For the same reason of course.Beacuse he also knew that a collection of individuals all working together can achieve so much more than even MANY individual efforts. But it doesen't mean that gurus are now obsolete.I honestly don't know where you extract this from Prabahupada's statement. Hope you found this in some way sensible.Hoping this meets you in the best of health.YOur servant and cousin, Nitaicandra das. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 >"WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA > >On 15 Jul 1999, Harsi das wrote: > > > > > > Than would that not mean that ISKCON as an institution would be the >guru, >like the university or other similar institutions for learning? > > And its gurus would be "just" teachers of the ISKCON institution, who > > deliver us the knowledge of this spiritual institution and connect us > > through initiation in this institution to the guru parampara? > > > > >The guru/disciple relatinship is ultimately something personal between two >individuals. Exactly that's why the guru/discilpe relationship could never be replaced by an institution.It's between 2 individuals as you point out Stitha Dhi prabhu. Srila Prabhupada is the founder/acarya of ISKCON, and the >devotees in ISKCON who are offering spiritual shelter within his disciplic >succession who are acting as representatives of Srila Prabhupada's line. > >In other words, both the institution and the individual practitioner are >attempting to act on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, but intimate spiritual >relationships, or any relationships for that matter, are generally >experienced >between individuals. Obviously, spiritual masters working within ISKCON are >doing just that, working within ISKCON, and as well all know all too well, >that requires some special effort. But it is worth it as it pleases Prabhupada which after all is the perfection of our lives. Your servant and cousin, Nitaicandra das. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 Nitai Candra Prabhu wrote: >> Than would that not mean that ISKCON as an institution would be the guru, >> like the university or other similar institutions for learning? >> And its gurus would be "just" teachers of the ISKCON institution, who >> deliver us the knowledge of this spiritual institution and connect us >> through initiation in this institution to the guru parampara? Haribol Nitai Candra Prabhu Pamho. AgtSP Nice to hear from you. > Interesting. But I think this is an unecessarily complicted view. Why? Were there similar organized institutions for learning spiritual or material knowledge in the vedic times? Or did one rather had to go to the private ashram of one particular guru or teacher? Do the present ISKCON gurus not deliver us the knowledge of the organized institution created by Srila Prabhupada? > ISKCON gurus are regular gurus. What IS a "regular guru" ? Is he not a teacher of spiritual science, or material science? Of course a genuine "teacher" must have realized knowledge in his particular field of knowledge, but neverless I think he can be caled a teacher. The word "guru" means "heavy", heavy with knowledge, so again teacher. Someone from whom one can take assistance for ones spiritual or material life due to his realized knowledge in this matter, isn,t it so? Trivikrama Swami wrote this recently also on VAD. As Srila Prabhupada told Garga Muni in 1977 " I shall remain your guide whether I am physically present or not, just as I am getting guidance from my spiritual master". Now the question is, if the practice in ISKCON, where the disciple is advised to surrender his decision making power, over his own life to ones guru or spiritual guide, is something allways beneficial for him in his life, and was also something wich was done in the vedic times? Some whant to see them as preasts (ritvik) some as regular guru, so I find a fair compromise in this matter would be to consider a guru or a priest to be a teacher or guide of spiritual knowledge or science. > They just work within an institution which is supposed to follow Srila > Prabhupada's instructions and plans to spread this mission as far and wide > as possible. The fact that ISKCON gurus do this does not diminish their > status as guru. I just wanted to mention that a guru or spiritual guide was in the vedic times indipendently situated, whereas in ISKCON I cannot see that this is the case, they are under the control of the institution, like teachers in the university. Isn,t it so? I was not making any judjement, just my observation. >> Can an ISKCON guru still be considered a guru in the clasical vedic sence >> spoken of by Krsna, and a link to the guru parampara or is it to be >> understood that ISKCON as an institution took over this role? > ISKCON as an institution is representing Srila Prabhupada's will.ISKCON > gurus are supposed to be doing the same. Gurus are always needed because > eveyone needs spiritual guidance on an individual basis. An institution > can NEVER replace that. I don,t know why you conclude, that I meant that gurus are not needed anymore, I was just trying to define theyr role in the society of devotees - as spiritual guides or teachers. Of course teaching must be done on an individual basis also, in order that a disciple or "student" (term used also by Prabhupada) can make advancement. The institution can only help in that matter of course, never replace the teacher or guru of a particular field of knowledge. >> "Your love for me," said Srila Prabhupada, "will be shown by how much >> you cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone." > This just means keep going on with the preaching mission and my > instructions. Prabhupada knew that as long as the institution survived > there would still be preaching on a large scale. Why only preaching, why not also teaching? Isn,t that also the role of an educational institution? > That's why he emphasised the institution so much. Why did his guru build > > an institutuon.?? For the same reason of course.Because he also knew that > a collection of individuals all working together can achieve so much more > than even MANY individual efforts. That I can understand. > But it doesen't mean that gurus are now obsolete. Definitely not, that was never my way of thinking, rather to discuss theyr role in the society of devotees and the proper understanding of what a guru could or should be, and what not. I just wanted to start a discussion, on that matter, but it seems the devotees involved herein, are moore or less accepting the role of a spiritual teacher of a guru, therefore I wonder why some still want to go to court and waste millions of dollars, in order that a karmi judge should decide theyr role. Thats above for me to understand, but maybe thats just my personal problem... > I honestly don't know where you extract this from Prabahupada's statement. I never did. > Hope you found this in some way sensible. Certainly, your comments are very dear to me, you are a very nice and sincere devotee of Krsna. My best wishes to you in your spiritual and material life. Your servant Harsi das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 s > > >Nitai Candra Prabhu wrote: > > >> Than would that not mean that ISKCON as an institution would be the >guru, > >> like the university or other similar institutions for learning? > >> And its gurus would be "just" teachers of the ISKCON institution, who > >> deliver us the knowledge of this spiritual institution and connect us > >> through initiation in this institution to the guru parampara? > >Haribol Nitai Candra Prabhu >Pamho. AgtSP > >Nice to hear from you. > > > Interesting. But I think this is an unecessarily complicted view. > >Why? Were there similar organized institutions for learning spiritual or >material knowledge in the vedic times? Or did one rather had to go to the >private ashram of one particular guru or teacher? Do the present ISKCON >gurus not deliver us the knowledge of the organized institution created by >Srila Prabhupada? My dear Harsi prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP.First of all prabhu I would like to say that I am sincerely sorry for jumping to any conclusions.I may have done this and I am very sorry .I would never want to offend you in any way by doing this. Actually your points make a lot of sense. > > ISKCON gurus are regular gurus. > >What IS a "regular guru" ? Is he not a teacher of spiritual science, or >material science? >Of course a genuine "teacher" must have realized knowledge in his >particular >field of knowledge, but neverless I think he can be caled a teacher. >The word "guru" means "heavy", heavy with knowledge, so again teacher. >Someone from whom one can take assistance for ones spiritual or material >life due to his realized knowledge in this matter, isn,t it so? Sure.They are spiritual teachers. >Trivikrama Swami wrote this recently also on VAD. >As Srila Prabhupada told Garga Muni in 1977 " I shall remain your guide >whether I am physically present or not, just as I am getting guidance from >my spiritual master". Yes I agree Prabhupada is always with ALL of us and he occupies a special position in our society because he is the founder acarya. >Now the question is, if the practice in ISKCON, where the disciple is >advised to surrender his decision making power, over his own life to ones >guru or spiritual guide, is something allways beneficial for him in his >life, and was also something wich was done in the vedic times? What exactly do you mean when you say this.Of course we are expected to surrender but we aren't supposed to surrender our inteligence.As my own gurumaharaj has told us "If I light up a joint one day and say to you OK Nitai let's have a party then you certainly don't have to follow me" or "If I say,Nitai,jump of this bridge to your death you don't have to jump because it is not related to devotional service." AS long as our authorities,gurus included,are engaging us nicely in Krishna's service then surrender is always good for us.I imaging this principle has always been the same even in Vedic times.I don't think the principles of the guru/disciple relationship change.What do you think prabhu? >Some whant to see them as preasts (ritvik) some as regular guru, so I find >a >fair compromise in this matter would be to consider a guru or a priest to >be >a teacher or guide of spiritual knowledge or science. Yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a guru as a guide in spiritual life as long as we know what that relationship entails. > > They just work within an institution which is supposed to follow Srila > > Prabhupada's instructions and plans to spread this mission as far and >wide > > as possible. The fact that ISKCON gurus do this does not diminish their > > status as guru. > >I just wanted to mention that a guru or spiritual guide was in the vedic >times indipendently situated, whereas in ISKCON I cannot see that this is >the case, they are under the control of the institution, like teachers in >the university. Isn,t it so? I was not making any judjement, just my >observation. Yes prabhu you ARE right.There is a special situation here.And it is that we are all Prabhupadanugas working within HIS institution and we all gotta tow his party line.His mood must pervade the society and be the mood of all the members,gurus included.And so in that sense yes our leaders ARE representing the institution and are answerable to it. That is always understood.The GBC,as we know,is the ultimate authority in ISKCON even higher than individual spiritual masters.And I KNOW YOU AREN'T suggesting that it does,but it doesen't diminish their role in the disciples lives. > >> Can an ISKCON guru still be considered a guru in the clasical vedic >sence > >> spoken of by Krsna, and a link to the guru parampara or is it to be > >> understood that ISKCON as an institution took over this role? > > > ISKCON as an institution is representing Srila Prabhupada's will.ISKCON > > gurus are supposed to be doing the same. Gurus are always needed because > > eveyone needs spiritual guidance on an individual basis. An institution > > can NEVER replace that. > >I don,t know why you conclude, that I meant that gurus are not needed >anymore, I was just trying to define theyr role in the society of devotees >- Sorry prabhu Harsi for that.That was my conclusion jumping.Please excuse me. >as spiritual guides or teachers. Of course teaching must be done on an >individual basis also, in order that a disciple or "student" (term used >also >by Prabhupada) can make advancement. The institution can only help in that >matter of course, never replace the teacher or guru of a particular field >of >knowledge. Agreed. > >> "Your love for me," said Srila Prabhupada, "will be shown by how much > >> you cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone." > > > This just means keep going on with the preaching mission and my > > instructions. Prabhupada knew that as long as the institution survived > > there would still be preaching on a large scale. > >Why only preaching, why not also teaching? Isn,t that also the role of an >educational institution? Indeed prabhu.There are so many aspects to our society.I was just mentioning the preaching part as this is the essence for which the rest is functioning.Preaching is our family business.If that stops we cease to be the sankirtan mission.Of course for that to take place so much is required,teaching,as you say,and many other things. > > That's why he emphasised the institution so much. Why did his guru build > > > > an institutuon.?? For the same reason of course.Because he also knew >that > > a collection of individuals all working together can achieve so much >more > > than even MANY individual efforts. > >That I can understand. > > > But it doesen't mean that gurus are now obsolete. > >Definitely not, that was never my way of thinking, rather to discuss theyr >role in the society of devotees and the proper understanding of what a guru >could or should be, and what not. Yes and it's a worthy discussion. >I just wanted to start a discussion, on that matter, but it seems the >devotees involved herein, are moore or less accepting the role of a >spiritual teacher of a guru, therefore I wonder why some still want to go >to >court and waste millions of dollars, in order that a karmi judge should >decide theyr role. >Thats above for me to understand, but maybe thats just my personal >problem... > > > I honestly don't know where you extract this from Prabahupada's >statement. >I never did. Again I AM sorry prabhu. > > Hope you found this in some way sensible. >Certainly, your comments are very dear to me, you are a very nice and >sincere devotee of Krsna. The feeling is very much mutual prabhu.Now I'm getting embarrassed.If you only knew me you mightn't say that! >My best wishes to you in your spiritual and material life. Same to you prabhu.Wish you all the best.BTW what do you do,are you married or not?Please tell me about yourself.You are in Romania right?DO tell us about ISKCON where you stay.Hoping this meets you in the best of health. Your servant and cousin, Nitaicandra das. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 > >> Interesting. But I think this is an unecessarily complicted view. > >Why? Were there similar organized institutions for learning spiritual or >material knowledge in the vedic times? Or did one rather had to go to the private ashram of one particular guru or teacher? Do the present ISKCON gurus not deliver us the knowledge of the organized institution created by Srila Prabhupada? > Since Prabhupada left us all his books, and, by the way, strictly speaking the BBT is a separate institution, why does there need to be so much concern of getting transcendental knowledge simply via some institutional directive? Krsna can reveal Himself as He pleases. >Of course a genuine "teacher" must have realized knowledge in his particular >field of knowledge, but neverless I think he can be caled a teacher. >The word "guru" means "heavy", heavy with knowledge, so again teacher. >Someone from whom one can take assistance for ones spiritual or material >life due to his realized knowledge in this matter, isn,t it so? > He can also share knowledge he has received from the realized acaryas. Naturally, in ISKCON, we have in common a particular faith in Prabhupada as our society's founder/acarya. > >Now the question is, if the practice in ISKCON, where the disciple is >advised to surrender his decision making power, over his own life to ones guru or spiritual guide, is something allways beneficial for him in his life, and was also something wich was done in the vedic times? > Better the disciple employ his intelligence in serving guru and Krsna, as compared to signing off on employing his brain at all in the name of spiritual life. > >I just wanted to mention that a guru or spiritual guide was in the vedic >times indipendently situated, whereas in ISKCON I cannot see that this is the case, they are under the control of the institution, like teachers in the university. Isn,t it so? I was not making any judjement, just my >observation. > In Vedic times, the guru or priest was the disciple of his own predecessor guru or priest. In that sense, I don't believe they considered themselves independent. As a ksatriya, yes, one places himself under the control of his superior authority to the point of sacrificing his life on the battlefield (and thus going to heaven.) I don't believe brahmanical life works on the exact same principle. As Prabhupada allegedely said, "Your love for me will be shown by your ability to cooperate to keep this institution together." That does not deny us the opportunity to develop a sense of brahminical introspectiveness. > >I don,t know why you conclude, that I meant that gurus are not needed >anymore, I was just trying to define theyr role in the society of devotees - as spiritual guides or teachers. Of course teaching must be done on an individual basis also, in order that a disciple or "student" (term used also by Prabhupada) can make advancement. The institution can only help in that matter of course, never replace the teacher or guru of a particular field of knowledge. > The brahminical class can certainly teach in a general sense, but entering a guru/disciple relationship is something more personal and intense, in my mind. > >Why only preaching, why not also teaching? Isn,t that also the role of an educational institution? > Yes, thus we need to cultivate a mature and sophisticated culture of brahminical life. These things may take some time. They don't sell kits for it at the K-Mart -- at least not in our neighborhood. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 > >Now the question is, if the practice in ISKCON, where the disciple is >advised to surrender his decision making power, over his own life to ones >guru or spiritual guide, is something allways beneficial for him in his >life, and was also something wich was done in the vedic times? "Better the disciple employ his intelligence in serving guru and Krsna, as compared to signing off on employing his brain at all in the name of spiritual life." I have some problems sometimes in understanding your sophisticated englesh Could you tell us in a moore simple way your above sentence. ys. Harsi das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 1999 Report Share Posted July 22, 1999 On 21 Jul 1999, Harsi das wrote: > I have some problems sometimes in understanding your sophisticated englesh. Could you tell us in a moore simple way your above sentence. > > I don't know much about sophistication, but in my opinion, it might be better to engage one's intelligence with the idea of pleasing the devotees, then thinking that intelligent discrimination is not required. In other words, surrendering one's intelligence to Krsna means using it to please His devotees. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 1999 Report Share Posted July 22, 1999 On 21 Jul 1999, Harsi das wrote: > >Yes, thus we need to cultivate a mature and sophisticated culture of > >brahminical life. > > Thats true, I think it,s also important that the brahmanas should have also the right guna and karma for doing theyr service for the society nicely. > Exactly the point. > >These things may take some time. They don't sell kits for it at the K-Mart -- at least not in our neighborhood. > > That was funny - what is a K-Mart? > It's like Wal-Mart -- a huge national chain of discount department stores. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 1999 Report Share Posted July 22, 1999 On 21 Jul 1999, Harsi das wrote: > > Thats true, I meant by indipendence of course that they where dependent on guru and Krsna, but in our Society theyr is also another controling power. Thats just my observation. > In the mode of passion it certainly appears that way. But real brahmanas are motivated by other things, and it shows by their actions. One can work cooperatively within an institution without being enamored by the institution. > > That makes sence to me. What is the principle the brahmans are suposed to work on in VAD? > Pleasing guru and Krsna, seeking out the truth and teaching human society how to improve itself -- general mode of goodness stuff like that. Utlimately we understand that the most auspicious activity is offering the conditioned souls Krsna consciousness. There are of course scriptural guidelines outlining the qualities found in those prescribing to various duties -- sort of like a job description, I suppose. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 1999 Report Share Posted July 22, 1999 > > > > > That was funny - what is a K-Mart? > > > > It's like Wal-Mart -- a huge national chain of discount department stores. > > ys, > > Sthita Sthita, just see how provincial you are - assuming everyone knows what a K Mart is. Incidentally, they recently changed thier name to Big K, so you are simply exposing your lack of devotion to the consumer cult by not being current. Big K was one of the first big national discounters. They very successfully knocked a lot of small time mom and pop type stores out of business and had a lot to do with eroding the opportunity for starting a small business. They are real contributors to the shrinking of the middle class in America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 1999 Report Share Posted July 23, 1999 On 22 Jul 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > Big K was one of the first big national discounters. They very successfully knocked a lot of small time mom and pop type stores out of business and had a lot to do with eroding the opportunity for starting a small business. They are real contributors to the shrinking of the middle class in America. > I think before that they were know as Kresge's department store or something. As a little kid I remember seeing a store like that downtown, but maybe it had nothing to do with K-Mart. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 1999 Report Share Posted July 23, 1999 > On 21 Jul 1999, Harsi das wrote: > > > > That makes sence to me. What is the principle the brahmans are suposed > > to > work on in VAD? > > "The Vedic system of varna and asrama is never to be neglected because the divisions are created by the Supreme Lord Himself for the upkeep of social and religious order in human society. The brahmanas, as the intelligent class in human society, must be avowed to steadily respect this regulative principle." SB 4.6.44 The "brahmanas" of ISKCON don't seem to have been steadily avowed to this regulative principle for the last 25 years, 4 months and 8 days, or so. "The tendency in this age of Kali to make a classless society and not observe the principles of varna and asrama is a manifestation of an impossible dream. Destruction of the social and spiritual orders will not bring fulfillment of the idea of a classless society. One should observe the principles of varna and asrama strictly for the satisfaction of the creator, for it is stated in the Bg by Lord Krsna that the four orders of the social system... are His creation. They should act according to the regulative principles of this institution and satisfy the Lord, just as different parts of the body all engage in the service of the whole. The whole is the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His virata-rupa or universal form. The brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are respectively the mouth, arms, abdomen and legs of the universal form of the Lord. So long as they are engaged in the service of the complete whole, their position is secure, otherwise they fall down from their respective positions and become degraded." SB 4.6.44 "Hrdayananda Goswami: Could you explain about the training of a brahmana? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, he must be truthful. He must have control of the senses and of the mind. He must be tolerant and not be agitated in trifle matters. He must always be clean. He must take bath at least three times a day. All the clothing, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know what is what, what is knowledge and practical application. And he must have firm faith in Krsna. This is brahmana. Hrdayananda Goswami: So what kind of practical work can we engage them in? Srila Prabhupada: They will all be teachers. Just like Dronacarya. He was brahmana, but he was teaching military art to the Pandavas. The general teacher class will be the brahmanas. It does not matter what he is teaching but that what he is teaching he is perfectly teaching. How to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Dronacarya who was a brahmana. Because he took the position of a teacher, he taught very perfectly. So brahmana should be expert in every kind of knowledge" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 1999 Report Share Posted July 23, 1999 Nitai Candra Prabhu wrote on 23.7.99 >>.. are this so caled ritviks such dangerous people, I never saw or spoke >>to any personaly until now. >Well consider this prabhu.They have destroyed the faith that many devotees >had in their spiritual master causing some of them even to make offences >against their spiritual masters. Do this devotees ever had the right understanding of what is a (theyr) spiritual master? How can someone get deluded so easyly, even to the point of making offences - what offences? >AND they ARE trying to force all of us to accept their doctrine. What is actually their doctrine? As far as I have understood from their writings, its like they want to show that Srila Prabhupada was, is, and should remain the "living" diksa guru in the institution created by him, right? Also that seems to contradict all rules of sastra and sampradaya they say that Srila Prabhupada is "guilty" so to speak, for this situation created, because he "failed" in not giving a right "order" on who and how the diksa initiations should continue in ISKCON after his departure. Therefore because it is his institution, we are suposed to follow the way of diksa initiations instituted by him during his presents, also after his "presents" (departure but not real departure,) because he is still "present" and "living" and can give diksa initiations by being a "living" guru, which he has to be, in order that one should not break the rules of scriptures, which advise us to get diksa by a "present" and "living" guru. My God, is that complicated... Now does this make any sense to any-one? If yes, than probably those devotees following this doctrine got a new follower and I am guilty for that. -sorry, or maybe good for them... (Than vote for Adri prabhu...) I for myselve, must say that I have some problems with it, and became a little bewildered by now, especialy by their explenation of "living" or "present", and lost all my faith - but not in my spiritual master, rather in my ability to think and act reasonably and logicaly. Poor me... Is that my understanding of their doctrine corect? please corect me if necesary. >If destroying a person's faith in their spiritual master and thereby >destroying their spiritual life isn't dangerous I don't know what is. >What do you think prabhu? Yes, I think we should realy use our ability to think straightforward and reasonable, than our life can be much happyer. What do you think? >>Maybe they just felt themselves so much >>misunderstood by us and pushed so much in the corner, that they reacted so >>strange like going to a public court for justice. Could well be so, or >>not? >Prabhu don't you think it is a little extreme to try to force some >philosophy, ANY philosophy on others especially when they don't want it. Well it seems some "wanted" it and therefore Krsna providet it to them by theyr ability "to think". He can give everyone what he wants - if that is also good for him, that he would have to decide for himselve, by thinking. Nobody can force you to think, only yourselve. But I understood your point. >Philosophy and such ecclesiastic affairs are a matter of free will of >the individual and the particular institutions involved never a matter for >court cases. Agreed. >>Maybe they have also other motivs, I dont know. >That many of us suspect. We will live and see, and than think and do acordingly... Your servant Harsi das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 1999 Report Share Posted July 24, 1999 > >>Maybe they have also other motivs, I dont know. > > >That many of us suspect. > > We will live and see, and than think and do acordingly... Live and preach vigorously against ritvikism for it is infested with mayavada and guru and Vaisnava aparadhas. Keep preaching against them. Preaching is the essence. Head in the sand philosophy will destroy us. > Your servant > Harsi das ys ada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 1999 Report Share Posted July 24, 1999 > As far as I have understood from their writings, its like they want to > show that Srila Prabhupada was, is, and should remain the "living" diksa > guru in the institution created by him, right? Also that seems to > contradict all rules of sastra and sampradaya they say that Srila > Prabhupada is "guilty" so to speak, for this situation created, because he > "failed" in not giving a right "order" on who and how the diksa > initiations should continue in ISKCON after his departure. What explicit "right" order is there to be given? ISCKON is not some apasampradaya, nor some innovation in regard of continuation of the disciplic succession. As if departed father got to explicitly say to his sons how to go on with "family-continuation" business. After all, it's all there in Prabhupada's books, he wrote it "black on white" what is the way of disciplic succession. How there can be any doubt about it? I wasn't at all a "pundit" when first got Bhagavad-gita from a sankirtan devotee. Still a meat eater, smoker and all that. But even as a such, I understood clearly the message given there by Prabhupada: "You got to find a guru, serve him and get initiated by him". So I immediately decided, "Yes, I go look for Prabhupada". But then (when I came to the temple) I got to know that Prabhupada departed already. At that moment there was not even in the back of my mind any thought like "Yeah, no problem, I still serve him and take initiation from him". It was clear -- "Then I got to look for somebody else". I have never heard about *anybody* who would, based simply on his/her reading of Srila Prabhupada's books, who would conclude that some posthumous rtvik system [and NOT any other way, even] of the diciplic succession is being given/described/recommended there. Haw about you? Check your own experience/understanding/realization of this point when reading Srila Prabhupada's books. Srila Prabhupada did tell us "Everything is in my books". So why not also this most important issue on "giving the right order"? It's there, in his books. If we trust him on this, then let's trust him fully. ys mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 1999 Report Share Posted July 25, 1999 > >I wasn't at all a "pundit" when first got Bhagavad-gita from a >sankirtan devotee. Still a meat eater, smoker and all that. But >even as a such, I understood clearly the message given there by >Prabhupada: "You got to find a guru, serve him and get initiated >by him". So I immediately decided, "Yes, I go look for Prabhupada". >But then (when I came to the temple) I got to know that Prabhupada >departed already. At that moment there was not even in the back of >my mind any thought like "Yeah, no problem, I still serve him and >take initiation from him". It was clear -- "Then I got to look for >somebody else". Yes we all had this same experience.The ritvik concoction is the complicated invention of twisted minds. >Srila Prabhupada did tell us "Everything is in my books". So why >not also this most important issue on "giving the right order"? >It's there, in his books. If we trust him on this, then let's trust >him fully. I agree with you 100% Mahanidhi prbahu. your servant and cousin, Nitaicandra das. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 1999 Report Share Posted July 25, 1999 > > >>Maybe they have also other motivs, I dont know. > > > > >That many of us suspect. > > > > We will live and see, and than think and do acordingly... > >Live and preach vigorously against ritvikism for it is infested >with mayavada and guru and Vaisnava aparadhas. > >Keep preaching against them. Preaching is the essence. > >Head in the sand philosophy will destroy us. > >ys > >ada Dear Ajamila prbahu. PAMHO AGTSP.I entirely agree with you.We cannot sit idly by and cooly observe from the sidelines as people try to dismantle our scoiety. We are not passifists nor was Shrila Prabhupada.He acted most vigorously when the occassion demanded it. Just think of his seemingly really extreme behaviour in India one time when he lashed out with his karatalas at the organisers of some pandal program when they tried to drag some devotees off the stage. Now I'm not suggesting we attack the ritviks with karatalas or indeed any musical instruments,I am just using this anecdote to point out how Shrila Prabhupada's mood was very fiery.If he can do this to some disturbing people at a pandal praogram it's not hard to imagine what he would be doing with or saying against the ritviks.He certainly WOULDN'T be waithing around to se what happens next.And I'm sure he'd be very upset if he saw us dong nothing to protect his society which he considered his body. your servant and nephew, Nitaicandra das. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 1999 Report Share Posted July 25, 1999 >Nitai Candra Prabhu wrote on 23.7.99 > > >>.. are this so caled ritviks such dangerous people, I never saw or spoke > >>to any personaly until now. > > >Well consider this prabhu.They have destroyed the faith that many >devotees > >had in their spiritual master causing some of them even to make offences > >against their spiritual masters. > > Do this devotees ever had the right understanding of what is a (theyr) >spiritual master? How can someone get deluded so easyly, even to the point >of making offences - what offences? Prabhu I'm sure you know that for example Lord Caitanya has forbidden all of us to read mayavadi literature.He says that even advanced devotees can fall down by doing so.So the principle is that certain things are quite capable of polluting our minds.Maybe the devotees who accepted ritvikism were not so fixed up.But surely prabhu that is not the point.The point IS that many devotees HAVE lost thier faith in their guru and ISKCON because of exposure to ritvikism. And the offense I refer to are devotees rejecting their guru who is in good standing.Can't get more offensive than that.What do you think? There is a whole temple,for example,in Bangalore full with devotees who have ,may God forgive them and may they soon come to their senses, rejected H.H.Jayapataka Maharaj. > >AND they ARE trying to force all of us to accept their doctrine. > > What is actually their doctrine? >As far as I have understood from their writings, its like they want to show >that Srila Prabhupada was, is, and should remain the "living" diksa guru in >the institution created by him, right? Corect though they call it posthumous ritvikism. >Also that seems to contradict all >rules of sastra and sampradaya Yes it certainly does and that is WHY itis bogus. >they say that Srila Prabhupada is "guilty" so >to speak, for this situation created, because he "failed" in not giving a >right "order" on who and how the diksa initiations should continue in >ISKCON >after his departure. No actually they do not say this ( although that is the situation) They say Prabhupada clearly told us that ritvik was the way to go in a certain letter.And they say that WE are the ones who have misunderstood him and have failed to carry out this "order" > Therefore because it is his institution, we are suposed to follow the >way >of diksa initiations instituted by him during his presents, also after his >"presents" (departure but not real departure,) because he is still >"present" >and "living" and can give diksa initiations by being a "living" guru, which >he has to be, in order that one should not break the rules of scriptures, >which advise us to get diksa by a "present" and "living" guru. No one can take diksha from Prabhupada any more because he is not PHYICALLY present. Nobody is denying that Prabhupada is present or that he can't be guru for the whole world.He is Jagat guru after all.But he CANNOT give diksha.He is the guru of us all by giving us shiksha. But diksha guru must be physically present.That's the rules which can't be broken or bended.But this is exactly what the ritviks would like to do.They are trying to disrupt the principle of guru-parampara and establish a totally bogus concocted system. > My God, is that complicated... Now does this make any sense to any-one? >If >yes, than probably those devotees following this doctrine got a new >follower >and I am guilty for that. > -sorry, or maybe good for them... (Than vote for Adri prabhu...) I hope not prabhu. > I for myselve, must say that I have some problems with it, and became a >little bewildered by now, especialy by their explenation of "living" or >"present", and lost all my faith - but not in my spiritual master, rather >in >my ability to think and act reasonably and logicaly. Poor me... > >Is that my understanding of their doctrine corect? please corect me if >necesary. > > > >If destroying a person's faith in their spiritual master and thereby > >destroying their spiritual life isn't dangerous I don't know what is. > >What do you think prabhu? > >Yes, I think we should realy use our ability to think straightforward and >reasonable, than our life can be much happyer. What do you think? I think that we should NOT allow ANYONE to destroy our faith in our guru or allow anyone to do such an abominable thing to anyone else. It is the GREATEST VIOLENCE.WE need to unerstand how precious our spiritual life is.We need to know how difficult it is to reach this point of having some faith in Krishna and his devotee.We need to be utterly adamant in our defence of our spiritual life against anyone who would attempt to harm it.And we need to understand that anyone who does this is the greatest danger,the ritviks who do this are the greatest menace to our spiritual lives. > >>Maybe they just felt themselves so much > >>misunderstood by us and pushed so much in the corner, that they reacted >so > >>strange like going to a public court for justice. Could well be so, or > >>not? > > >Prabhu don't you think it is a little extreme to try to force some > >philosophy, ANY philosophy on others especially when they don't want it. > >Well it seems some "wanted" it and therefore Krsna providet it to them by >theyr ability "to think". If people want to accept that is their good right and their problem. It is also our duty and good right to make sure as few people are affected as possible. >He can give everyone what he wants - if that is >also good for him, that he would have to decide for himselve, by thinking. >Nobody can force you to think, only yourselve. >But I understood your point. When I say force I refer to their attempt to force our entire society by rule of mundane law to accept their nonsense. > >Philosophy and such ecclesiastic affairs are a matter of free will of > >the individual and the particular institutions involved never a matter >for > >court cases. > >Agreed. Thank you. > >>Maybe they have also other motivs, I dont know. > > >That many of us suspect. > >We will live and see, and then think and do acordingly... Well I hope you have already seen what the situation is.If you need further clarification please don't hesitate to write to all of us here on this conference. Hope you're finding our exchange in some way interesting. Your servant and cousin, Nitaicandra das. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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