Not everything is Karma - there is also free will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/99 5:30:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Antardwip.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<<

But even the activities we are "held responsible for" by the laws of nature

are

also impelled upon us by karma, unless we surrender to the big K. So "free

will" is really not free will to choose our activities as we are impelled

100%

by material nature, but the ability to petition God. How about that? >>

 

Yes this is my understanding also of free will. The living entities free will

is that at any given moment we have the freedom to choose Krsna or to not

choose Krsna. If we do not choose Krsna, there is no more any question of

free will. We remain entangled and contolled by the modes of nature. We may

think we are advancing because we are acting in the mode of goodness, but

that is just another subtle level of entanglement. Kanti dd

[Guest guest]

>

> While reading the latest comments in regard to Karma, and hearing from

>different sources at what extreme reactions and indiference devotees are

>capable, everything under the slogan "its all your bad karma anyway" I

>would

>like to humble add to this discussion:

 

I would agree with you prabhu.I have heard some horror stories of devotees

who were very indifferent to others sufferings rationalising that "It's just

your bad karmic reactions prabhu".And that's why we have to not only

understand the law of karma and be philosophically adept but be sensitive

and personal human beings like Prabhupada was.

He gave us plenty of philosophy,was very demanding of us but he touched our

hearts with his kindness.

 

your servant and cousin,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

>> Due to the arangements of karma, or due to the misuse of his tiny free

>> will given to him by Krsna, he may have got the Winchester and everything

>> became aranged so that he could kill somebody, but still he was free to

>> pull the trigger or not. Nobody forced him to do it.

 

> His mind did, and his intelligence couldn't stop it. Even if it was a

> coldblooded murder, it's a fault of intelligence (which is BTW

> material element and is totally conditioned).

> The spirit soul just observes all this. And it doesn't get "punished",

> the body does (including mind and intelligence).

 

> Free will limited to a very simple choice - to serve Krishna or not.

> That's what spirit souls do. They do not kill or get killed.

> Otherwise there's no independence.

 

That is of course the vision of a genuine Brahmana, I presented the vision

of a Ksatriya (I guess Yamaraja does the same), the Vaishya may have his

vision and the sudra his.

 

In a varnasrama dharma society there may be a variety of visions

depending what varna duty one has. Not everything is one. But of course

everyone should be educated about his constitutional position as spirit soul

and try to act acordingly, but that does not negate the fact that we are in

the material world in a material body suroundet by the mind and

intelligence, wich are of course like you corectly pointed out also material

elements.

 

We still have the independence or free will, acording to our

conditioning by the modes of nature to act piously or sinfully, or serve the

Lord and try to act from the transcendental plane. But I dont think

devotees are above the varnasrama dharma society rather shoud try to become

a integrated part of it, for their own benefit. After all we are living in

this material world, in a material body and will remain here until the end

of our days, when we may return Home back to Godhead.

 

Why should we be transcendental to daiva varnasrama dharma?

 

Your servant

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

"COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2448725 from COM]

>

>

> We still have the independence or free will, acording to our

> conditioning by the modes of nature to act piously or sinfully, or serve the

> Lord and try to act from the transcendental plane. But I dont think

> devotees are above the varnasrama dharma society rather shoud try to become

> a integrated part of it, for their own benefit. After all we are living in

> this material world, in a material body and will remain here until the end

> of our days, when we may return Home back to Godhead.

>

> Why should we be transcendental to daiva varnasrama dharma?

>

> Your servant

> Harsi das

 

Very good point. Srila Prabhupada carried a danda and acted the role of the

perfect brahmana sannyasi. He -- of all people -- could certainly have said

that he was above varnasrama. Since I am below Srila Prabhupada, how can I say

that I am above varnasrama. Certainly we do not want to attempt to surpass our

founder-acarya.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

**************************************

Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1974 741021SB.MAY

 

Actually, a Vaisnava is above this varnasrama-dharma. But we don't claim that

we

have become perfect Vaisnava. We are not so impudent.

 

**************************************

[Guest guest]

I think that this discussion could profit from some scriptural references.

The Puranas are full of them . The Mahabharata is especially full of them.

I don't have a copy just now, but maybe some can and can provide some

authoritative quotes.