The Soul's Fall... The Final Word

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This message was just posted under its oun heading when i was meaning to post

it here. I was tired and got confused. So here it is in its proper location.

 

 

My dear respected Vaisnavas. Please accept my humble obeisances.

Undoubtedly, there are some very intelligent persons on this folder along with

those who know the art of using logic to reach certain conclusions that they

accept as 'truth.' And logically, they may be correct in their conclusions.

But unfortunately the absolute cannot be reached by this method. You cannot

just take certain statements from Srila Prabhupada's lectures and declare them

absolute (or rather declare as absolute your understanding of exactly what the

meaning of the statement is ), then find another statement that you declare as

absolute (in the same manner), and then by the empirical, deductive process of

reason declare that the obvious conclusion is also undisputedly true.

Has this very process been used to come up with this idea that the living

entity is and always was bound to the material world? That he is another genre

completely? This is in fact incorrect. The only evidence that has been offered

is through logic. For instance, one gentleman has offered different

references, put them together, and then declared a logical conclusion. This

does not make it a fact. Otherwise, all material knowledge reached by this

same process could be declared true and absolute.

 

For instance, I will use the following words by Vijaya Pai>>>>>>

 

On 16 Jul 1999, Vijay Pai wrote:

 

>>>>>>Long-range context (SB 1.15.27 purport): "The material activity of the

living being is beginningless, but it can be rectified by transferal into the

spiritual quality. Thus it can cease its material qualitative reactions."

 

Again, an absolute statement. There is no beginning to our material activity.

Since material activity can only take place through a material body and senses

(#1 and #2 of the 5 factors), we have always had material bodies and senses.

As such, we cannot have been in the spiritual world<<<<<<<<

 

But this is not an absolute statement. One has to understand what the whole

truth is by hearing submissively and repeated from the realized soul. It is a

process that continues for the lifetime of the disciple. If he is sincere,

then gradually he can understand what is meant by this. Not that we take the

statement by itself and say "oh, see, this is an absolute"

 

For one thing, when Srila Prabhupada says the living entity's stay in the

material world is beginningless, he does not mean that it has gone on forever

here in the material world as has been concluded above. Logically, using the

material meaning of the words, one CAN say this. But it is not the truth.

Srila Prabhupada explains elsewhere the real explanation of this word

'beginningless'. The living entity's stay here is 'beginningless' because time

is defined as 'the duration of the creation of this particular universe.' The

living entity was absorbed into the body of Visnu after his existence in the

material universe during the last breath of Visnu, and has been remanifested

during this universal creation, in the beginning of which present time began.

 

Therefore, Srila Prabhupada explains, his beginning cannot be traced out

through 'time.' But this does not imply in any way that we never existed in

the spiritual world. This conclusion has been made after some considerable

analysis, I'm sure, but when one hears from the realized soul up to the point

where everything is understood in its proper perspective, this conclusion is

immediately rejected, and a more thorough understanding is achieved.

The absolute truth as The Supreme Personality of Godhead is hidden from anyone

except those who are engaged in devotional service, those who are submissive

and humble, and those who give up mental speculation and just hear from the

realized souls. This humility and submission to His most confidential servant

pleases Krsna and He reveals the meaning of His injunctions to those

surrendered souls. Our logic will not reveal to us this hidden understanding.

Though this is not to say that in our practice of this submissive aural

hearing -- joined with surrender and service to the pure devotee -- there is

not also understanding through all reason and logic.

 

Reason and logic is there, but not in the way as described above, where

isolated statements are taken as absolute. We first abandon this process of

speculative, logical analysis, then approach the bonafide spiritual master in

the posture of great fools, and whatever Krsna reveals from within our hearts

we must understand with all reasoning and logic. We do not blindly accept. But

that does not mean we accept the process adopted by material logicians. Krsna

orders that we abandon all other forms of spiritual practice and surrender to

His nine-fold process of devotional service. And this includes abandoning

speculative reasoning for seeking out absolutes.

 

The nine processes are more or less acts of love. They are all done to try to

please Krsna, though in the beginning this idea of love is something that we

are understanding theoretically from the pure devotee. He is describing our

situation and describing the science of bhakti, and we are responding by

engaging our senses in regulated acts of devotion. And through this process we

are making our progress. Gradually we are developing our affection and faith

for Krsna by hearing. It is not developed through reason. It is

transcendental. By this hearing we actually contact Krsna and His association

has an antiseptic and prophylactic effect on our consciousness, and the

gradual purifying process takes place.

 

This awakening of our Krsna consciousness in no way develops through rational,

deductive reasoning without this surrender to the pure devotee. To think that

our own logical conclusions are real and transcendental is the product of the

illusory energy. All of our conclusions should be through our hearing from

realized souls. And our speaking shall only be the identical understanding as

we are receiving, though we can use our own words.

 

But we are not free to creatively reach our own conclusions through logic.

Unless, of course, we are not interested in representing param para. Then we

are free to say anything and there is no objection. But to present ourselves

as representatives of the philosophy as coming through our beloved spiritual

master, we are duty bound to carry forward to the next generation the exact

meaning without any adding or subtracting that which is from the reasoning of

our teeny brains.

 

Everything we understand, as submissive disciples, we have heard exactly that

same idea from our guru. And whatever we repeat, it is the same. Not that we

manufacture conclusions by our logic or selectively choose different

statements, without the consideration of the whole picture, and developing our

own ideas.

 

The fact is devotional service is under the control of the internal potency of

Krsna. Material logicians cannot penetrate the covering of this material world

to approach that atmosphere even after reasoning for a million years. But

still, in the beginning of devotional service, the cultivation of knowledge

and speculative reason has some value to get started. Srila Rupa describes

this in the NOD.

 

"some scholars recommend that knowledge and renunciation are important

factors for elevating oneself to devotional service. But actually that is not

a fact. Actually, the cultivation of knowledge or renunciation, which are

favorable for achieving a footing in Krsna consciousness, may be accepted in

the beginning, but ultimately they may also come to be rejected, for

devotional service is dependent on nothing other than the sentiment or desire

for such service. It requires nothing more than sincerity."

 

This was stated by Rupa Goswami. Then he said that for those who continue

this over-cultivation of knowledge and renunciation the result is "their

hearts become harder and harder." So with that said i will offer my humble

obheisances to my respected godbrothers and other prabhus, affectionately

Mahananda dasa