Speculating to determine the souls whereabouts

[Guest guest]

I m sorry, Gerald, but did you think I were condemning logic? As I explained,

logic is never condemned. Everything has to be understood with all reason and

logic. One who follows in Srila Prabhupada's footsteps understands that blind

following is condemned, not logic.

 

Your post has a few philosophical points that are different from

what we have learned from Srila Prabhupada but I am not inclined to address

them one by one. You are entitled to your ideas and I do not want to disturb

you, but as disciples of Srila Prabhupada, we are duty-bound to repeat his

message without change.

 

I never said that only shastra counts as evidence, or that direct perception

is for beginners. And your statement that "all three are always evidences"

that are valid in finding the absolute truth is also a misunderstanding of

what evidence is allowable and what is useless, according to the Vaisnava

acaryas. But again you are entitled to your ideas and I am not willing to

argue with someone who is set in his beliefs. We have to accept that our

conceptions that we create independently from the exact understanding given

from the pure devotees are useless and we have to become submissive and humble

to hear from the realized soul.

 

But thank you for your correcting me as to how I shall speak to Vijaya in

the future. Vijaya is twice as intelligent as you or I so he does not need

defending, do you think?. He understands what I was saying I m sure, so if he

wants to discuss the points I have presented then he will in his own time. He

can see that I was meaning him no malice, and I presented my understanding

hopefully with proper respect.

 

But you need to look at your own ideas that you have presented in your above

post and try to understand what is what according to the teachings of a pure

devotee without so much interpretation. Your story, and your analysis of the

participants does not prove any thing. You are not, not am I for that matter,

in the position to analyze the moods and activities of pure devotees and

certainly not Srimate Radharani.

 

Leave that to the realized souls and just hear from them submissively and try

not to speculate about what the activities prove or disprove. Become the

menial servant of such great souls and then maybe you will someday understand

a little the real significance of the meeting between Rupa Goswami and the

Supreme Personality of Godhead. What do you mean that Rupa Goswami used logic

to understand it was Radharani?? You say ''he was utilizing logic,'' but you

cannot say that, it is speculation, and though you might defend your saying

that, the fact remains that there is absolutely no basis for that conjecture.

Of course, you may just think or feel it's true as you do the other ideas you

presented in your text, and is ok.

 

Anyway, my dear boy, I would start with reading again what Srila Prabhupada

has taught about the different kinds of perception. I m afraid you have

misunderstood, thinking that all three types of perception are acceptable or

the same. Nothing could be or is further from the truth, as clearly indicated

in our beloved spiritual master writing, as you will certainly find if you

take the trouble to study them a little more thoroughly.

 

 

I remain aways wishing you well, Mahananda dasa

 

Vbelow are some quotes shedding light on this question of logic and

logicians(the ones promoting logic are near the bottom of the list.)

 

 

Introduction

The philosophers and the logicians have tried to understand the intrinsic

relationship of living entities with God by various conceptions and methods,

on the strength of their mundane education and scholastic research. But the

Absolute Truth remains above the philosophers and their acquired knowledge.

The conception of the Absolute is never perfectly attained by such an

ascending process, because of its being born of imperfect, material senses.

These empiric philosophers and logicians cannot realize their imperfection by

the vanity of material knowledge, and the ultimate conclusion of such

materialistic philosophers is atheism.

 

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Nectar of Devotion: Introduction :Invoking auspiciousness

Srila Rupa Gosvami prays to his spiritual master, Srila Sanatana Gosvami,

for the protection of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu--"The Ocean of the Pure Nectar of

Devotional Service"--from the argumentative logicians who unnecessarily meddle

in the science of service to the Lord. He compares their arguments and logic

to volcanic eruptions in the midst of the ocean. In the midst of the ocean,

volcanic eruptions can do very little harm, and similarly, those who are

against devotional service to the Lord and who put forward many philosophical

theses about the ultimate transcendental realization cannot disturb this great

ocean of devotional service.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

For logicians who want to accept only that which is proven through logic and

argument, it is a fact that without logic and reason there can be no question

of accepting the Absolute Truth. Unfortunately, when such logicians take to

this path without the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they remain on the

platform of logic and argument and do not advance in spiritual life. However,

if one is intelligent enough to apply his arguments and logic to the subtle

understanding of the fundamental spiritual substance, he will be able to know

thata poor fund of knowledge established on the basis of material logic cannot

help one understand the Absolute Truth, which is beyond the reach of imperfect

senses. The Mahabharata therefore says: acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams

tarkena yojayet (Mahabharata, Bhisma parva. 5.22). How can that which is

beyond the imagination or sensory speculation of mundane creatures be

approached simply by logic? Logic and argument are very poor in spiritual

strength and always imperfect when applied to spiritual understanding. By

putting forward mundane logic one frequently comes to the wrong conclusion

regarding the Absolute Truth, and as a result of such a conclusion one may

fall down to accept a body like that of a jackal.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Despite all this, those who are actually inquisitive to understand the

philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu through logic and argument are welcome.

Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami addresses them, "Please put Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu's mercy to your crucial test, and if you are actually a logician

you will come to the right conclusion that there is no personality more

merciful than Lord Caitanya." Let the logicians compare all the results of

other humanitarian work with the merciful activities of Lord Caitanya. If

their judgment is impartial, they will understand that no other humanitarian

activities can surpass those of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

Furthermore, one should not concern oneself with the conclusions of various

logicians or philosophers. Of course, those who preach sometimes need to argue

with the contentions of opponents, but as much as possible one should avoid an

argumentative attitude. In this connection, Srila Madhvacarya says:

 

aprayojana-paksam na samsrayet

naprayojana-paksi syan

na vrtha sisya-bandha-krt

na codasinah sastrani

na viruddhani cabhyaset

na vyakhyayopajiveta

na nisiddhan samacaret

evam-bhuto yatir yati

tad-eka-sarano harim

 

"There is no need to take shelter of unnecessary literature or concern

oneself with many so-called philosophers and thinkers who are useless for

spiritual advancement.

 

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

 

"Everyone has heard of Krsna, the master of Goloka. Sri Krsna whose pastimes

expansion is Narayana, is the Supreme Truth. He lives eternally in Vrndavana.

Sri Caitanya is nondifferent from Krsna, and Nabadwipa is nondifferent from

Vrndavana. Nbadwipa is the topmost spiritual abode, situated beyond this

material universe. There, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu stays eternally. By My mercy

that divine abode has descended within this world, and yet remains unaffected

by the deluding energy. This is confirmed by scripture. If one thinks

Nabadwipa to be only a material location, his devotion will be destroyed. By

My will My inconceivable energy maintians the entire transcendental realm

within this material world. It is not possible to understand this higher truth

by studying the scriptures with the help of reason and logic, for the infinite

transcends all logical analysis. I can only be understood by thi\ose devotees

to whom i reveal Myself by divine Grace''

 

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Everything is full of sense and logic, and the exchange of views between the

master and disciple is possible only when the reception is submissive and real

S B 2 3 20

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it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not

directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the

problems of life S B 3 31 48

 

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Prahlada Maharaja continued: I received this knowledge from the great saint

Narada Muni, who is always engaged in devotional service. This knowledge,

which is called bhagavata-dharma, is fully scientific. It is based on logic

and philosophy and is free from all material contamination.SB 7 6 28

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" `One who is expert in logic and understanding of revealed scriptures, and

who always has firm conviction and deep faith that is not blind, is to be

considered a topmost devotee in devotional service.' Madhya lila 22 66

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Pabhupada's Lectures Bhagavad-gita 1966 660728BG.NY

Satam prasangan, taj-josanad asv apavarga vartmani. And if you do that...

Suppose you hear something of the Bhagavad-gita, and it appeals to you, or

even does not appeal to you. Just try to think over: "What Bhagavad-gita

says? How Swamiji has discussed this matter?" Apply your arguments. Apply

your logic. Don't take it as a sentiment or as a blind faith. You have got

reason; you have got arguments; you have got sense. Apply it and try to

understand it. Neither it is bogus. It is scientific. Then you will feel...

Taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati. You

will gradually develop your attachment for hearing it, and devotional service

will binvoked in your heart, and then, gradually, you will make progress.

..................................................................................................................

'' So Krishna Consciousness has got inexhaustible treasurehouse of philosophy,

logic and science to convince people about God-consciousness''

(letter to disciple)