URGENT: GBC must implement varnasrama-dharma

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > Please show some quotes from Srila Prabhupada where he refers to daiva

> > varnasrama-dharma as a "powerful tool" or any such reference of VAD being

a

> "tool".

 

 

 

> How about 'utility is the principle'

 

 

Weak. Very weak.

 

I don't read the word "tool" anywhere in this saying and besides I don't think

Srila Prabhupada ever said it. In any case, it supports implementation of

varnasrama-dharma.

 

 

 

> > Also, what is it that you would say a person "does" when he is performing

> "pure devotional service" but not involved with varnasrama-dharma. What are

> his activities?

 

 

 

> It is difficult imagining that the residents of Vrndavana loved Krsna

because

> they were vaisyas, etc. I mean they loved Krsna because they just plain

loved

> Krsna.

 

 

They loved Krsna AND they were expert, fully engaged, dedicated, hard working,

focused vaisyas at the same time. That is the point. Because they, the living

entities were loving Krsna, their bodies manifested the symptoms through the

daiva varnasrama-dharma system - the most elevated divine system of human

civilization. There is no higher form of human civilization. A human society

not divided into the four varnas is not a human civilization.

 

"The institution which gives such training is called varnasrama-dharma, or the

system of sanatana-dharma, the best procedure for making the human life

perfect." S.B. 2.1.15.

 

"Distinction of human life and animal life therefore begins with the

scientific system of varna and asrama, guided by the experience of the sages

in relation with the demigods, gradually rising to the summit of

reestablishing our eternal relation with the Supreme Absolute Truth

Personality of Godhead Lord Sri Krsna. When God-made varnasrama-dharma, which

is strictly meant for developing animal consciousness into godly

consciousness, is broken by advancement of foolishness, the whole system of

peaceful and progressive life is at once disturbed." SB 1.16.31

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

 

> Whatever we do during the day to keep ourselves busy can certainly be

engaged

> nicely in a traditional VAD culture, but ultimately our relationship with

> Krsna is an affair of the heart.

 

 

Yes, but varnasrama-dharma creates the MOST conducive atmosphere to cultivate

love of God. We do not have this atmosphere in ISKCON and thus advancement is

extremely troublesome and slow and many lose patience or faith and fall away.

This is not good. It is not that no one is doing devotional service in ISKCON,

everyone is a devotee in ISKCON, and there are also many devotees of God in

the Christian, Muslim and Hindu faiths as well. But without the methodical

organization of varnasrama-dharma most of us will remain in the lesser stages

of devotional service for entire lifetimes. There is too much troubling of the

mind and body in a society without varnasrama-dharma organization. This is

quite apparent in ISKCON. This is NOT meant as a criticism; it is meant as a

hint that Prabhupada gave us some good advice to start dividing the society

according to guna and karma.

 

 

"In the Visnu Purana it is stated that unless people are educated or situated

in the scientific social order comprised of four varnas and four asramas

society can never be considered real human society, nor can it make any

advancement toward the ultimate goal of human life. It is the duty of the

government to see that things go on in terms of varna and asrama." Srimad

Bhagavatam 4.14.18

 

These are not Janesvara dasa's words; they are Srila Prabhupada's very strong

words. Is there some argument against this?

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> VAD is a powerful, useful 'thing', if that is a more pleasing way to say it.

> We should study it very seriously and deeply with a view to apply it

> practically as our devotional culture evolves. But devotional service

> ultimately is not dependent on anything other than the desire of the

> practitioner in the sense that is what Krsna is reciprocating with in the

> final analysis.

 

 

This I have no disagreement with. But when one sincerely desires to engage in

devotional service of the Lord out of heartfelt love due to the causeless

mercy of the Lord, one will naturally engage in the institution of daiva

varnasrama-dharma as the work/medium. Sri Arjuna is the perfect example.

[Guest guest]

> Lest we forget, Srila Prabhupada left us volumes of 'pet projects'. Not

> just that our pet Prabhupada pet project is the only pet project worth

> badgering the GBC about. Sometimes it almost appears as if we want the GBC

> to pay us to work under the VAD label.

 

Could you list those projects? As far as I was aware, the Mayapur temple was

the only project he did not complete. Apart from the 50% regarding the

implementation of varnasrama

 

> So those who feel they are ready to act in some capacity, act according to

> your realization, and please hurry. But simply griping will offer the rest

> of us only so much inspiration.

 

I guess we disagree on what is griping. I see it as indignation. Srila

Prabhupada gave instructions for the leaders. Instructions and examples that

make it clear that without a varnasrama social system, a social body cannot

function properly.

 

I see our social body not functioning properly, and It makes me mad that

even though Srila Prabhupada has given us the solution, there is practicaly

no officialy recognised ISKCON body trying to implement it.

 

What you appear to suggest, is that whoever is interested in developing

varnasrama should just go and do it. Great advice. But it is ISKCON itself

that is suffering due to lack of social system. We have members and temples

all over the world, that are suffering due to a management system that

cannot provide the full scope of human needs.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

 

> If VAD is devotional service, and devotional service is VAD, than anyone

> engaged in devotional service must also be VADing it. Or conversely, if we

say

> there is no VAD in ISKCON, then there might also be no devotees there

either,

> because devotees have no business other than devotional service.

 

 

The catur-varnyam system is eternal amongst the human society. Ultimately,

everyone follows Krsna's path. But, as we all know, there are levels of human

development and advancement in the service of the Lord. It would behoove a

society of humans claiming to aspire to become Vaisnavas to institute daiva

varnasrama-dharma's higher principles of practice.

 

Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc., follow the varna and asrama system, the

four natural divisions of occupation and social life created by the Lord in

human society, but Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, etc., describe higher

levels of varnasrama-dharma practices and mentalities which are conducive for

raising the human standard of life amterially and spiritually.

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> > Well, the last time I read the Mahabharata, I recall that VAD was used to

engage society on a large scale. There are plenty of references like that.

>

>

> Prabhupada didn't translate the Mahabharata. Could you provide some

Prabhupada scriptural support for your position? Varnasrama-dharma is for

every individual human being in a group or individually.

>

>

 

Prabhupada did refer to the Mahabharata ws a bonafide Vaisnava literature.

Further, he translated with purports the Bhagavad-gita, which is often

considered the climatic chapter of the Mahabharata. Along with the Bg,

Prabhupada translated and purported the SB, which not only contains

descriptions of the life and times of the Pandavas, but numerous descriptions

of life during VAD glory days in previous yugas on earth and on higher realms

of existance.

 

So there are a plethoria of bona-fide scriptural references as to how

individuals and societies interacted under the cultural influence of VAD. To

me, these things are worthy of our study, by Prabhupada's grace.

 

 

>

> They have to be engaged according to their guna and karma - one of the four

varnas. EVERYONE fits somewhere into Krsna's catur-varnyam system. If they are

not engaged they will be idle - an idle mind is the.....

>

 

 

Seems to me student life in a devotional ashrama should concentrate of

hearing, chanting, deity worship, book and prasada distribution, etc.

Otherwise, we will simply become a trade school.

 

So carear dharma can be there, but as practicing Vaisnavas it must be done

with a healthy devotional attitude dependent on the core devotional activities

given to us by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Yes, everyone fits within the world of devotional service because everyone has

an innate relationship with Lord Krsna. That is ulitmately what we must find,

or more appropriately, rediscover.

 

Our core dharma in this age is following Lord Caitanya's example of chanting

and propagating the Hare Krsna Mahamantra. Obviously, Prabhupada felt VAD can

and should be utilize to assist us to that end. Still, quote for quote,

Prabhupada seemed to place the emphasis on Lord Caitanya's direct program of

chanting Hare Krsna -- thus we have become known as the Hare Krsna Movement.

 

When confronted with the dilemna of performing one or another auspicious

devotional activity, Prabhupada seemed to generally recommend doing both.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

>

> Could you list those projects? As far as I was aware, the Mayapur temple was

the only project he did not complete. Apart from the 50% regarding the

implementation of varnasrama

>

 

Oh, gosh, this is getting silly. Wasn't Prabhupada enlivened by the printing

and distribution of his books? How about the opening of prasadam restaurants?

He installed many temples with the promise to Krsna that his devotees would

take care of Him in His Deity form. The list goes on....

 

He started everything -- I don't believe any of his ambitions where completed

in the sense he had that much ambition on behalf of his spiritual master and

Lord Krsna.

 

This is not meant to denigrate anyones attachment to a particular set of

instructions. Yes, VAD is important.

 

 

>

> I guess we disagree on what is griping. I see it as indignation.

>

 

I see it as griping when someone proudly presents themselves as a ksatrya yet

does nothing but complain but the devotional service of others, who he

apparently feels are on his level or less.

 

 

 

>

> I see our social body not functioning properly, and It makes me mad that

even though Srila Prabhupada has given us the solution, there is practicaly no

officialy recognised ISKCON body trying to implement it.

>

 

 

I also do not see our social body as 'functioning properly'. If we embelished

that idea, shucks nothing 'functions properly' in conditional life. I

gaurentee you right now -- if Janesh and Co. lived during the days of the SB

as given to us by Srila Prabhupada, he'd still be griping, considering the

reality of what it means to deal with devotional service to Krsna in this

world as described on the very pages of Srila Prabhupadas translations and

purports.

 

Fortunately or unfortunately, life in a VAD culture was not a lifelong pass to

Disneyland -- the happiest place on earth!

 

 

> What you appear to suggest, is that whoever is interested in developing

> varnasrama should just go and do it.

>

 

Why not -- that's how things get done. A few devotees with similar ambition

can come together and make a plan and then execute it. Why is it always that

'the temple' has to do all things for all people?

 

Leadership means you are out in front doing something, and not hiding in the

back dreaming and lamenting only. That is more reminiscent of sudra life than

an inspiring VAD ksatriya.

 

G> reat advice. But it is ISKCON itself

> that is suffering due to lack of social system. We have members and temples

all over the world, that are suffering due to a management system that cannot

provide the full scope of human needs.

>

 

Temples are basically ashramas, almost like a gurukula experience where one

gets basic training as a devotee. That is our unique gift to human

civilization. VAD training can also be there, that was certainly encouraged by

Prabhupada's various quotes. But his basic program remains training the

devotees in the arts specifically pertaining to Vaisnava culture.

 

In my mind, VAD is an outgrowth of that basic program Prabhupada gave us, not

a replacement.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

>

> So youre griping too!

>

 

 

I just didn't want you guys to feel I thought I was above it all.

 

>

> Well Janesh does have a pretty comprehensive website, which must have taken

some practical work.

>

 

Yes, I am sure, but he continues to present himself as a ksatriya whose main

line of work is labelling the GBC et al as a bunch of incompetant ksatriyas.

 

> And me, I'm trying to develop something. Personaly I feel that I could be so

much more productive if I could do my project in cooperation with an ISKCON

temple.

>

 

 

Look, since when has anything been easy working with an ISKCON temple? We just

need to do what we feel is our offering of service in a manner that hopefully

assists Prabhuapda's mission and is pleasing to the devotees. Sometimes

cooperation may be there, often it is not. While Prabhupada did not wait for

cooperation, Krsna did end up sending him plenting of devotees coming forward

who were willing to help. In my book -- that is leadership.

 

 

>

> Its not like I am looking for a free handout, I want to pay for whatever I

get. It is just that we are not much of a 'people friendly' organisation. Well

maybe new people, but certainly not older 'griping' types, and disillusioned

gurukulis.

>

 

I would agree that a significant number of temples, which are primarily

inhabited by younger devotees in an ashrama situation, do not have the

experience or subsequent training to deal with the more complex issues often

experienced later on in devotional life. And there are also a number of

leaders who could be accused of being inexperienced in other similar ways.

 

Yet life goes on, and Krsna will find a way to help us as He sees fit. Not all

communities present the same strenghts and weakness's.

 

Yes, it is often not at all easy, but then, that was also the example we find

studying Prabhupada's life. Sure, griping can be there sometimes, but as for

all things, there is a balance.

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> > How about 'utility is the principle'

>

> Weak. Very weak.

>

 

 

I didn't expect it to impress, but then, it was a lame point to begin with.

 

 

> I don't read the word "tool" anywhere in this saying and besides I don't

think Srila Prabhupada ever said it. In any case, it supports implementation

of varnasrama-dharma.

>

>

 

 

Yes, it could be said Vaisnava's see everything as a 'tool', or opportunity to

serve Krsna.

 

 

 

> They loved Krsna AND they were expert, fully engaged, dedicated, hard

working, focused vaisyas at the same time. That is the point.

>

 

 

Yes, the point is that their love for Krsna wasn't dependent on their being

Vaisyas, or members of any other varna, for that matter. For instance, it is

said that Rukmini is an expansion of Candravali, while Satyabhama is an

expansion of Radharani. So love is always there.

 

 

> Because they, the living

> entities were loving Krsna, their bodies manifested the symptoms through the

daiva varnasrama-dharma system - the most elevated divine system of human

civilization.

>

 

To the contrary, many of the activities of Krsna's intimate associates, such

as the gopis, broke the normal standard of behaviour considered as idea. In

other word, they didn't enter the rasa dance, for instance, as part of their

vaisya dharma.

 

 

>

> "The institution which gives such training is called varnasrama-dharma, or

the system of sanatana-dharma, the best procedure for making the human life

perfect." S.B. 2.1.15.

>

 

 

True, true. Yet Prabhupada also gives examples of devotees well outside of VAD

who were considered elevated souls -- Haridas Thakur immediately comes to

mind. There are many many quotes describing the glories of all aspects of

Vedic civilization.

 

Devotional service appears to either be independent of VAD, or that we already

have VAD now and we are not recognizing it, as there appears to me many

devotees already getting much out of KC. So the future is certainly ahead of

us with which to further develop along those lines.

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> Yes, but varnasrama-dharma creates the MOST conducive atmosphere to

cultivate love of God.

>

 

Particularly on a large social scale, I definitely agree. But putting one's

hand in a bead bag can also be a potent act of devotion, or VAD dharma,

however one wishes to view it.

 

> We do not have this atmosphere in ISKCON and thus advancement is

> extremely troublesome and slow and many lose patience or faith and fall

away. This is not good.

>

 

 

There are numerous reasons why people loose devotional momentum. Using VAD and

an intellecutal sound bite to explain it all is to me not understanding VAD.

 

 

>

> These are not Janesvara dasa's words; they are Srila Prabhupada's very

strong words. Is there some argument against this?

>

 

 

No one wishes to rufute this. Still, Prabhupada said similar things about

being religious, or simply chanting Hare Krsna and following the basic regs.

 

So yet, establish VAD via a web page or whatever other which way you can. The

essence of everything remains our core devotional activities.

 

ys,

 

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> This I have no disagreement with. But when one sincerely desires to engage

in devotional service of the Lord out of heartfelt love due to the causeless

mercy of the Lord, one will naturally engage in the institution of daiva

varnasrama-dharma as the work/medium. Sri Arjuna is the perfect example.

>

 

 

And in that sense, I continue to say that VAD is not something that can be

leglislated simply as an excersize in managerial authority. Thus, I am

reluctant to obsess on the GBC, or anyone else, as the sole ingredient missing

from our VAD recipe.

 

Further pursuing the recipe analogy, sure a cake tastes like hell without a

sweetener, but there is alot more to baking a cake then aquiring a 5lb bag of

refined white sugar.

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc., follow the varna and asrama system, the

four natural divisions of occupation and social life created by the Lord in

human society, but Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, etc., describe higher

levels of varnasrama-dharma practices and mentalities which are conducive for

raising the human standard of life amterially and spiritually.

>

 

 

Yes, these principles are eternal and ever present. As the devotees gain more

realization and practical experience, they will ever become more expert in

focusing these natural human energies in a manner that is ever more pleasing

to Krsna.

 

Key to all this, in my mind, is a tangeable brahminical sub-culture. A dynamic

brahminical culture is much more than a bunch of self-satisfied intellects all

to enthusiastic to tell others what they think they should be doing, and often

for them.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

> Seems to me student life in a devotional ashrama should concentrate of

> hearing, chanting, deity worship, book and prasada distribution, etc.

> Otherwise, we will simply become a trade school.

 

Pancaratna Prabhu,has an interesting perspective on this. If you look at it,

most people in the 'Bramachary' ashram, end up getting married. Actualy

Bramacharya is a very very high standard. His idea (this might not be

entirely accurate but gives the gist) was that we rename the bramachary

ashram as 'Batchelor' ashram. We provide Krsna conscious training along with

some varnasrama guidance and monitoring.

 

Those that lean towards practical areas (I was such a person) can be engaged

in practical work. The wonderful thing about Krsna Consciousness is that it

can manifest everywhere. Learning a trade, with a Krsna conscious

perspective, could be a very positive way of understanding how our lives

should be directed towards the lord. Srila Prabhupada did not dicate what

service we do for the Lord, but he did want us to become expert in whatever

we do. But how can one be realy expert if he does not do his work in a

devotional manner? Krsna consciousness is perfect consciousness, work done

in that consciousness is also perfect.

 

After 5 years in such an ashrama it will become much clearer who is a real

bramachary, and who will probabaly later become married. The advantage being

the the marriage prospect will have some practical training under his belt.

He will do his work with an understanding of how it fits in the greater

scheme of things. he will be expert.

 

All sorts of training can be provided. For instance ksatrias can learn all

about their arts, by practical means and by studying the example of

Dronacarya.

>

> So carear dharma can be there, but as practicing Vaisnavas it must be done

> with a healthy devotional attitude dependent on the core devotional

> activities given to us by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Exactly. We just have to add practical training to the spiritual training.

If we were not so dependant on the outside world to provide the things we

need, we would be forced to provide practical training. It cannot be denied

to one who chooses to examine Srila Prabhupadas total teaching that he

wanted us to be independant from the outside world, and offer a positive

alternative.

 

> When confronted with the dilemna of performing one or another auspicious

> devotional activity, Prabhupada seemed to generally recommend doing both.

 

Yes but where is the practical training in ISKCON? Basicaly what I described

above is a varnasrama college.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

On 31 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

> > Seems to me student life in a devotional ashrama should concentrate of

hearing, chanting, deity worship, book and prasada distribution, etc.

> > Otherwise, we will simply become a trade school.

>

> Pancaratna Prabhu,has an interesting perspective on this. If you look at it,

most people in the 'Bramachary' ashram, end up getting married. Actualy

Bramacharya is a very very high standard. His idea (this might not be entirely

accurate but gives the gist) was that we rename the bramachary ashram as

'Batchelor' ashram. We provide Krsna conscious training along with some

varnasrama guidance and monitoring.

>

 

 

While I agree with this point in principle, the idea of changing the name to

'bachelor' ashrama surely was made in jest.

 

It was also the norm during VAD's most successful days that most brahmancaris

would enter the grhasta ashrama, and thus some provisions are made so they can

honestly take care of the various grhasta responsibilities.

 

Still, in my mind, the beauty of the brahmancari training is how to lay a

foundation of Krsna consciousness and just plain spirituality that can be

built upon over a lifetime. Not that KC is experienced for a few years in the

ashrama, and then 'bloop!'

 

 

>

> Exactly. We just have to add practical training to the spiritual training.

>

 

 

My only concern is that, quite frankly, we have fairly nominal experience as a

society with even basic spiritual issues being we are such a young

organization. If forced to make a choice, better to focus on the straight

devotional side. But part of that devotional side is training on how to engage

one's life long energy in Krsna's service.

 

In other words, I am a little cautious with too much attention to so-called

practical training, when there are so many organizations offering 'practical'

knowledge. Our specific contribution is how to engage such 'practical'

knowledge in Krsna's service. Real dharma, in my mind, is how to engage

everything in a manner that Krsna finds pleasing -- that is the unique art

taught by the Vaisnavas.

 

>

> Yes but where is the practical training in ISKCON? Basicaly what I described

above is a varnasrama college.

>

 

 

I have no arguments against establishing VAD colleges that offer practical

training in a devotional enviroment. But I just don't see, at this stage of

our social evolution, the necessary components to build such a college

successfully -- or at least not according to some of the expectations you so

often hear expressed. Obviously we at least need to talk about these things

with the intention of moving in that direction.

 

For instance, Harvard University didn't start with a 10 billion dollar

endowment, or whatever vast amount of resources they are said to have at their

disposal. Most likely for it's first few generations they were nothing more

than a small 2-bit school in some far flung outpost of the British Empire.

 

With this in mind, it appears quite possible to me that even our currently

small humble attempts at VAD can prove to develop into something powerful over

time.

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 30 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> > > Well, the last time I read the Mahabharata, I recall that VAD was used

to

> engage society on a large scale. There are plenty of references like that.

 

> > Prabhupada didn't translate the Mahabharata. Could you provide some

> Prabhupada scriptural support for your position? Varnasrama-dharma is for

> every individual human being in a group or individually.

> >

 

 

> Prabhupada did refer to the Mahabharata ws a bonafide Vaisnava literature.

> Further, he translated with purports the Bhagavad-gita, which is often

> considered the climatic chapter of the Mahabharata. Along with the Bg,

> Prabhupada translated and purported the SB, which not only contains

> descriptions of the life and times of the Pandavas, but numerous

descriptions

> of life during VAD glory days in previous yugas on earth and on higher

realms

> of existance.

 

> So there are a plethoria of bona-fide scriptural references as to how

> individuals and societies interacted under the cultural influence of VAD. To

> me, these things are worthy of our study, by Prabhupada's grace.

 

 

 

No question. I love Mahabharata and read it everynight before going to bed. I

have read it several times along with Ramayana and cherish them deeply.

They're excellent examples of devotees practicing varnasrama-dharma everyday

and minute of their lives. If ISKCON could only exemplify these lifestyles it

would great.

 

 

But you still have not referenced any quotes from anywhere to support your

position. I love reading scripture and quotes therefrom, I am sure anything

you provide will be enlightening and helpful in understanding Srila

Prabhupada's desire to fulfill the other half of his mission - varnasrama.

 

..

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[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

 

> Seems to me student life in a devotional ashrama should concentrate of

> hearing, chanting, deity worship, book and prasada distribution, etc.

> Otherwise, we will simply become a trade school.

 

 

A trade school we SHOULD be! That is what Prabhupada wanted. Brahmana trade

school, ksatriya trade school, vaisya trade school and sudra trade school.

 

You seem to want to continue the mismanagement paradigm of ISKCON which tries

to jamb square heads into round holes and thus injure peoples spiritual lives

and material lives.

 

Student life in an asrama means according to the psycho-physical nature of the

student to begin with. You cannot and should not train a sudra to be a

brahmana, nor a ksatriya to be a brahman.

 

The guru must know the nature of the student and the curriculum, spiritual and

material, is based upon their varna.

 

 

 

 

> So carear dharma can be there, but as practicing Vaisnavas it must be done

> with a healthy devotional attitude dependent on the core devotional

activities

> given to us by Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

The "core" devotional activities are different for each varna.

 

 

 

 

> Our core dharma in this age is following Lord Caitanya's example of chanting

> and propagating the Hare Krsna Mahamantra. Obviously, Prabhupada felt VAD

can

> and should be utilize to assist us to that end. Still, quote for quote,

> Prabhupada seemed to place the emphasis on Lord Caitanya's direct program of

> chanting Hare Krsna

 

 

No. Prabhupad's program is varna first, asrama later.

 

 

The following are some nice quotes regarding varnasrama from Srila Prabhupada

to your guru.

 

"Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was

not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: Yes. ...Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual

platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: NO! OUR POSITION IS DIFFERENT (My emphasis). We are trying to

implement Krsna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu

personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we

are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position

of the...

That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the

whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected

meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He

was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we

shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come

to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya

Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material

world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the

situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual

plane, which is not required."

 

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced

them to chant.

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the

varnasrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people

will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds.

(And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the

varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

 

 

"Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship,

brahmana...

Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this?

Brahmanas are also available, sudras are also available. Why sudra should be

artificially become a brahmana?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> When confronted with the dilemna of performing one or another auspicious

> devotional activity, Prabhupada seemed to generally recommend doing both.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> .

>

[Guest guest]

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

>

> But you still have not referenced any quotes from anywhere to support your

position. I love reading scripture and quotes therefrom, I am sure anything

you provide will be enlightening and helpful in understanding Srila

Prabhupada's desire to fulfill the other half of his mission - varnasrama.

>

 

 

Other than Prabhupada provided material for us to study as to how VAD cultures

worked, what references are we refering too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 31 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

>

>

> > Seems to me student life in a devotional ashrama should concentrate of

hearing, chanting, deity worship, book and prasada distribution, etc.

> > Otherwise, we will simply become a trade school.

>

>

> A trade school we SHOULD be! That is what Prabhupada wanted. Brahmana trade

school, ksatriya trade school, vaisya trade school and sudra trade school.

>

 

 

Our eternal trade is loving devotional service to Krsna. Methods for practical

execution of our trade according to time and place can also be there.

 

 

> You seem to want to continue the mismanagement paradigm of ISKCON which

tries to jamb square heads into round holes and thus injure peoples spiritual

lives and material lives.

>

 

It would seem that devotees feel devotional service is a natural expression of

the soul. I agree, though, we can't be expected to act like infatuated 20

years olds when we get in our 30s, 40s, and 50s, etc.

 

 

> Student life in an asrama means according to the psycho-physical nature of

the student to begin with. You cannot and should not train a sudra to be a

brahmana, nor a ksatriya to be a brahman.

>

 

Basic devotional principles are universal to all human beings. It is a

spiritual activity. Let men rise according to their talents and character, I

say. To me, that is one practical way to look at VAD.

 

 

> The guru must know the nature of the student and the curriculum, spiritual

and material, is based upon their varna.

>

 

 

Depends on which guru you are talking about. Not all gurus are preoccupied

with occupational duties. Different devotees specialize in different

departments.

 

For instance, you might say Kripa and Drona were more Varna type gurus. On the

other hand, Narada Muni didn't train Druva Maharaja how to be an expert

ksatriya.

 

 

>

>

> The "core" devotional activities are different for each varna.

>

>

 

I disagree, beginning with the chanting of the Maha-mantra. Also, Prabhupada

said following basic regulative principles are a sympton of human

consciousness, something like that.

 

So we may or may not be doing these things with full success, but these

principles are universal to all human beings, or at least all followers of

Srila Prabhupada.

 

Similarly, all nine processses of devotional service are available to all.

 

>

>

> No. Prabhupad's program is varna first, asrama later.

>

 

Exactly which one of his disciples did he train in his occupational duties

before he introduced them to chanting Hare Krsna? I recall he requested his

disciples at the time of initiation to chant 16 rounds and follow four regs.

He also mentioned the varna before ashrama quote, but within the context of

the rest of his practical preaching.

 

> Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people

will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds.

(And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

> Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

> Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time

the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

>

 

 

Yes, finding ourselves peacefully situated will always be considered an asset

for prosecuting KC, but without the chanting, so much peacefullness is only a

temporary adjustment.

 

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> As the devotees gain more

> realization and practical experience, they will ever become more expert in

> focusing these natural human energies in a manner that is ever more pleasing

> to Krsna.

 

 

I just quoted Prabhupada saying:

 

"In the Visnu Purana it is stated that unless people are educated or situated

in the scientific social order comprised of four varnas and four asramas

society can never be considered real human society, nor can it make any

advancement toward the ultimate goal of human life. It is the duty of the

government to see that things go on in terms of varna and asrama." Srimad

Bhagavatam 4.14.18

 

 

Are you saying Srila Prabhupada was wrong? Are you saying you have a new

social system where humans can make advancement toward the ultimate goal of

life?

 

Please enlighten us with your wisdom.

 

You are yet to provide a single reference from scripture and thus your

opinions become very weak and not of very much benefit to others.

 

To me, practical engagement in varnasrama-dharma includes providing real

knowledge from scripture regarding the subject - not conjecture from a

neophyte.

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Key to all this, in my mind, is a tangeable brahminical sub-culture. A

dynamic

> brahminical culture is much more than a bunch of self-satisfied intellects

all

> to enthusiastic to tell others what they think they should be doing, and

often

> for them.

 

 

Again, useless and incorrect conjecture and speculation without reference from

scripture.

 

As our good daiva vaisya, Madhava Gosh would be quick to provide the

scriptural reference to defeat your speculation:

 

"Without cow protection there can be no brahminical culture." How are you

going to have cow protection without varnasrama-dharma? Certainly ISKCON is a

very good example of how cows CANNOT be protected without varnasrama-dharma.

Nor child protection, nor women protection.

 

Yet you rely upon your sentiment to say, "We can just all chant Hare Krsna

like Haridasa Thakur and all these problems will go away like magic! We are

above varnasrama-dharma. We don't "really" need it."

 

Nonsense. Judge the ISKCON tree by its fruits.

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

 

 

> The

> essence of everything remains our core devotional activities.

 

 

Sentimental gibberish and still no scriptural reference.

 

Core devotional activities must be done in accordance with one's guna and

karma.

 

Are you saying Arjuna SHOULD have left the battlefield and pursued his

"brahminical" desires of living in the forest and begging? He had every

"brahminical" argument placed before Krsna regarding violence and killing

relatives, desire for fame and empire, etc.

 

Krsna's opinion was very different from yours.

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > They loved Krsna AND they were expert, fully engaged, dedicated, hard

> working, focused vaisyas at the same time. That is the point.

 

 

 

> Yes, the point is that their love for Krsna wasn't dependent on their being

> Vaisyas, or members of any other varna, for that matter. For instance, it is

> said that Rukmini is an expansion of Candravali, while Satyabhama is an

> expansion of Radharani. So love is always there.

 

 

Yes. But they always maintained there position as vaisyas in respect for the

varnasrama-dharma institution.

 

To you varnasrama-dharma is is an "OKthing" or "tool" but we, who are more

advanced than that, don't have to really accept it.

 

Grow up, quote scripture to try to support yourself.

 

"Verse: Maharaja Priyavrata ruled the universe for eleven arbudas of years

(1.1 billion years). Whenever he was determined to fix his arrows upon his

bowstring with his two powerful arms, all opponents of the regulative

principles of religious life would flee from his presence in fear of the

unparalleled prowess he displayed in ruling the universe. Purport: In this

verse, the word dharma-pratipaksa ("opponents of religious principles") refers

not to a particular faith, but to varnasrama-dharma, the division of society,

socially and spiritually, into four varnas (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and

sudra) and four asramas (brahmacarya, grihasta, vanaprastha and sannyasa). To

maintain proper social order and help the citizens gradually progress toward

the goal of life - namely spiritual understanding - the principles of

varnasrama-dharma must be accepted. From his verse, Maharaja Priyavrata

appears to have been so strict in maintaining this institution of

varnasrama-dharma that anyone neglecting it would immediately flee from his

presence as soon as the King warned him by fighting or administering light

punishment. Indeed, Maharaja Priyavrata would not have to fight, for simply

because of his strong determination, they dared not disobey the rules and

regulations of varnasrama-dharma. It is said that unless human society is

regulated by varnasrama-dharma, it is no better than a bestial society of cats

and dogs. Maharaja Priyavrata, therefore, strictly maintained

varnasrama-dharma by his extraordinary, unparalleled prowess. SB 5.1.29

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

 

> True, true. Yet Prabhupada also gives examples of devotees well outside of

VAD

> who were considered elevated souls -- Haridas Thakur immediately comes to

> mind.

 

 

 

Yes. Haridasa was very elevated soul. We are not. Listen to what Srila

Prabhupada told your spiritual master:

 

 

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the

systems of varnasrama and like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The...

People are not so advanced. IF YOU IMITATE HARIDASA THAKURA TO CHANT, IT IS

NOT POSSIBLE.(My emphasis)

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. ...Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if

they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just

like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three

dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld).

He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was

attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply

show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all

over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas.

 

 

Is there something not getting through to you, Prabhu?

[Guest guest]

On 30 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> Devotional service appears to either be independent of VAD, or that we

already

> have VAD now and we are not recognizing it, as there appears to me many

> devotees already getting much out of KC.

 

 

Do you have ANY scriptural references to support anything you say?

 

 

I prefer guru, sadhu and sastra:

 

 

daiva-varnasrama' mission by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura to Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati:

"Therefore they attack the pure Vaishnavas, saying, 'They have taken birth in

low-class families because of their sins.' Thus they commit offenses. The

solution to the problem is to establish the order of daiva-varnasrama-dharma -

something you have started doing; you should know that to be the real service

to the Vaishnavas."

 

 

If its the REAL service to the Vaisnavas according to Bhaktivinode why isn't

good enough for ISKCON?

[Guest guest]

On 31 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > The guru must know the nature of the student and the curriculum, spiritual

> and material, is based upon their varna.

 

 

 

> Depends on which guru you are talking about. Not all gurus are preoccupied

> with occupational duties. Different devotees specialize in different

> departments.

 

> For instance, you might say Kripa and Drona were more Varna type gurus. On

the

> other hand, Narada Muni didn't train Druva Maharaja how to be an expert

> ksatriya.

 

 

Yes he did. And even if he didn't, who did? Did Dhruva become a brahmana?

[Guest guest]

On 31 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> Yes, finding ourselves peacefully situated will always be considered an

asset

> for prosecuting KC, but without the chanting, so much peacefullness is only

a

> temporary adjustment.

 

 

 

More sentimental dribble. Any scriptural references yet, Prabhu?

 

You always seem to want to interpret for our "understanding" Srila

Prabhupada's statements regarding varnasrama as though they were "just nice

things for peaceful situating" or some garbage like that. Sri Arjuna or

Priyavrata Maharaja would disgree I think.