The Soul's Fall... The Final Word

[Guest guest]

On 17 Jul 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

> VSP wrote:

> > This is not a premise; this is from Srila Prabhupada: "The material

> > activity of the living being is beginningless." If there is a prior

> > spiritual world experience, then the material activity would not be

> > beginningless.

 

> (If there is no a prior spiritual world experience, then there

> would be no question of our *forgetfulness*)

 

Sure there could be; the forgetfulness itself would also have to be

without beginning. JIva Goswami notes "kintu anAdyAvRtasya api

sakhasya" ... which means "although the friendship, which is also

covered _without beginning_" (note: the above translation appears in

the book contested by the GBC book _Our Original Position_. Although

the OOP authors question other parts of the translation of Srila

Jiiva Goswami's work, they do not call this part of the translation

into question). So here we have a beginninglessly covered friendship

between the Lord and the living entity. It is this friendship

(relationship) that is often spoken of as forgotten; JIva Goswami's

work indicates, then, that it is "covered without beginning."

 

> There hasn't been a moment that I might be doubting in you being

> able to find out some quote like the above. The quote that containers

> some "beginningless" word in ("nittya-badha"). Neither that you

> have heard for any other explanation from anybody (including

> Prabhupada) what could it mean, but only that what you got on your

> mind.

 

> You see, here you fall in your own trap. See, in that quote that

> you supply here, it is NOT explicitly said that it is *the living

> entity* is in the material world since ever, beginninglessly.

> ONLY that **material activity** (of the living being, of course)

> is beginningless. But what happens with the living entity, *when*

> (in WHICH explicit point of eternal time) he comes and takes

> part in that "beginningless activity", you got no info nor idea.

 

The above completely ignores the context set by the Lord Himself

in the Bhagavad Gita. Srila Prabhupada explicitly says that the

"material activity _of the living entity_ is beginningless."

Activity takes 5 factors (BG 18.14); #3 is the senses. Is material

activity done by spiritual senses? No; the Madhyandinayana-zruti

describes the living entity in the spiritual world as "brahmana zRnoti

brahmana pazyati" -- he sees and hears the Supreme Lord.

Thus, the living entity has had material senses throughout this

entire beginningless material activity. Since there is no matter in

the spiritual world, that implies that the living entity has been in

the material world throughout this entire beginningless material

activity.

 

Some might argue, "Oh no, it is not the five factors that are needed

in this case; it is only free will." However, free will is not

a characteristic of the body (adhiSThAnam), senses (karanam),

or endeavors (ceSTAH); further, free will that is minute and subject

to delusion is not a characteristic of the Supreme Will (daivam).

Thus, saying that it's free will alone that acts here is equivalent

to saying that only the doer (kartA) matters. The Bhagavad-Gita

strongly rebukes such an attitude in 18.16 : "tatraivam sati

kartAram Atmanam kevalam tu yaH . pazyaty akRta buddhitvAn

na sa pazyati durmatiH" -- "Therefore one who thinks himself the

only doer, not considering the five factors, is certainly not very

intelligent and cannot see things as they are."

 

Yours,

 

Vijay S. Pai