The Uttama-adhikari as taught in Purport to NOI 5

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future comments on this thread.

 

Thank you.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> According to different devotees none else but an infallible

> uttama-adhikari is to be accepted as a bona fide guru in the

> line of our disciplic succession. The base for this are Srila

> Prabhupada's statements. Now, the question is, in the light of

> such rather a stressful and demanding situation, how a disciple

> can go on in his conviction that his guru is a bona fide one

> at al, if his guru is not seen as an uttama-adhikari?

>

> Or, to be more direct. The dilemma that is hitting the heads of

> many is -- May a Vaisnava of a lesser staus than an uttama-adhikari

> also be accepted as a bona fide guru, able to connect disciples to

> the Guru-parampara and Krsna?

 

So Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: [Cc.

Madhya 7.128] "You simply deliver the instruction of Krsna, and you become a

spiritual master."

So you haven't got to make yourself very learned scholar or... Just like a

postal peon. He's not necessarily very learned scholar or even a very literary

man. His only business is to take the envelope and put it in the right place.

That's all. Similarly, to spread this Krsna consciousness, you haven't got to

become a very learned scholar or literary man. You have simply to understand...

Sravanam kirtanam. You hear and spread this. People will be happy.

Akhila-bandha-muktaye. They will be liberated from all problems. It is so nice

thing.

Thank you very much. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.13 -- New Vrindaban, June 16, 1969

 

 

 

The important thing is the sampradaya.

 

We all have access to an uttama adhikari through the siksa of Srila prabhupada.

 

Why should we be so puffed up to think - none one can help me advance in Krsna

consciousness except an uttama? I am so advanced I will accept only from an

uttama.

 

I coached soccer for under 12 year old boys last spring. It is a subtle joy

to

hear karmis cheering for boys named Tilok, Tulasi, and Rupa(devotee boys I

bring to the local soccer club with me), and encouraging those boys to succeed

along side their own children.

 

I am not a very good coach. Coach to a soccer player is like guru. I am only

on the level of kanistha when it comes to coaching. However, because I am

the

authorised representative of the local club, the sampradaya so to speak, I am

able to connect the players with the goal of being able to play in a game.

That

I am limited in my ability to coach them, is going to have a limiting effect

on

their ability to play, no doubt. Fortunately, they are not totally restrained

by my limits. They can read books by great coaches and players, see videos of

great games, and benefit by those examples. In this way they can access the

great uttama coaches. They can go to soccer clinics and learn hands on from

better coaches then me.

 

Still, without me, even with my limited abilities, they won't be able to put

that knowledge into practice, or should I say, into play. They should seek

the higher knowledge, but they can also benefit from me, even if I am not the

highest level of coach. If they don't seek that, then they will be limited

by

my ability to coach them.

 

Of course, as a coach, I have a responsibity to my players to become the best

coach I can possibly be. Thus I am also studying the books, learning from

other coaches etc. I have even taken up playing the sport, so I can

experience

the game from the perspective of the player so I can better understand how they

are thinking on the field. I am not thinking, oh now I am the coach, I am on

the highest level , therefore I can be complacent.

 

Yes, seek an uttama, but don't snub the kanisthas and madhyamas. They are

still devotees.

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Madhava Gosh Prabhu for the nice comment! I was truly happy!

 

ys

vgd

[Guest guest]

"COM: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2462496 from COM]

>

> Thank you, Madhava Gosh Prabhu for the nice comment! I was truly happy!

>

> ys

> vgd

 

If I have done one small part of helping you follow Srila Prabhupada's

instruction to be happy, then I am also happy.

 

"So we have to purify our hearts of our dirty desires, which are forcing us

to act for sense gratification and suffer. And in this age the purification

is very, very easy: Just chant Hare Krsna. That's all. This is Caitanya

Mahaprabhu's contribution. Ceto-darpana-marjanam

bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If you chant the Hare

Krsna mantra, you will be relieved of the suffering caused by

transmigrating perpetually from body to body. Chanting is such a simple

thing. There is no question of caste, creed, nationality, color, social

position. No. By the grace of God, everyone has a tongue and ears. So

everyone can chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare

Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Just chant Hare Krsna and be happy."

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => The Self and Its Bodies

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 12 Jul 99 13:21 +0100, COM: Ajamila (das) ACBSP (Goloka Books - GB)

wrote:

 

> >

> > If NM is a truly great paramahamsa and has so much love

> > for Srila Prabhupada, as you claim, then why does he not prove

> > his love by co-operating with Srila Prabhupada's GBC? Does he

> > not have sufficient humility? The GBC would openly welcome NM

> > if he were to agree to follow Srila Prabhupada's rule of

> > co-operating with the GBC.

> >

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Your post has again raised the point of "cooperation." The dictionary gives

two very different meanings of the word.

 

1. To work or act together toward a common end or purpose.

2. To acquiesce willingly; be compliant.

 

If we're not using the same definition of a word, there will be (and has

been, for many years now) disagreement. It appears to my limited and faulty

perception that the GBC has expected the second definition from their

Godbrothers, while most Godbrothers assume the first. Which did Srila

Prabhupada have in mind when he asked his disciples to cooperate with the

GBC? Is cooperation not a two-way street? It depends on what your

definition of "cooperation" is.

 

"My way or the highway" is a lonely road.

 

A small, but, in my humble opinion, important point.

 

your servant,

 

Mamata devi dasi

 

 

 

 

 

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> > > If NM is a truly great paramahamsa and has so much love

> > > for Srila Prabhupada, as you claim, then why does he not prove his love

> > > by co-operating with Srila Prabhupada's GBC? Does he not have sufficient

> > > humility? The GBC would openly welcome NM if he were to agree to follow

> > > Srila Prabhupada's rule of co-operating with the GBC.

>

> Your post has again raised the point of "cooperation." The dictionary gives

> two very different meanings of the word.

>

> 1. To work or act together toward a common end or purpose.

> 2. To acquiesce willingly; be compliant.

.........

> "My way or the highway" is a lonely road.

>

> A small, but, in my humble opinion, important point.

>

> your servant,

>

> Mamata devi dasi

 

Co-operation is no excuse for one group or individual bullying others, I agree.

 

It requires certain skill to work as a team, and within ISKCON we have had many

of our own who couldn't manage it and started on their own. Paramadvaita Swami

comes to mind, as does Tripurari Swami, and Hansadutta as well. Who do these

devotees work closely with now? Not a team, but very much as prominent leaders

of their groups.

It is not a case of the GBC co-operating with Narayana Maharaj or vice versa in

this case. It is a case of his learning to be just one equal voice with thirty

or fourty other vaishnavas. Quite frankly, I do not believe that he would

prefer that situation to his present one. But that's all ISKCON has to offer,

not just him, but anyone, if we follow Srila Prabhupada's guidelines.

[Guest guest]

Janesvara wrote:

> You say you were there in his last days and therefore you certainly

> > recall his statements regarding varnasrama-dharma? It was the one thing

> > he wished he had completed. He said half the work was done by him and

> > the other half, varnasrama-dharma, was to be completed by us.

 

 

I am taking the liberty of switching your text around a little Maharaja.

Please forgive.

 

 

> I am currently preaching in the nation state of Mauritius where the idea

> of such a executive head of state is not so far fetch. Please wish us well

> in our attempt to establish such an ideal state based on the priciples of

> daivi varnasrama-dharma.

 

I DO wish you well in any attempt you may make toward establishing

varnasrama-dharma anywhere you may try. Best of luck! And please keep us

posted.

 

 

> Yes, we are not surprised by your response Janesvara Prabhu, but I have to

> say that I also have remained consistent in my position since the last

> time you and Hari Sauri drew me into this debate.

 

 

Well at least we have consistency going for all of us! Or stubborness, one

or the other. Honestly, I appreciate your consistency; it shows

self-confidence and character. Due to your steadiness in your service to

Srila Prabhupada you are manifesting good qualities. It gives me

encouragement to continue on this path also in hopes of attaining similar

qualities. Thank you!

 

 

> I am all in favor of establishing varnasrama-dharma, but my contention is,

> in order to do that properly, we need to have a Krsna conscious executive

> head of state. Varnasrama-dharma is meant to operate in the whole society,

> and can't be properly established in a volunteer orginization like ISKCON.

 

 

Unfortunately I disagree with you, once again. And frankly, but with due

respect, I feel you are in contention with our guru Maharaja. I do not

believe you will find such requirements for implementing Srila Prabhupada's

instructions and orders regarding varnasrama-dharma in ISKCON in his own

words spoken during his morning walk conversations in Vrindavana in March

1974 and again even more emphatically on Feb 14, 1977 in his conversations

with Hari sauri and Satsvarupa.

 

Please show me such a reference in contradiction to these above references

and we can then debate the issue.

 

Until then, Srila Prabhupada's orders still stand - divide the society of

devotees into the four varnas because there will only be chaos until we do.

 

Actually, I think you are trying to make or misunderstand daiva

varnasrama-dharma to be much more difficult than it really is. Sure, its

depth of social structure and values is vast and comprehensive, but it is

not meant to disqualifiy anyone from BEGINNING its recognition and

implementation. It is like the science of mathematics; there are extremely

high levels of arithmetic like calculus and trig and quantum mechanics,

etc., but anyone, even a child, can enter into the implementation of

arithmetic with 1+1=2, which is true even in the highest math. One doesn't

need to graduate from college before learning his ABC's or his 123's, in

fact, he cannot graduate from college without them!

 

Daiva varnasrama-dharma IS devotional service. How can we postpone such a

program?

 

What is your interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's four days of clear and

consise instructions to his senior management disciples to start varnasrama

colleges in EVERY center of the movement over 25 years ago?

 

 

> The executive head must be willing and able to enforce varnasrama-dharma

> and be willing and able to inflict punishment on those who contravene its

> principles. This trained up executive head of state is therefore the pivot

> and emblem of varnasrama-dharma, the "sine qua non".

 

Give it a break, Maharaja! We can't even get people to chant Hare Krsna and

follow a few rules! Besides, I think our Lord, Sri Krsna, did a fine job of

"enforcing" varnasrama-dharma within his divine city of devotees, Dvaraka.

But does this mean that He killed all of his devotee prostitutes and those

devotees who were their clients? They all seemed to live peacefully and

perfected their lives as devotees of the Lord, gradually. This seems to be

the big mental block of many - patience and tolerance of "elementary school"

mentalities and habits of human beings beginning their long trek back home.

 

Good things take time. We should not fail to start our basic arithmetic just

because our egos can't stand the fact that we can't start at the calculus

level. That is immature and unreasonable. It reminds me of my arrogant

teenage son who won't play basketball because he won't be a starter and will

have to sit on the bench for awhile until he earns his skills.

 

Don't try to disqualify everyone from implementing varnasrama-dharma in

their lives through mental brain-washing "No one can do this until they are

super advanced human beings or we have some super hero ksatriya who will

force us to follow it". This is not productive.

 

Prabhupada's instructions are very simple and easily implemented. We just

have to prioritize the efforts toward BEGINNING the program - daiva

varnasrama-dharma counseling (varnasrama colleges) in EVERY center for EVERY

devotee, EVERYDAY.

 

Nice hearing from you again.

 

Your servant,

 

Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

> > My answer is to this question is a qualified yes. So long as the guru of

>a

> > lesser status doesn't cheat us by pretending that he is more advanced

>then

> > he actually is, then Krsna can use him to help us on our journey back

>home

> > back to Godhead.

>

>Exactly. That's the point, Maharaj. When the madhyama or kanishtha guru not

>on the highest platform artificially assumes the position of an uttama in

>name of preaching, then he becomes degraded. And an organization which

>promotes such false glorification at any point of time will have a lot of

>problems like we are facing now. Because such false glorification can go to

>the head of a madhyama or kanistha guru not on the highest platform, he may

>really start feeling that he is an uttama. This is because he is still not

>completely purified from all anarthas. We have seen this many times.

 

I agree and this is why the GBC in their wisdom has finally been able to

pass laws in ISKCON toning down the worship especially in public of our

present gurus in an effort to put emphasis on Shrila Prbahupada our

undisputed uttama adhikari guru.

That's why we also had the guru reform in the mid to late '80s as some gurus

were being presented as the only pure devotees who could initiate.And it

apparently went to their head.I have it on good aothority,for example,that

one these such "paramahamsa" gurus on many occasions said that nobody else

would ever initiate in "his" zone."Over my dead body he said."Most

unfortunate.So many devotees were harrassed and even driven out at this

time.

 

>Oherwise if the guru is genuine and not pretending and avoids false

>glorification then even though he is not on the highest platform, he is

>progressing towards that platform so the disciples will follow him Back to

>Godhead.

 

A good point prabhu.Vaishnavas are supposed to be humble are they

not?And one symptom of humility is that you are aware of your own

short-comings.Such an honest devotee will never falsely present himself as

something he knows he is not and he will also curb the over-zealous

disciple.

 

>Ofcourse it is best to have a guru who is already in the spiritual

>world.

 

Well we all can still take shiksha from hrila Prabhupada to a great extent.

And anyway those wonderful folowers of his who are so absorbed in his

preaching mission and are always planning how to expand that mission of Lord

Chaitanya are pretty much in the spiritual world.

 

Your servant and cousin,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

 

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Dear Trivikrama Maharaj,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.All glories to Shrila Prabhupada.Thamk

you for this wonderful postingn with which I agree 100%.

>

>"I know that this is a well worn phrase, but in addition to the above con-

>cerns, time is showing that the one real asset we have which the

>Gaudiya Math or anyone else does not have, is an institution which

>strictly follows Srila Prabhupad's standards, goals, and siddanta.

>We can give them Srila Prabhupad's mercy and path and other cannot.

>In my opinion, that is the case we should make and live. To the degree

>that we blur and dilute that path is the degree to which we pale by com-

>parison with the Gaudiya Math, and actually lose our right and mandate to

>lead the world, in my opinion.

>

>I would also offer that it is not just what we can deliver as an

>institution

>but in our personal character as well (and I am speaking to my self here

>too). What profile we push for our gurus and authorities, without sub-

>stance behind it is not going to make a bit of difference ultimately. We

>have gurus with ample pomp and circumstance, and they lose disciples

>left and right. We have gurus who are modest in their presentation and

>who's disciples are completely fixed, happy, dedicated, and loyal.

 

>We have had years of demanding respect without necessarily command-

>ing it by personal qualities and example, and look where that has gotten

>us. The naive, the sentimentalists, and the unbalanced are another thing,

>but quality people are not fools; they can see and sense genuine com-

>passion and concern for them, they can see renunciation and detachment

>from matter, and they will go where they find it."

 

Such nice points.Thank you so much Maharaj for posting them.

 

>

>Srila Prabhupada himself said in this regard that of all his Godbrothers he

>had come out a "little successful" because " I have strictly followed the

>order of my Guru Maharaj".

>

>This is the secret of success, so if we want to have any hope of attaining

>success then we should follow in Srila Prabhupada's footsteps in this

>regard.

>Srila Prabhupada told us to cooperate with the GBC and manage our society

>as

>it was being managed in his time. If he had told us to make a program of

>regularly hearing from his Godbrothers we sould have certainly done that. I

>was there with Srila Prabhupada in the last days, I never heard any such

>instruction from his lips.

>

>I plan to remain loyal to Srila Prabhupada's instructions and patiently

>expect his mercy. If others think they have a faster way to get back to

>Godhead then what can we say? We are prepared to suffer their ridicule a

>thousand times over, but won't budge an inch in our determination to remain

>fixed at the lotus feet of our most merciful deliverer. Srila Prabhupada

>ki

>jai!

 

I feel so happy and secure that we have in our society great and dedicated

souls like yourself maharaj who strictly follow Shrila Prbahupada and are

sold out to his preaching mission.

 

Your servant and nephew,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

 

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>The point can be raised that we know without doubt that Srila Prabhupada

>was

>a uttama adhikari because of his extraordinary accomplishments which may

>not

>be true for other advanced devotees. Also we are able to recognize

>something

>about a uttama adhikari only from the instructions of Srila Prabhupada. So

>the best & safest way is to follow the uttama adhikari who is beyond all

>doubt and that is Srila Prabhupada.

 

Very good point prabhu.With Prbahupada we have no doubts.With

others,however,there are plenty.So why take the risk.

 

 

your servant and cousin,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

 

 

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>

Dear Mamati dd. ,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.All glories to Shrila Prabhupada.You have

written.

 

 

>Your post has again raised the point of "cooperation." The >dictionary

>gives

>two very different meanings of the word.

>

>1. To work or act together toward a common end or purpose.

>2. To acquiesce willingly; be compliant.

>

>If we're not using the same definition of a word, there will be (and has

>been, for many years now) disagreement. It appears to my limited and

>faulty

>perception that the GBC has expected the second definition from their

>Godbrothers, while most Godbrothers assume the first. Which did Srila

>Prabhupada have in mind when he asked his disciples to cooperate with the

>GBC? Is cooperation not a two-way street? It depends on what your

>definition of "cooperation" is.

 

It's a question of FOLLOWING the GBC.If that body passes a certain judgement

the individual who may have a different opinion must accept it.This is how

societies funtion lest we want chaos.If we think it's not correct we can

work within the society to change it as some devotees have done,for

example,with the guru reform issue with which they had great success in

changing the zonal acarya system.

 

Regarding the Gaudiya Math we just have to follow Shrila Prabhupada who

warned us not to get involved with them.The instruction from our founder

acarya in crystal clear and is only echoed by the GBC.With this the GBC are

without a doubt correct as they are following Prabhupada's will.

In regard to Narayana Maharaj the GBC would just like him to not criticise

our society and it's workings.For your information NM has also subtly

criticised Shrila Prabhupada.I can send you or anyone the reference.

 

 

>"My way or the highway" is a lonely road.

 

In the case of the GM and NM,the way of the GBC IS the way of Shrila

Prabhupada.So anyone who wants to please Shrila Prabhupada regarding

her/his GM dealings should keep such dealings to a minimum as Prabhupada

himself has instructed.The GBC are just repeating.

 

your servant,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

>be spontaneously decided by the ISCKON madhyamas themselves?

> >

> > Why not let them first have a more clear idea about it. For the example,

> > Narayan Maharaja is being propagated by his followers as the next

>legitimate

> > acarya of ISCKON, in the line coming directly after Srila Prabhupada. So

> > where is then the place for the other uttama-adhikari acaryas from

>Gaudiya

> > Math? They all seam to be ruled out already, and this time not from the

>side

> > of ISCKON. Do we in ISCKON got to resolve this also?

> >

> >

> >

> > ys mnd

>Hey, Hey, wait a minute. This is getting offensive. What about Sridhar

>Maharaj?

>His disciples assured me he was the next self-effulgent acharya to take

>over

>ISKCON in 1984. Get back in line please lads, wait your turn.

 

Ho ho ho.Very funny and also to the point.

The Gaudiya Math seem to be VERY interested in ISKCON or should I say in

it's devotees and in controlling it.Whereas we in ISKCON are not similarly

interested in them.I wonder why that is.Is it perhaps because we have such a

wonderful collection of 1000s of dedicated souls all over the planet that

the GM could never have made into devotees what to speak of our marvellous

temples and influence etc etc.I have to say,and it is the opinion of many of

our leading devotees,that the GM often have an unhealthy "interest" in

ISKCON and are obcessed with controlling it because of ill-motives which are

only too obvious.Again I have the evidence to back up my statements if

anyone is interested.

Are we not interested in controllong them perhaps because Shrila Prabhupada

said not to be ( and most of us seem to be able to follow this instruction

)and we feel they can't offer us any more than what ISKCON is already

offering us.

 

Your servant and cousin,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

 

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