URGENT: GBC must implement varnasrama-dharma

[Guest guest]

On 26 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > If you can't take the heat, get out of the fire. Ksatriyas by nature, will

> rise to the challenge.

 

 

 

> Yes, ksatriyas sometimes go seeking a fight. But labelling disagreeable

> brahmanas as ksatriya so we can fight with them doesn't to me seem

> particularly chivalrous. I mean, ksatriya don't simply respect and protect

> only those brahmanas who speak as they are told to speak.

 

 

"For the life life of me" I don't know what your talking about. Brahmanas can

speak however they wish and I will respect that, always. But people pretnding

to be leaders at the expense of innocent victims is inexcusable.

 

Or are you saying the crimes should be overlooked? Bad karma perhaps, Prabhu?

There is no room for sentiment as far as I am concerned. Insensitivity is

seeing children abused and cows neglected. The same management paradigm that

created those crimes is still in effect.

 

 

Srila PRabhupada said it will be chaos, it will be maya and there will be

disturbances until we establish varnasrama-dharma within this society.

 

Do you have a better social management system you would like to share with us?

I am open to discussing it.

 

 

> > Maybe a concerted effort should be attempted for once by the leaders of

> ISKCON to prioritize varnasrama-dharma preaching and dividing the society

into

> four varnas as advised by their guru maharaja. Perhaps the criticism wil

then

> abate. Try it, ya never know!

> >

>

>

> For the life of me I just don't know why Janesvara Prabhu, as a sincere

> discple, an expert ksaytriya manager and an inspiring organizer, doesn't get

> together a few of his followers and who wish to pass around the Vedic name

> tags.

 

 

You seem to show such disrespect for the catur varnya designations created by

the Lord. I think every devotee in the past was proud to identify him/herself

as a daiva sudra, daiva vaisya, daiva ksatriya or daiva brahmana.

 

 

> Surely he will attract qualified brahmanas who can give the appropriate

> guidance and qualified vaisyas to support his endeavor. Then we can all be

> practically inspired by his practical example, instead of simply hearing how

> he finds our present condition so dissapointing.

 

 

 

As I stated before, I am engaged as a ksatriya and chant the Holy names of God

everyday. I do not want followers. I do not need the GBC to protect me or

mine. Never have. I DO know there are cows, bulls, godbrothers and godsisters

of mine who desire or need protection from the designated leaders of the

social organization in which they have chosen to participate for their

spiritual and material welfare.

They have chosen this organization because they are sincere servants of the

pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave distinct orders and detailed instructions about dividing

the society into four varnas and the leaders were to provide the expert

training of every varna as their leadership responsibility.

 

This has not been done. This cannot be denied. Thus, the citizens have been

neglected and they do not deserve this. A strong voice of advocacy is one

method of changing misguided management paradigms. I will always offer any

varnasrama-dharma advice for which I am qualified to any sincere inquirer. I

have done this for 25 years as my service to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I have been criticized almost as much as the GBC, but do not let it bother me.

If I can't defend my position it is my own problem. I am not forcing anyone to

live under my "rule". My statements are my opinions and I try to quote Srila

Prabhupada as much as possible in my texts. I particpate in this conference

because I feel it is valuable to me and others who are sincerely interested in

advocating implementation of varnasrama-dharma in ISKCON and the whole world.

 

 

 

 

> > "Leaders" who attempt to scare citizens into apathy through tactics of

> control and "leader-bashing" defenses are not protecting their

> citizens.

 

 

 

> It's been a long, long time since I last heard of anyone being 'scared' by

an

> ISKCON leader. Some sanyassi simply stating his case doesn't leave me with

> nightmares, by Krsna's grace.

 

 

 

Mostly, but with due respect Prabhu, I find your position rather selfish and

self-serving. You do not like to see the GBC blamed for anything because "we

should all be taking care of ourselves". This seems to be your overall

position on everything. I may be wrong. It just appears that way to me.

 

But you seem very insensitive or maybe just unaware of the innocent victims of

mismanagement and neglectful leaders. There are many in the world and always

have been and will continue to be those who cannot nor should have to take

care of themselves fully independently, as you seem to wish to cast them off

to "their own fate". And we have ample proof of what such mismanagement can do

to our devotee citizens (cows, children and women, etc.) This is the GBC's

responsibility. They are not so easily excused from such neglect when innocent

disciples of the pure devotee are involved. Unless there is positive change

toward varnasrama-dharma the neglect of innocents will continue. This is why

Krsna convinced Arjuna to fight the battle; to provide the devotee citizens

with righteous government. Krsna had already killed everyone so Arjuna could

have just sat back and let it happen. No blame, no muss, no fuss.

 

That was not Krsna's idea, though.

[Guest guest]

On 26 Jul 1999, Bhagavata-purana das wrote:

 

> > For the life of me I just don't know why Janesvara Prabhu, as a sincere

> > discple, an expert ksaytriya manager and an inspiring organizer, doesn't

> > get together a few of his followers and who wish to pass around the Vedic

> > name tags. Surely he will attract qualified brahmanas who can give the

> > appropriate guidance and qualified vaisyas to support his endeavor. Then

> > we can all be practically inspired by his practical example, instead of

> > simply hearing how he finds our present condition so dissapointing.

 

 

> Yes. You have worded my feeling. Why he doesn´t just do it instead of

> criticizing others?

 

 

 

It is in advocacy of innocent victims. Do you care about them? Speaking can

effect change. It is an impetus for positive change.

 

 

As I have stated I am engaged. I have managed in ISKCON before, but

varnasrama-dharma was shunned. I will not manage without varnasrama-dharma as

the basis. I do not think they are interested in this Janesvara dasa

individual anyway, but I have told the GBC before that I would not manage in

ISKCON unless there was a consensus of the GBC supporting varnasrama-dharma

implementation. This is not even close to the case.

 

 

 

 

> Srila Prabhupada´s mission is multifold. As Samba pointed out, one-sided

> visions, be it varnasrama vision or big-collecting vision, are not complete.

> Different missions for different people, according to atraction.

 

 

 

No. Daiva varnasrama-dharma encompasses all. It is the perfect method of

satisfying the Lord. All can participate.

 

 

 

 

> To try to impose a one-sided vision on others, even if it is such a

> comprehensive vision as varnasrama-dharma, was not Srila Prabhupada´s mood.

 

 

Prabhupada said we MUST do it. It is 50% of his program and he lamented that

it is the one thing he did not finish. He wanted us to finish it. It should be

the main priority amongst other lesser programs.

 

 

 

> He never pushed a kind of service at the expense of others, but always

> respected everyone´s engagement. He always repeated "variety is the mother

> of enjoyment", "Krsna is the enjoyer of different kinds of services".

 

 

This is sahajyism. Devotional engagement in the material world is within the

parameters of daiva varnasrama-dharma. To speculate otherwise is just that.

You cannot just make up some new approach to service to Krsna.

 

"In other words, the system of varnasrama-dharma is known also as

sanatana-dharma, or eternal occupation." S.B. 1.19.4.

 

"The Vedas describe how to divide the human race into four divisions according

to quality and working capacity. This is a very scientific system. ...This

system is sanatana, it comes from time immemorial and it will continue in the

same way. There is no power in the world which can stop it. Therefore since

this sanatana-dharma system is eternal, one can elevate himself to the highest

standard of spiritual life by following the Vedic principles." SB 4.2.31

 

"The Vedic system of varna and asrama is never to be neglected because the

divisions are created by the Supreme Lord Himself for the upkeep of social and

religious order in human society. The brahmanas, as the intelligent class in

human society, must be avowed to steadily respect this regulative principle.

The tendency in this age of Kali to make a classless society and not observe

the principles of varna and asrama is a manifestation of an IMPOSSIBLE DREAM."

SB 4.6.44

 

 

 

He

> gave many different instructions to different people in different times. No

> one can say "this is the most important instruction".

 

 

"Visnujana Swami: This is the most auspicious work for now, this remedial

measure to stop the chaos in the world right now.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, most auspicious. If the people are in chaos, how will

they be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires a cool brain."

 

 

 

> The only one most

> important instruction is to develop love for God. All other dharmas,

> varnasrama 1974 instructions included, are subservient to this one.

 

 

Nice sentiment, Prabhu, but that is not Srila Prabhupada's program:

 

 

"Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was

not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: Yes. ...He said it was not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya

Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of

material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: NO. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna

consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa.

He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be

niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the...

That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the

whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected

meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He

was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we

shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come

to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. ... we are preaching.

We are preaching. Therefore we must

pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the

spiritual plane...

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am

not ksatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the

Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krsna..., preaching

Krsna consciousness. It must be done."

 

 

 

 

If we

> take varnasrama´s 74 and try to impose it on others without appreciating the

> service that others have done or are doing,

 

 

It is all daiva varnasrama-dharma and IS appreciated in that way. It must be

RECOGNIZED as varnasrama-dharma so that people are engaged in that which they

are fit for. No specualting or accepting positions against ones nature and

karma.

 

 

> "Mine´s is the only valid approach. All others are deviated".

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's is the only valid approach and he advised daiva

varnasrama-dharma, clearly.

 

 

> Srila Prabhupada said many times: This is the most important thing to do,

> speaking of many different matters. Book distribution is the most important

> thing, Farming is the most important thing, Deity Worship is the most

> important thing, street Harinam is the most important thing...

 

 

Yes, but all of the above IS daiva varnasrama-dharma. The divisions simply

have to be instituted amongst the people so that everyone is engaged in that

work for which they are fit, according to guna and karma.

ISKCON leadership tries and has tried unsuccessfully for 25 years to force

everyone to become brahmana.

 

"Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship,

brahmana...

Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this?

Brahmanas are also available, sudras are also available. Why sudra should be

artificially become a brahmana?"

 

"Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But

because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the

platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system

must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava."

 

 

ys,

Jd

[Guest guest]

> > Then, in VAD, brahmancaris generally weren't trained to be farmers.

>

The traditional gurukulas were all rural, and cow protection was an integral

part of the brahmacari training. Even for the future brahmanas and kings.

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> >

> > > It is very risky to accept money or food from materialistic persons,

> > > for such acceptance pollutes the mind of the charity's recipient.

> >

> > buying produce at the market is not accepting charity.

>

> And we chant the magic mantra and instantly it's filled with love and

> devotion.

 

Maybe, maybe not. But we still got to differentiate in between

charity and trade. Charity carries the good amount of personal

karma along (so you got to be very careful from whom to accept

it, and what exactly to do with it). The fair price given for

the goods is eliminating that particular aspect.

 

 

"Love&devotion" seams to me to be a quite some jump from "very risky"

to "not very risky". As if your self-produced products are instantly

filled with love and devotion [to God].

 

It is the process of sacrifice that frees one form the sinful

reactions. Simply avoiding trade with "materialists" is not some

"risk-free" formula. Wether your mind will be polluted or not,

it's up to what and how you do with the goods. "yagna-sistasinah

santo mucyate sarva-kilbisaih...The devotees of Lord are released

from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered

first for sacrifice." In the purport, Prabhupada comments:

"... and this performance of yagnas keep them always aloof from

all kinds of contamination of sinful association in the material

world."

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> On 26 Jul 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

>

> > > >

> > >

> > > Again, who is stopping like minded devotees from pursuing a simple

> > > natural

> life? Why does every initiative need to be approved and led by a 'big

> brother' who mirrors our every personal conviction?

> >

> > Money.

> >

>

>

> Simplicity does not require wealth -- austerity is the wealth of the

> brahmanas. And besides, I doubt you can buy VAD. Even if you could, ISKCON

> isn't an organization swimming in cash.

 

I think he means to buy land.

[Guest guest]

> > Then, in VAD, brahmancaris generally weren't trained to be farmers.

>

The traditional gurukulas were all rural, and cow protection was an integral

part of the brahmacari training. Even for the future brahmanas and kings.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

> I think he means to buy land.

 

 

 

Generally places where simple living is more condusive one finds that land can

be bought at extremely reasonable prices. The capitalistic market dictates

high value on land that is both commerically viable and centrally located with

regards to their market.

[Guest guest]

On 26 Jul 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> >

> > Not everyone even in Krsna's time was a devotee.

>

> Ya think? Is that meant to imply that the foodstuffs in the cities that

krsna lived in came from nondevotees? you really think that?

>

>

 

Well, the lady who was selling fruit turned out to be a devotee, but the guy

washing the clothes didn't. Maybe he had a brother somewhere growing

eggplants -- it's difficult telling for sure who was growing the produce in

Dvarka!

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Krsnendu das wrote:

 

> > > Then, in VAD, brahmancaris generally weren't trained to be farmers.

> >

 

 

> The traditional gurukulas were all rural, and cow protection was an integral

part of the brahmacari training. Even for the future brahmanas and kings.

>

 

 

I can certainly agree that there must have been a well rounded education that

included basic cow protection. It would be easy to imagine a well established

gurukula having both a cow or two and a garden. Then those inclined toward a

carear as a Vaisya would pursue those interests further.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

>

> > Similarly, members can also consider commanding the respect, and not

> demanding the respect, from those in leadership positions.

>

>

> Interesting turn of an otherwise meaningful truth. Doesn't make much sense,

but interesting.

>

 

 

Well, if I was to try and make sense out of it, I might say that there is more

to positive action than complaining. In other words, one can work with

'leaders' on many different levels.

 

 

> Citizens have the distinct right and duty to DEMAND protection by leaders

for those needing protection (cows, women, children and the implementation of

varnasrama for all). This has not been the case over the last 20+ years.

>

> Or maybe you are saying it was the victims fault?

>

>

 

 

There is also a saying, 'Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on

me'. I can't say that makes much sense either, but regularly playing victim to

the audience's sentiments can sometimes grow thin. On the other hand, we don't

wish to condone abusive behavior.

 

 

 

> Through education citizens will become confident in asserting their right to

protection by their leaders.

>

 

On the other hand, I don't think it fair to expect our leaders to be our

personal 'Santa Clause'. Just as Prabhupada admonished us not to expect of

Krsna to be our order supplier, similarly, our leaders are not infallible or

unlimited, despite whatever niave expectations we may have come to join ISKCON

with.

 

Ultimately our shelter is in Krsna and the process of Krsna consciousness, and

not in some idea of an external material arrangement. Even in Krsna's time

(when VAD culture was prominant)there was abusive behaviour exhibited by the

leaders of society, and I ain't just talking growing turnips! Geez, wasn't

Hiranyakasipu and Hiranyaksa residing during Satya-yuga, which reminds me of

Ravanna during Treta, etc, etc.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 26 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> "For the life life of me" I don't know what your talking about. Brahmanas

can speak however they wish and I will respect that, always. But people

pretnding to be leaders at the expense of innocent victims is inexcusable.

>

 

 

It can sometimes get too easy glibbly calling those who are not in our favor

'pretenders'.

 

 

 

> Or are you saying the crimes should be overlooked?

 

 

Crimes should be dealt with progressively, not that we wish to

institutionalize disfunctional behavior.

 

 

 

>

> Do you have a better social management system you would like to share with

us? I am open to discussing it.

>

>

 

Social management always needs to be there. VAD principles are powerful tools

for us to apply in developin our devotional culture.

 

 

>

> Mostly, but with due respect Prabhu, I find your position rather selfish and

self-serving. You do not like to see the GBC blamed for anything because "we

should all be taking care of ourselves". This seems to be your overall

position on everything. I may be wrong. It just appears that way to me.

>

 

 

Leaders may come and go, that does not absolve us from taking personal

responsibility for our devotional lives. In that regard, yes, I don't see that

there are any magic bullets.

 

> But you seem very insensitive or maybe just unaware of the innocent victims

of mismanagement and neglectful leaders.

>

 

 

Yes, I have seen my share. Unfortunately there will always be 'innocent'

victims in this world. Again, that is not an excuse for institutionalizing

abusive behavior. Still, there is more that can be done than simply pointing

fingers, 'you are an abuser'.

 

Since you claim to be a ksatriya, one who protects, I would feel that much

more inspired seeing how you are actually protecting people, as compared to

criticizing others inabilities in that area.

 

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 26 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>Brahmanas

> can speak however they wish and I will respect that, always. But people

> pretending to be leaders at the expense of innocent victims is inexcusable.

 

 

 

> It can sometimes get too easy glibbly calling those who are not in our favor

> 'pretenders'.

 

 

It can sometimes get too easy calling those who are not qualified to lead,

leaders, though they don't protect the citizens. Engage them elsewise for

their own good and the good of others. "But we don't have any other

"qualified" leaders to take their place". Best we start training according to

varnasrama-dharma immediately.

 

 

 

> > Or are you saying the crimes should be overlooked?

>

>

> Crimes should be dealt with progressively,

 

 

 

What the hell does that mean? Let criminals go free because they are

"devotees"?

 

 

 

> > Do you have a better social management system you would like to share with

> us? I am open to discussing it.

 

 

 

> Social management always needs to be there. VAD principles are powerful

tools

> for us to apply in developin our devotional culture.

 

 

Daiva varnasrama-dharma IS devotional service. Let's get this straight. Do you

disagree?

 

 

 

> Leaders may come and go, that does not absolve us from taking personal

> responsibility for our devotional lives.

 

 

Devotional lives is one thing, material lives is another. THAT is what leaders

hold responsibility for. People will not be too eager to take up devotional

practice if their bodies are not protected and given care. Varna first, asrama

later.

 

 

 

 

>In that regard, yes, I don't see that

> there are any magic bullets.

 

 

 

We are talking about two different things. Leaders MUST engage everyone

according to guna and karma. Bodily responsibility. It cannot be neglected out

of so-called transcendental detachment. One out of billions can be so

detached.

 

 

 

> > But you seem very insensitive or maybe just unaware of the innocent

victims

> of mismanagement and neglectful leaders.

 

 

 

> Yes, I have seen my share. Unfortunately there will always be 'innocent'

> victims in this world. Again, that is not an excuse for institutionalizing

> abusive behavior. Still, there is more that can be done than simply pointing

> fingers, 'you are an abuser'.

 

 

Yes, exactly. Are you recommending a different course than Krsna's plan of

catur-varnyam?

 

I have asked it several times and have yet to receive an answer: What social

system has the GBC been following and promoting for the members of this

society for the last 25 years? Certainly not varnasrama-dharma.

 

 

> Since you claim to be a ksatriya, one who protects, I would feel that much

> more inspired seeing how you are actually protecting people, as compared to

> criticizing others inabilities in that area.

 

 

I am NOT criticizing their "inabilities" only their neglect to carry out a

simple instruction of the guru - start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center for

EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY. What good excuse can they possibly offer for not

doing this? Do they not believe it will work?

 

I do not criticize anyone as a devotee of the Lord. They are all mahatmas. But

one must admit ones weaknesses and nature. If one is not qualified to be a

ksatriya or brahmana, etc., due to ones guna and karma they must seek out

other engagement for the good of the others. The good of the many must always

outweigh the good of the few.

 

 

It is a simple fact that the GBC has not even come close to implementing

varnasrama-dharma as described by Srila Prabhupada for more than 25 years.

This is a very, very poor record of management. The casualties are many and

serious. The medicine was prescribed by the pure "doctor" before he "left" us,

but we have not taken up the task.

 

Tell me how to get this point across expeditiously to people who have somehow

or other decided that varnasrama-dharma is NOT the right medicine.

 

Why should we have to wait for one more day before demanding their instituting

the order of Srila Prabhupada to start varnasrama "colleges" in EVERY center

for EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY? This is the right of every righteous citizen.

Especially after giving them 25 years to prove themselves. I think that is

PLENTY of patience. It has to stop, this neglect of cows, women, children, and

citizens desiring to be engaged in their sanatana-dharma.

 

 

On my personal account, I have been protecting four sons all of their lives. I

have also been providing ksatriya services in and out of ISKCON to human

beings on and off for 25 years. There is much, much more to do and I sincerely

hope to become more and more fully engaged in spreading the daiva

varnasrama-dharma movement proportionately as I am relieved of

family responsibilities. I will commit all personal assets and abilities

to do this. I will offer to lead and manage in any capacity for which I am

qualified regarding varnasrama-dharma.

 

 

 

It is not that speaking/preaching about varnasrama-dharma is of NO use,

Prabhu. Many devotees I have corresponded with never even read the morning

walk conversations regarding VAD by Srila Prabhupada. I have been distributing

reprints for 25 years to anyone desiring the same. Many, after reading them,

have expressed immense inspiration and a feeling of direction in their own

lives.

 

I am one man. I am insignificant, alone. If many small twigs group together

they cannot be broken.

 

 

ys,

Jd

[Guest guest]

>

> > And we chant the magic mantra and instantly it's filled with love and

> > devotion.

>

> Maybe, maybe not. But we still got to differentiate in between

> charity and trade. Charity carries the good amount of personal

> karma along (so you got to be very careful from whom to accept

> it, and what exactly to do with it). The fair price given for

> the goods is eliminating that particular aspect.

 

And paying the blood subsidized market price for milk doesn't eliminate it.

 

>

>

> "Love&devotion" seams to me to be a quite some jump from "very risky"

> to "not very risky". As if your self-produced products are instantly

> filled with love and devotion [to God].

 

Not instantly. It starts at the point where the decision is taken to plant

something, making arrangements for the seeds, planting, controling weeds and

pests, and right through to harvest. At which point you can still chant the

magic mantra.

[Guest guest]

>

> >

>

> Well, the lady who was selling fruit turned out to be a devotee, but the guy

> washing the clothes didn't. Maybe he had a brother somewhere growing

> eggplants -- it's difficult telling for sure who was growing the produce in

> Dvarka!

 

I think the reason it is never mentioned who produced the foodstuffs is that it

was so obvious. Certainly we know that Nanda Maharajah was producing excess

that seems logically to have made it's way to the city.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

>

> I think the reason it is never mentioned who produced the foodstuffs is that

it was so obvious. Certainly we know that Nanda Maharajah was producing

excess that seems logically to have made it's way to the city.

>

 

 

I would suspect everything grown by Nanda Maharaja was at least as auspicious

as Deity Maha, but not every cutlivating the land was a devotee. I mean, there

were a lot of Ksatriyas killed by Krsna who were considered demons.

 

In other words, simply living in a VAD culture doesn't mean we are living in

the original Goloka Vrndavana.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

>

> It can sometimes get too easy calling those who are not qualified to lead,

leaders, though they don't protect the citizens.

>

>

 

Suddenly telling people to chant, dance, and take prasadam is not devotional

service.

 

 

> > Crimes should be dealt with progressively,

>

> What the hell does that mean? Let criminals go free because they are

> "devotees"?

>

 

Probably it means encouraging Janesvara Prabhu actually do something

practical, like start a VAD community were everyone feels protected.

 

 

 

>

>

> > > Do you have a better social management system you would like to share

with

> > us? I am open to discussing it.

>

>

>

> > Social management always needs to be there. VAD principles are powerful

> tools

> > for us to apply in developin our devotional culture.

>

>

> Daiva varnasrama-dharma IS devotional service. Let's get this straight. Do

you disagree?

>

 

 

Varnasrama principles can be engaged in devotional service very readily. In

traditional VAD, there were also demons in leadership positions. At least

there were the last time I read Krsna book, or the Mahabharata or Ramayana.

 

 

>

>

> Devotional lives is one thing, material lives is another. THAT is what

leaders hold responsibility for. People will not be too eager to take up

devotional practice if their bodies are not protected and given care. Varna

first, asrama later.

>

>

 

 

In the neophyte condition, our enthusiasm is governed by our external

condition. So as devotees we should not allow ourselves to be governed by such

things.

 

 

 

>

> We are talking about two different things. Leaders MUST engage everyone

> according to guna and karma. Bodily responsibility. It cannot be neglected

out of so-called transcendental detachment. One out of billions can be so

detached.

>

 

Yes, and devotees are doing that to the best of their realization. Simply

labeling the affair 'VAD' is nothing but a labeling affair. We have a long way

to go with regards to our expertise as devotees.

 

 

>

>

> > > But you seem very insensitive or maybe just unaware of the innocent

> victims

> > of mismanagement and neglectful leaders.

>

>

>

> > Yes, I have seen my share. Unfortunately there will always be 'innocent'

> > victims in this world. Again, that is not an excuse for institutionalizing

> > abusive behavior. Still, there is more that can be done than simply

pointing

> > fingers, 'you are an abuser'.

>

>

> Yes, exactly. Are you recommending a different course than Krsna's plan of

catur-varnyam?

>

 

I am recommending that devotees take to the process of devotional service

whole-heartedly so they can be blessed with practical and tangeable

realizations on how to engage sophisticated programs like VAD. Simply blasting

others is not a progressive way to establish VAD, in my book.

 

 

> I have asked it several times and have yet to receive an answer: What social

system has the GBC been following and promoting for the members of this

society for the last 25 years? Certainly not varnasrama-dharma.

>

 

Gee, I go to temples and I see devotees engaged in service, cooking for the

deities, chanting, distributing books, and so on. I guess that isn't pleasing

to Srila Prabhupada any more.

 

Then there are devotee familys raising their children to appreciate devotional

service and working to maintain a devotional enviroment at home, but I guess

that's maya, too.

 

 

 

>

> I do not criticize anyone as a devotee of the Lord. They are all mahatmas.

>

 

Then why don't YOU do something besides complain about it. Obviously we have

far to go on these accounts as a society. Acting like chicken little saying

the sky is falling in just don't cut it with me.

 

Why don't YOU work to establish a VAD school in you local area. Surely there

are devotees you associate with that are similarly interested. Why don't YOU

buy some land and invite devotees to start a community based on VAD

principles. I mean, it seems as if you waiting for some mythical leader to

come and do it all for you. Why don't you allow Krsna to give you the credit

for doing something that you feel is most pleasing to Srila Prabhuda.

 

Theres a saying that those who can't do, teach; but in this case it might be

more appropriate that those who can't do, complain.

 

 

 

 

 

> This is a very, very poor record of management. The casualties are many and

serious. The medicine was prescribed by the pure "doctor" before he "left" us,

but we have not taken up the task.

>

 

I certainly agree that obsessing on establishing VAD is an improvement over

joining another Gaudiya ashrama or reinventing the disciplic succession.

 

 

> Tell me how to get this point across expeditiously to people who have

somehow or other decided that varnasrama-dharma is NOT the right medicine.

>

 

VAD is a potent medicine, but it is not a magic bullet. One still has to

rectify his relationship with Krsna, VAD or no VAD.

 

 

> Why should we have to wait for one more day before demanding their

instituting the order of Srila Prabhupada to start varnasrama "colleges" in

EVERY center for EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY?

>

 

 

Then start one, please. There are a few already, but I'm sure yours will be

much better.

 

 

 

>

>

> On my personal account, I have been protecting four sons all of their lives.

 

>

 

 

Great, so obviously you are qualified to start of VAD school for them and

others.

 

>

> It is not that speaking/preaching about varnasrama-dharma is of NO use,

> Prabhu. Many devotees I have corresponded with never even read the morning

walk conversations regarding VAD by Srila Prabhupada. I have been distributing

reprints for 25 years to anyone desiring the same. Many, after reading them,

have expressed immense inspiration and a feeling of direction in their own

lives.

>

> I am one man. I am insignificant, alone. If many small twigs group together

they cannot be broken.

>

 

Since you already have inspired devotees who share your vision, then do

something about it already. Please start a school or a community. I am sure

all the Vaisnavas will be inspired by your sincere attempt, even if you do not

succeed according to all your expectations. But please do something more than

whine about our lamentable GBC. I mean, we already have so many devotees much

more expert at it than you.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

>

> I would suspect everything grown by Nanda Maharaja was at least as auspicious

> as Deity Maha, but not every cutlivating the land was a devotee.

 

Could you provide a basis for that statement.

 

> I mean, there

> were a lot of Ksatriyas killed by Krsna who were considered demons.

 

Ksatriyas , yes, but vaisyas?

 

>

>

> In other words, simply living in a VAD culture doesn't mean we are living in

> the original Goloka Vrndavana.

 

I think we have strayed far from the point. VAD is a socio economic system,

wherein devotees mutually support each other. Foodstuffs produced by devotees

is better for devotees to consume. I am having a little difficulty

understanding your objection to that.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 27 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> > It can sometimes get too easy calling those who are not qualified to lead,

> leaders, though they don't protect the citizens.

 

 

> Suddenly telling people to chant, dance, and take prasadam is not devotional

> service.

>

 

 

When did I ever say anything like this? I never take anything away from those

who are rightly situated and not holding pretentious positions wherein they

take on responsibilities to innocent people needing help and protection for

which they are not qualified to provide for sufficiently.

 

You can't possibly support such misappropriation of resources where the result

is terrible suffering which can be avoided through proper application of

varnasrama-dharma management?

 

Or do you feel that varnasrama-dharma is a waste of time ultimately because

this materila world is a place of suffering and therefore we, as devotees who

are transcendental to it, should just sit back and let it go away?

 

Suffering is after all, only in the mind? "You're not that body Prabhu, quit

complaining about being sexually, physically and mentally abused".

 

And those cows and bulls? Well, the karmis are supplying us good cheap milk

why bother with the trouble of cow protection? Devotees should be

concentrating on their spiritual lives not cleaning up bullshit.

 

 

> > > Crimes should be dealt with progressively,

 

> > What the hell does that mean? Let criminals go free because they are

> > "devotees"?

> >

 

> Probably it means encouraging Janesvara Prabhu actually do something

> practical, like start a VAD community were everyone feels protected.

 

 

So, varnasrama-dharma has no worth until Janesvara dasa PROVES it to all of us

that HE can do it. Otherwise it is Janesvara dasa's fantasy and we are all

better off sticking to our hellish ideas.

 

"Harikesa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person

is worthy of...

Prabhupada: No, no. Beginning Krsna. Why don't you read Bhagavad- Gita? You

don't know?

Harikesa: No, no. Yes.

Prabhupada: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikesa: That Krsna created the four orders.

Prabhupada: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in

order. But you are not taking Krsna's advice. You are manufacturing your

hellish ideas."

 

 

Don't do anything because I said to do it; do it because Srila Prabhupada said

it is the BEST idea.

 

Every single morning I get up and think and study about varnasrama-dharma. I

try to live my life according to that study. I have not made much significant

progress, yet. But I have at least taken up the task of doing it everyday. Is

there something wrong with following Srila Prabhupada's advice?

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> >

> > > > Do you have a better social management system you would like to share

> with

> > > us? I am open to discussing it.

> >

> >

> >

> > > Social management always needs to be there. VAD principles are powerful

> > tools

> > > for us to apply in developin our devotional culture.

> >

> >

> > Daiva varnasrama-dharma IS devotional service. Let's get this straight. Do

> you disagree?

 

 

 

> Varnasrama principles can be engaged in devotional service very readily.

 

Now we have come to the fundamental mistake in your reasoning. You do not

accept daiva varnasrama-dharma as devotional service to the Lord.

If this is truly your conception of daiva varnasrama-dharma there is nothing

that can be said in this conference which will ultimately satisfy you.

 

Unfortunately, you are very mistaken.

 

"In other words, the system of varnasrama-dharma is known also as

sanatana-dharma, or eternal occupation." S.B. 1.19.4.

 

Sanatana-dharma is not devotional service?

 

 

"This system is sanatana, it comes from time immemorial and it will continue

in the same way. There is no power in the world which can stop it. Therefore

since this sanatana-dharma system is eternal, one can elevate himself to the

highest standard of spiritual life by following the Vedic principles." SB

4.2.31

 

"One should observe the principles of varna and asrama strictly for the

satisfaction of the creator, for it is stated in the Bg by Lord Krsna that the

four orders of the social system... are His creation. They should act

according to the regulative principles of this institution and satisfy the

Lord, just as different parts of the body all engage in the service of the

whole. The whole is the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His virata-rupa or

universal form. The brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are respectively

the mouth, arms, abdomen and legs of the universal form of the Lord. So long

as they are engaged in the service of the complete whole, their position is

secure, otherwise they fall down from their respective positions and become

degraded." SB 4.6.44

 

Is this not devotional service Srila Prabhupada is referring to? "engaged in

the service of the complete whole"?

 

 

"In the Visnu Purana it is stated that unless people are educated or situated

in the scientific social order comprised of four varnas and four asramas

society can never be considered real human society, nor can it make any

advancement toward the ultimate goal of human life.

 

"In perfect human society, people are situated in the orders of varna and

asrama and are engaged in worshiping Lord Visnu by their respective

activities.

Every citizen engaged in an occupation renders service by the resultant

actions of his activities. That is the perfection of life." Srimad Bhagavatam

4.14.18

 

Is this "perfection of life" something different than devotional service in

your mind?

 

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the proper

execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is no

other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One must be situated

in the institution of the four varnas and asramas."

 

"It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to

continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing

to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious

society." S.B. 5.1.24

 

 

>In

> traditional VAD, there were also demons in leadership positions. At least

> there were the last time I read Krsna book, or the Mahabharata or Ramayana.

 

 

A demon is never applying bhakti with his varnasrama dharma. That is why he is

called a demon! Bhakti and varnasrama=daiva varnasrama-dharma. A world of

difference between Yudhistira's VAD and Ravana's VAD.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

 

> > Devotional lives is one thing, material lives is another. THAT is what

> leaders hold responsibility for. People will not be too eager to take up

> devotional practice if their bodies are not protected and given care. Varna

> first, asrama later.

> >

> >

>

>

> In the neophyte condition, our enthusiasm is governed by our external

> condition. So as devotees we should not allow ourselves to be governed by

such

> things.

 

 

So, as ISKCON devotees we are transcendental to varnasrama-dharma? Our history

really reflects that!

 

 

"Maharaja Prithu did not allow himself to function outside the institution of

four varnas and four asramas, although as a Vaishnava he was a paramahamsa,

transcendental to all material activities. He remained at his position as a

ksatriya to rule the world and at the same time remained transcendental to

such activities by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

S.B. 4.22.50.

 

 

So we are now better than Prithu Maharaja?

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > We are talking about two different things. Leaders MUST engage everyone

> > according to guna and karma. Bodily responsibility. It cannot be neglected

> out of so-called transcendental detachment. One out of billions can be so

> detached.

> >

>

> Yes, and devotees are doing that to the best of their realization. Simply

> labeling the affair 'VAD' is nothing but a labeling affair. We have a long

way

> to go with regards to our expertise as devotees.

 

 

 

Tell me honestly: do you feel the GBC should start varnasrama colleges in

every center as per Srila Prabhupada's orders 25 years ago? The instructions

have been there for 25 years but have not been followed. What "expertise" is

needed to follow simple instructions?

[Guest guest]

> I can certainly agree that there must have been a well rounded education

> that included basic cow protection. It would be easy to imagine a well

> established gurukula having both a cow or two and a garden. Then those

> inclined toward a carear as a Vaisya would pursue those interests further.

 

At the risk of sounding over repetitive, from research I have done, I find

it is quite clear that in traditional societies, practicaly every family

grew their own food. Even in the cities. Using modern natural farming, it

has been shown that 4000 Sq feet is enough to feed a family for a year,

using a particular natural farming method (grains in rotation with veggies).

Most vedic cities were full of open spaces, parks gardens etc.

 

Not just vaisyas grew food.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > > Again, that is not an excuse for institutionalizing

> > > abusive behavior. Still, there is more that can be done than simply

> pointing

> > > fingers, 'you are an abuser'.

 

 

> > Yes, exactly. Are you recommending a different course than Krsna's plan of

> catur-varnyam?

> >

 

 

> I am recommending that devotees take to the process of devotional service

> whole-heartedly so they can be blessed with practical and tangeable

> realizations on how to engage sophisticated programs like VAD. Simply

blasting

> others is not a progressive way to establish VAD, in my book.

 

 

Your book is obviously not Srila Prabhupada's book. I am not "blasting"

others. These are simply computer words. Besides, little Janesvara dasa has

very little impact on anyone.

 

My contributions are harsh reminders to the LEADERS to follow the order of the

spiritual master as regards implementing varnasrama-dharma in this society.

This is my duty. Thankless as it may be. It has become harsh, and will get

harsher, as more time goes by. 25 years is a long time to simply ignore the

instructions to start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center for EVERY devotee,

EVERYDAY.

 

When the GBC agrees to start even simple one room varnasrama counseling

centers in EVERY center for EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY, I will cease all

criticism. I promise.

 

I will pledge to read aloud to any aspiring devotees the complete contents of

Srila Prabhupada's VAD morning walk conversations everyday in such a

counseling room.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > I have asked it several times and have yet to receive an answer: What

social

> system has the GBC been following and promoting for the members of this

> society for the last 25 years? Certainly not varnasrama-dharma.

> >

>

> Gee, I go to temples and I see devotees engaged in service, cooking for the

> deities, chanting, distributing books, and so on. I guess that isn't

pleasing

> to Srila Prabhupada any more.

 

 

You didn't asnswer the question, again. I have never received an answer to the

question. Only sentiment. Lip service.

 

 

So, ISKCON has devised some new social system of which the symptoms are as you

have described above and it is proof positive of successful protection of

cows, women and children? Sorry, there is incredible proof to the opposite. Do

you have ISKCON/GBC blinders on? If it was one of your children who had been

sexually assaulted, would you be so positive about the outward show of

"devotion".

 

Bhavananda was very good at showing the symptoms of "devotion" to Srila

Prabhupada as were others like Ramesvara, Bhagavana, Jayatirtha, Kirtanananda,

etc., but in reality they were abusing human beings daily.

All the book distribution and Deity worship in the world is not going to

please Srila Prabhupada if these people are doing this. His movement has been

given a very bad name throughout the world as the result of this stuff.

 

We can hardly be proud of what we have done to it. We SHOULD be ashamed.

We own an apology to the entire world and especially to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada said he did everything else (though we have spoiled much of that)

and that only the other half need be completed - varnasrama-dharma

implementation. Do you believe he said this, Prabhu?

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> Then there are devotee familys raising their children to appreciate

devotional

> service and working to maintain a devotional enviroment at home, but I guess

> that's maya, too.

 

 

Not maya. They are devotees of the Lord. But they have a right to be governed

according to the Lords divine institution of varnasrama-dharma. And without it

in their own lives things will be very troublesome. Why reject the medicine?

What sense is this? It's stubborn and useless.

 

 

 

> > I do not criticize anyone as a devotee of the Lord. They are all mahatmas.

> >

>

> Then why don't YOU do something besides complain about it.

 

 

You see it as complaining. Others see it as advocacy for a desireable paradigm

shift in management. To each his own. I personally find your apathy and

failure to give or support any practical solution according to scripture for

the social chaos and criminal acts of violence against innocent human beings

despicable.

 

I could ask what are YOU doing to establish varnasrama-dharma according to

Srila Prabhupada's instructions in his morning walks and elsewhere.

I find you only saying we are incapable of implementing varnasrama-dharma. You

want asrama first, varna later; the opposite of Srila Prabhupada's advice.

 

 

Have you ever tried preaching in support of Srila Prabhupada's order to start

varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of his movement?

 

 

 

> Obviously we have

> far to go on these accounts as a society. Acting like chicken little saying

> the sky is falling in just don't cut it with me.

 

 

But we are NOT taking the prescription given by Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

 

> Why don't YOU work to establish a VAD school in you local area. Surely there

> are devotees you associate with that are similarly interested. Why don't YOU

> buy some land and invite devotees to start a community based on VAD

> principles. I mean, it seems as if you waiting for some mythical leader to

> come and do it all for you.

 

 

I have plans and aspirations for all of the above and more. I sincerely want

to do this and have been planning it for years. I have researched grants,

loans, investments, partnerships and land purchase. I have been communicating

with devotees around the globe with similar interests and have formulated

concepts and programs.

 

These things take time, money and resources. But at least I spend the majority

of my time thinking feeling and willing this program to happen. If it does,

great. If it doesn't I at least tried. But people like you and the GBC want

some shmuck like me to try without the resources available to the leaders, so

I will fail miserably and you can all sit back and say I told ya so.

 

You don't really want me to do something because you don't really think it can

happen. True?

 

 

 

>Why don't you allow Krsna to give you the credit

> for doing something that you feel is most pleasing to Srila Prabhuda.

 

 

I need no credit. I only want to do my part to try to fulfill the other half

of Srila Prabhuipada's mission - varnasrama-dharma. You don't even seem to

think it is important, or worse, we can never do it until we become pure

devotees first. Then what is the use of the "tool" that you refer to

varnasrama-dharma as?

 

 

 

> Theres a saying that those who can't do, teach; but in this case it might be

> more appropriate that those who can't do, complain.

 

 

I find it to be education. Informing others of Srila Prabhupada's preaching

regarding varnasrama-dharma. Many find it exciting because it is never

discussed in ISKCON though clearly a priority to Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

> I certainly agree that obsessing on establishing VAD

 

 

 

I like "obsessing" on devotional service. You see the caste system. I try to

see Krsna's perfect catur varnyam system. Discussing every single word spoken

by Srila Prabhupada about it year in and year out is pure nectar to me.