Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 >Here is a dilema: on the one hand, someone who steals anothers wife may be >killed without incurring sinful reaction, and on the other hand, it is an >offense to kill a devotee. What, according to guru-sadhu-shastra, should be >the proper punishment for a devotee who steals another devotee's wife? Before we answer that, here is another question: Is he a real "Vaishnav - Devotee" if he has stolen the wife of another devotee? At least that act is not the act of devotion to Krsna, so he was not acting as a Vaishnav. If one does not act as a Vasihnav, is he to be treated as one for such an offense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 I am sending this again, because the first copy went out under my other email address and many will wonder who it is? >Here is a dilema: on the one hand, someone who steals anothers wife may be >killed without incurring sinful reaction, and on the other hand, it is an >offense to kill a devotee. What, according to guru-sadhu-shastra, should be >the proper punishment for a devotee who steals another devotee's wife? Before we answer that, here is another question: Is he a real "Vaishnav - Devotee" if he has stolen the wife of another devotee? At least that act is not the act of devotion to Krsna, so he was not acting as a Vaishnav. If one does not act as a Vasihnav, is he to be treated as one for such an offense? ys ameyatma das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 > >Here is a dilema: on the one hand, someone who steals anothers wife may > >be killed without incurring sinful reaction, and on the other hand, it is > >an offense to kill a devotee. What, according to guru-sadhu-shastra, > >should be the proper punishment for a devotee who steals another > >devotee's wife? > > Before we answer that, here is another question: Is he a real "Vaishnav - > Devotee" if he has stolen the wife of another devotee? At least that act > is not the act of devotion to Krsna, so he was not acting as a Vaishnav. > If one does not act as a Vasihnav, is he to be treated as one for such an > offense? Perhaps the incident of Ashvattama's killing the remaining sons of the Pandavas is relevant. To say that a brahmana is exempt from punishment for wrongdoing because of his status and at the same time argue that if he did something wrong and therefore should not be considered a brahmana (and can be punished) would seem contradictory. How could a brahmana be exempt from punishment unless he retains his status? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 Bhakta Tom wrote: >Stealing means to took someone's wife by force, >if the force has not been applied that the other party (the wife herself) >was not inocent also. This is good point. I do not have time to look up quotes, but in Manu Samhita there is a section dealing with illicit sex. In the beginning of the section Manu states that if a man has an affair with another man's wife, the woman is to be ( "can" be ) taken to the city square and thrown into a pack of wild hungry dogs, to be devoured alive. The man is to be placed on red hot iron bars and singed to death. VERY HEAVY. But, then after giving this extreme punishment it lists the punishment to be given to each of the four varna classes, and even for the Sudra it does not list the severity of the original punishment. For a brahman he is to be fined a certain weight of gold, and if he refuses to pay, since a king cannot forcibly take a brahman's property, it says that the king can force the brahman to leave his kingdom, along with all his possessions and caste him out of his kingdom as an unfit and undesirable person. Then, later, Manu explains that a society is to be kept in check and forced to follow under the laws of dharma out of the fear of punishment. Thus, Manu gives the very heavy and severe punishment, it is there, so that it will strike fear in the people to not break the laws of dharma. Today the modern laws have no bite to enforce religous moral behavior, thus the whole world is now in hell. But, a Vedic king will then consult with his brahman advisors and they will see there are grades and levels of punishment. So, yes, if the crime is sufficently gruesome, then the heaviest punishment is there, if it warrants it. But, in general the lessor punishments would normally be followed. Still, the fear of the worst thing must be be there. If you go too far out of line, you know, if you steal some valuables you can loose your hands, if you have an affair with another man's willing wife, there is some heavy price to pay, and if you forcibly rape and brutally attack, then you should be roasted on hot iron bars. But, in ISKCON, what fear is there if one devotee has some affair with another man's wife? No fear. He can still be a gurukula teacher or next year he might become TP. ys ameyatma das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 >...and what about viceversa, if a devotee woman "steals" another devotee`s >husband, which happens also quite often, what should be than the "proper >punishment"...? >ys, >Harsi das The odd thing about anyone stealing anyone's spouse is that it is the most foolish thing to do. If a woman wants a man to stay with her, then why take a man who is ready to give up his current wife? If he is able and ready to give up his current wife and responsiblities to his current children and family for her, then what is the guarantee he will not give her up for another and another. Cheaters and the cheated, only. If the man wants a woman to be faithful to him, why take a woman that is being unfaithful to her first husband? Taking another person's spouse is the height of Ignorance and stupidity. ys ameyatma das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 > But, in ISKCON, what fear is there if one devotee has some affair with > another man's wife? No fear. He can still be a gurukula teacher or next > year he might become TP. I dont think we can bring in roasting yet :-), but something should be done, isnt it shameful that we have almost no form of social justice? The Amish at least put people in coventry (dont speak to them) if they transgress even simple rules. Cant we even do that? Its as if we have no community at all. Without proper varnasrama institutions, this will just go on. YS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 On 16 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote: > > Without proper varnasrama institutions, this will just go on. > > YS There was plenty of silly stuff going on dury the glory days of Vedic culture, too. All you've got to do is read the SB to find out. I'm not arguing agains VAD, just a simplistic idea of what it means to have to live with human beings in the material world. Yes, there should be a fair and consistently administered system of justice. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 On 16 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote: > > Without proper varnasrama institutions, this will just go on. > > YS There was plenty of silly stuff going on dury the glory days of Vedic culture, too. All you've got to do is read the SB to find out. I'm not arguing agains VAD, just a simplistic idea of what it means to have to live with human beings in the material world. Yes, there should be a fair and consistently administered system of justice. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 1999 Report Share Posted July 17, 1999 > > If we recall from Ramayana we can see that Sita didn't wanted to go with > > Ravana and he kidnapped her, so the duty of a Husband (in this case > > Ramacandra) was to kill Ravana. > > But at the same time, it is an offense to kill a devotee. In the > Ramayana, the Lord could not punish the brahmana Sarvatha Siddha because > although he committed an offense, brahmanas are exempt from punishment by > the King (cf. Ramayana, Uttara-khanda). Certainly extreme caution must be taken for any such considerations and ONLY by recognized authorities, but at the same time as far as the principle is concerned: "When they tried to disrobe Draupadi in the assembly, Bhisma and Drona were silent, and for such negligence of duty they should be killed." This is a guru and Maha-jana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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