URGENT: GBC must implement varnasrama-dharma

[Guest guest]

On 3 Aug 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

> You will simply produce the opposite effect by this kind of

> "preaching".

 

 

Only in those who are not sincerely interested in establishing Srila

Prabhupada's orders regarding varnasrama and more interested in "proving" that

someone like Janesvara dasa just can't be right no matter what he says because

he is too forceful for us wishy-washy guys. Meanwhile cows and women and

innocent followers of Srila Prabhupada, who need and want varnasrama in their

lives immediately, continue to suffer. This creates the worst effect of all.

Thus thousands have fled the chaos. To stay on a burning ship is insanity,

especially when the captains have thrown all the fire extinguishers overboard.

 

 

 

 

> Think wether Srila Prabhupada would instruct to leave his ISCKON

> under the excuse that the bases of varnasrama-dharma have not been

> established yet by the GBC.

 

 

 

I believe Srila Prabhupada left the Gaudiya Matha for the same reasons. Surely

there was talk amongst the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to "stay on

board" even amidst the chaos.

 

I am glad Srila Prabhupada left!

 

Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but they

have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement. You would think

the GBC and others would reflect on the grossly obvious condition of their

management.

 

I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former members of

the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and supporting

THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for sustenance. And yet

the GBC and others will not even consider submissively inviting these mahatmas

to help manage the society.

[Guest guest]

On 3 Aug 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

> You will simply produce the opposite effect by this kind of

> "preaching".

 

 

Only in those who are not sincerely interested in establishing Srila

Prabhupada's orders regarding varnasrama and more interested in "proving" that

someone like Janesvara dasa just can't be right no matter what he says because

he is too forceful for us wishy-washy guys. Meanwhile cows and women and

innocent followers of Srila Prabhupada, who need and want varnasrama in their

lives immediately, continue to suffer. This creates the worst effect of all.

Thus thousands have fled the chaos. To stay on a burning ship is insanity,

especially when the captains have thrown all the fire extinguishers overboard.

 

 

 

 

> Think wether Srila Prabhupada would instruct to leave his ISCKON

> under the excuse that the bases of varnasrama-dharma have not been

> established yet by the GBC.

 

 

 

I believe Srila Prabhupada left the Gaudiya Matha for the same reasons. Surely

there was talk amongst the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to "stay on

board" even amidst the chaos.

 

I am glad Srila Prabhupada left!

 

Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but they

have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement. You would think

the GBC and others would reflect on the grossly obvious condition of their

management.

 

I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former members of

the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and supporting

THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for sustenance. And yet

the GBC and others will not even consider submissively inviting these mahatmas

to help manage the society.

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 02 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

> > Prabhupada is our only source of knowing about the value of chanting the

> Holy Names. But he has given direction on how we must approach this very

high

> facility in his scripture:

 

 

 

> I guess Prabhupada felt the introduction of chanting Hare Krsna was a failed

> experiment

 

 

 

The chanting will go on because it cleanses the heart. It is a perfect

companion to fallen souls trying to make advancement through the varnasrama

system. They both must work together for us fallen souls to make advancement

and after we are advanced we will still exemplify varnasrama for others

following. I love chanting my rounds everyday and have done so for years and

years, but I would find it extremely difficult to maintain my KC without

practical engagement in my varna at the same time and constantly.

 

 

 

> along the way to his realization that the GBC are a bunch of bums

> for not recreating Satya-yuga within our lifetimes.

 

 

This is bogus and a weak argument. You also reveal your true opinion of

varnasrama - that it is a fantasy of anyone interested in it because it can

only be done in Satya-yuga by Satya/qualified people.

 

Prabhupada said varnasrama can be done NOW, in Kali yuga, and it is one of the

main purposes of his movement.

 

Prabhupada "fired" the entire GBC a couple of times in the past and he would

probably do the same now after their mismanagement and pushing away of all of

his disciples.

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 02 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

> > Prabhupada is our only source of knowing about the value of chanting the

> Holy Names. But he has given direction on how we must approach this very

high

> facility in his scripture:

 

 

 

> I guess Prabhupada felt the introduction of chanting Hare Krsna was a failed

> experiment

 

 

 

The chanting will go on because it cleanses the heart. It is a perfect

companion to fallen souls trying to make advancement through the varnasrama

system. They both must work together for us fallen souls to make advancement

and after we are advanced we will still exemplify varnasrama for others

following. I love chanting my rounds everyday and have done so for years and

years, but I would find it extremely difficult to maintain my KC without

practical engagement in my varna at the same time and constantly.

 

 

 

> along the way to his realization that the GBC are a bunch of bums

> for not recreating Satya-yuga within our lifetimes.

 

 

This is bogus and a weak argument. You also reveal your true opinion of

varnasrama - that it is a fantasy of anyone interested in it because it can

only be done in Satya-yuga by Satya/qualified people.

 

Prabhupada said varnasrama can be done NOW, in Kali yuga, and it is one of the

main purposes of his movement.

 

Prabhupada "fired" the entire GBC a couple of times in the past and he would

probably do the same now after their mismanagement and pushing away of all of

his disciples.

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 02 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> Srila Prabhupada said at length and in detail how

> to divide the society into four varnas and he ordered that the GBC start

> varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the movement.

 

 

> > HAS THIS BEEN DONE IN THE LAST 25 YEARS? Please answer this.

 

 

 

> Jai Chairman Mao. I agree, there is absolutely no VAD going on, though

> Prabhupada said they are eternal principles. Apparently these eternal

> principles do not apply to the devotees, because you seem to feel there is

no

> VAD going on in ISKCON.

 

 

 

 

Getting weak in your debate?

 

 

I didn't say in the above text, nor anywhere else, that there was no

varnasrama going on anywhere including ISKCON.

 

READ what I said: Is there varnasrama colleges in EVERY center? Have the

"leaders" divided the society of devotees into the four varnas methodically as

Srila Prabhupada ordered?

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 02 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> Srila Prabhupada said at length and in detail how

> to divide the society into four varnas and he ordered that the GBC start

> varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the movement.

 

 

> > HAS THIS BEEN DONE IN THE LAST 25 YEARS? Please answer this.

 

 

 

> Jai Chairman Mao. I agree, there is absolutely no VAD going on, though

> Prabhupada said they are eternal principles. Apparently these eternal

> principles do not apply to the devotees, because you seem to feel there is

no

> VAD going on in ISKCON.

 

 

 

 

Getting weak in your debate?

 

 

I didn't say in the above text, nor anywhere else, that there was no

varnasrama going on anywhere including ISKCON.

 

READ what I said: Is there varnasrama colleges in EVERY center? Have the

"leaders" divided the society of devotees into the four varnas methodically as

Srila Prabhupada ordered?

[Guest guest]

>

> > Think wether Srila Prabhupada would instruct to leave his ISCKON under

> > the excuse that the bases of varnasrama-dharma have not been established

> > yet by the GBC.

>

>

>

> I believe Srila Prabhupada left the Gaudiya Matha for the same reasons.

> Surely there was talk amongst the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to

> "stay on board" even amidst the chaos.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's mission was to bring KC to the West, as he got

that order from his Guru Maharaja. And for that purpose he came and

established this movement, ISCKON. He quickly realized that he

couldn't relay on his godbrother' help. But he *never* attempted

to reform Gaudiya Math and its leadership. He also did not simply sit

down grudging, complaining and criticizing, counting the years and

days of his godbrothers' failure to establish varnasrama dharma in the

world (or their not fulfilling whatever other instructions of his

Guru Maharaja).

 

You belive your leaving Srila Prabhupada's ISCKON, and Srila

Prabhupada's leaving India ("Gaudiya Math") is of the same quality!

Same motivation!

(I am still shaking my head from left to right and from right to

left, upon seeing Janesvara placing the equality sign in between

his reasons and Srila Prabhupada's reasons. Actually, one shouldn't

let oneself become surprised anymore with anything.)

 

 

>

> I am glad Srila Prabhupada left!

 

You can play your jubilation as much as you like. As I said, you

didn't have to explain to all of us whether you belive that your

leaving Srila Prabhupada's ISCKON would be in accordance with

following Srila Prabhupada's instructions and desires to do so.

 

I personally do not mind that someone is leaving. Can understand

that. But then, I would expect from those who declare to have left

ISCKON, to do their thing. Not ISCKON's thing. That's ridiculous.

Don't be spitting back constantly, against the wind.

 

 

 

>

> Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but

> they have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement. You would

> think the GBC and others would reflect on the grossly obvious condition of

> their management.

 

There can be very different reasons for leaving ISCKON that both

those who have left and the authorities might be hold responsible

for (for Prabhupada's both these "classes" are his beloved disciples).

But this is not really the issue at the moment. My point is that

once you have left ISCKON (wether you are still in KC movement or

not is your private thing), you got no chance to change anything

there really. You got no means to help improving the "chaos" on

the decks of the ship that you boarded off long time ago (am I

making such a complicated point?). All you can do is to go shooting

those who are still there in the charge. Or to try to do something

nice there where you are, without coming to ISCKON only to blast

those who stayed in charge there.

 

 

You are a ksatriya, in your words. But then what you do is simply

to run away from the battle saving your own ... . And then,

sitting there up, on the top of your hill, singing the song all

the time:

"Look, look nobody is protecting those women and children in ISCKON..

look, look how bogus those managers are down there. Look, look how

great and wise here up, on my hill, I am...".

Well, one thing is for sure here -- none in ISCKON got any use of

such a "ksatriya" or "manager" anyway.

 

 

 

>

> I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former

> members of the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and

> supporting THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for

> sustenance. And yet the GBC and others will not even consider submissively

> inviting these mahatmas to help manage the society.

 

Then get together yourself with the rest of those mahatmas and

do the thing. Obviously you don't expect from the GBC to do REAL

thing. So why waste your breath with blasting them all the time? You

left the ship, didn't you? It's a chaos there, right? Not good place

for you. You are wise, wiser than those who stayed. But, you still

seam to be depending on ISCKON and the GBC -- how would you feel

yourself successful and great otherwise, if you would stop pointing the

finger on ISCKON management/ksatriyas for their being bogus, cheaters,

not caring for Prabhupada's instructions, unqualified, selfish... You

seam to got nothing else on the other side, to make yourself feel

good, self-sufficiently.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

>

> > Think wether Srila Prabhupada would instruct to leave his ISCKON under

> > the excuse that the bases of varnasrama-dharma have not been established

> > yet by the GBC.

>

>

>

> I believe Srila Prabhupada left the Gaudiya Matha for the same reasons.

> Surely there was talk amongst the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to

> "stay on board" even amidst the chaos.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's mission was to bring KC to the West, as he got

that order from his Guru Maharaja. And for that purpose he came and

established this movement, ISCKON. He quickly realized that he

couldn't relay on his godbrother' help. But he *never* attempted

to reform Gaudiya Math and its leadership. He also did not simply sit

down grudging, complaining and criticizing, counting the years and

days of his godbrothers' failure to establish varnasrama dharma in the

world (or their not fulfilling whatever other instructions of his

Guru Maharaja).

 

You belive your leaving Srila Prabhupada's ISCKON, and Srila

Prabhupada's leaving India ("Gaudiya Math") is of the same quality!

Same motivation!

(I am still shaking my head from left to right and from right to

left, upon seeing Janesvara placing the equality sign in between

his reasons and Srila Prabhupada's reasons. Actually, one shouldn't

let oneself become surprised anymore with anything.)

 

 

>

> I am glad Srila Prabhupada left!

 

You can play your jubilation as much as you like. As I said, you

didn't have to explain to all of us whether you belive that your

leaving Srila Prabhupada's ISCKON would be in accordance with

following Srila Prabhupada's instructions and desires to do so.

 

I personally do not mind that someone is leaving. Can understand

that. But then, I would expect from those who declare to have left

ISCKON, to do their thing. Not ISCKON's thing. That's ridiculous.

Don't be spitting back constantly, against the wind.

 

 

 

>

> Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but

> they have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement. You would

> think the GBC and others would reflect on the grossly obvious condition of

> their management.

 

There can be very different reasons for leaving ISCKON that both

those who have left and the authorities might be hold responsible

for (for Prabhupada's both these "classes" are his beloved disciples).

But this is not really the issue at the moment. My point is that

once you have left ISCKON (wether you are still in KC movement or

not is your private thing), you got no chance to change anything

there really. You got no means to help improving the "chaos" on

the decks of the ship that you boarded off long time ago (am I

making such a complicated point?). All you can do is to go shooting

those who are still there in the charge. Or to try to do something

nice there where you are, without coming to ISCKON only to blast

those who stayed in charge there.

 

 

You are a ksatriya, in your words. But then what you do is simply

to run away from the battle saving your own ... . And then,

sitting there up, on the top of your hill, singing the song all

the time:

"Look, look nobody is protecting those women and children in ISCKON..

look, look how bogus those managers are down there. Look, look how

great and wise here up, on my hill, I am...".

Well, one thing is for sure here -- none in ISCKON got any use of

such a "ksatriya" or "manager" anyway.

 

 

 

>

> I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former

> members of the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and

> supporting THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for

> sustenance. And yet the GBC and others will not even consider submissively

> inviting these mahatmas to help manage the society.

 

Then get together yourself with the rest of those mahatmas and

do the thing. Obviously you don't expect from the GBC to do REAL

thing. So why waste your breath with blasting them all the time? You

left the ship, didn't you? It's a chaos there, right? Not good place

for you. You are wise, wiser than those who stayed. But, you still

seam to be depending on ISCKON and the GBC -- how would you feel

yourself successful and great otherwise, if you would stop pointing the

finger on ISCKON management/ksatriyas for their being bogus, cheaters,

not caring for Prabhupada's instructions, unqualified, selfish... You

seam to got nothing else on the other side, to make yourself feel

good, self-sufficiently.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

On 3.08.99 Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> I didn't say in the above text, nor anywhere else, that there was no

> varnasrama going on anywhere including ISKCON.

>

> READ what I said: Is there varnasrama colleges in EVERY center? Have the

> "leaders" divided the society of devotees into the four varnas

> methodically as Srila Prabhupada ordered?

 

But what should be thought in such varnasrama colleges in every center? Is

there anyone in our movement expert to teach some practical varna education

at this moment?

What do you understand by teaching a varna in the VAD college in every

center, there are hundreds of diferent ocupations one can learn at the karmi

schools, which can be atributed to a particular varna? Should one try to

teach all of this with a devotional atitude, that would be absurd I think?

Why not go to a school and learn a job or study at the university, they are

much moore expert at this, at the present moment, I think?

On what basis should our leaders divide the society of devotees into the

four varnas? Where they traind enogh by Srila Prabhupada or by some other

experts so that they can do it at the present moment, or in the last 25

years, to take your number?

Would it not be better at the present moment in our society to cooperate

with the schools and coleges who already exist in regard to job education

for a particular varna and teach in our colleges our specific vedic

understanding on top of this, to our devotees?

What would be the practical results or benefits of doing this?

Is varnasrama a matter of dividing people and designate them acordingly or

first and foremost understanding the principles behind it?

 

Please dear Janesvara prabhu maybe you can help me to understand your way of

thinking in this matter.

 

ys

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> > You will simply produce the opposite effect by this kind of

> > "preaching".

>

> Only in those who are not sincerely interested in establishing Srila

> Prabhupada's orders regarding varnasrama

 

But how should they establish anything like varnasrama when they themselves

don,t understand what Prabhupada meant by this, like we could see in

Ravindra Svarupa prabhus article? Or no common consensus or understanding...

Should one not first try to gain some common understanding in regard what

varnasrama dharma actualy means, also in regard to that wath we call

devotional service for Krsna?

 

For example Arjuna he was doing devotional service by fighting the battle of

Kuruksetra for Krsna, using his skill and expertise as a ksatriya wariour

which he learned at the school of Dronacarya, I guess in the present days he

would have went to some military academy to learn the art of fighting,

military strategy and warfare, or would he have come to some Iskcon temple

in order to learn this art? And again only Arjuna and Krsna knew that wath

he was doing was devotional service and not sense gratification. Duryodhana

was folowing also his ksatriya varna, but was it devotional service?

So when is following ones varna inclinations in varnasrama, devotional

service and when is it sense gratification ?

And is following ones varna duties only in the Isckon society devotional

service or can this be done also in the greater society we also belong?

 

> and more interested in "proving"

> that someone like Janesvara dasa just can't be right no matter what he

> says because he is too forceful for us wishy-washy guys. Meanwhile cows

> and women and innocent followers of Srila Prabhupada, who need and want

> varnasrama in their lives immediately, continue to suffer.

 

What does " need and want varnasrama in their lives immediately" means

actually to you, or should it mean to us, practicaly speaking?

How does Iskcon and its leadership stopp or hinder us from beying active in

implementing varnasrama in our lifes?

 

>This creates the worst effect of all. Thus thousands have fled the chaos.

>To stay on a burning ship is insanity, especially when the captains have

>thrown all the fire extinguishers overboard.

 

Now somehow I cannot follow you anymoore, what do you mean by all this?

 

 

> > Think wether Srila Prabhupada would instruct to leave his ISCKON under

> > the excuse that the bases of varnasrama-dharma have not been established

> > yet by the GBC.

>

 

> I believe Srila Prabhupada left the Gaudiya Matha for the same reasons.

> Surely there was talk amongst the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to

> "stay on board" even amidst the chaos.

>

> I am glad Srila Prabhupada left!

>

> Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but

> they have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement.

 

What would have been different if Isckon would have followed a varnasrama

dharma structure wathever that would mean?

Or in other words followed the orders of Prabhupada in this regard.

 

>You would think the GBC and others would reflect on the grossly obvious

>condition of their management.

 

 

> I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former

> members of the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and

> supporting THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for

> sustenance. And yet the GBC and others will not even consider submissively

> inviting these mahatmas to help manage the society.

 

How is this related to implementing varnasrama in Isckon?

I just try to learn something.

 

ys

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

On 3.08.99 Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> I didn't say in the above text, nor anywhere else, that there was no

> varnasrama going on anywhere including ISKCON.

>

> READ what I said: Is there varnasrama colleges in EVERY center? Have the

> "leaders" divided the society of devotees into the four varnas

> methodically as Srila Prabhupada ordered?

 

But what should be thought in such varnasrama colleges in every center? Is

there anyone in our movement expert to teach some practical varna education

at this moment?

What do you understand by teaching a varna in the VAD college in every

center, there are hundreds of diferent ocupations one can learn at the karmi

schools, which can be atributed to a particular varna? Should one try to

teach all of this with a devotional atitude, that would be absurd I think?

Why not go to a school and learn a job or study at the university, they are

much moore expert at this, at the present moment, I think?

On what basis should our leaders divide the society of devotees into the

four varnas? Where they traind enogh by Srila Prabhupada or by some other

experts so that they can do it at the present moment, or in the last 25

years, to take your number?

Would it not be better at the present moment in our society to cooperate

with the schools and coleges who already exist in regard to job education

for a particular varna and teach in our colleges our specific vedic

understanding on top of this, to our devotees?

What would be the practical results or benefits of doing this?

Is varnasrama a matter of dividing people and designate them acordingly or

first and foremost understanding the principles behind it?

 

Please dear Janesvara prabhu maybe you can help me to understand your way of

thinking in this matter.

 

ys

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

Dear Harsi Prabhu:

 

Once again your excellent questions are worthy of excellent answers and

quite frankly I feel very uncomfortable trying to answer them. I am a

neophyte in varnasrama devotional service. These questions should be given

the utmost care and consideration. A brahmana would be most suitable to

answer these inquiries. Perhaps the Prabhus on the conference can suggest

some brahmanas who are qualified and dedicated to varnasrama to provide some

answers for you.

 

I will only offer my opinions as follows and they, as all of my comments,

are from my perspective as a ksatriya. Take them with a grain of salt.

 

> Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> > > You will simply produce the opposite effect by this kind of

> > > "preaching".

> >

> > Only in those who are not sincerely interested in establishing Srila

> > Prabhupada's orders regarding varnasrama

 

> But how should they establish anything like varnasrama when they

themselves

> don,t understand what Prabhupada meant by this, like we could see in

> Ravindra Svarupa prabhus article?

 

 

Baby steps. We are not interested right now in "establishing" varnasrama. We

first have to recognize it. Then we can take the steps to follow the

methodical program that Srila Prabhupada described in his varnasrama morning

walk conversations in March 1974. Starting varnasrama "colleges" does not

have to mean we open an institution like Harvard or Cornell. We can start

small counseling rooms in EVERY center and just start talking about

varnasrama with EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY. Reading the morning walk

conversations and all other references to varnasrama from Srila Prabhupada.

There are thousands of references. Everything is in the books.

 

We don't have to understand varnasrama on the level of Srila Prabhupada

RIGHT NOW to get started. We DO have to follow his instructions and BEGIN

the program. COMMUNICATION is key.

 

 

> Or no common consensus or understanding...

 

For the society of devotees to begin the program together there must be

leaders who are of one mind on this issue. IF the present leaders are not or

cannot be convinced, then they must be re-engaged in other service. The

citizens HAVE the power to change this.

 

 

> Should one not first try to gain some common understanding in regard what

> varnasrama dharma actualy means, also in regard to that wath we call

> devotional service for Krsna?

 

 

The program for "common understanding" is already there - Srila Prabhupada's

books. They are the ultimate authority. Everything is there. If there are

those who interpret them in such a way as to misdirect the citizens in a

chaotic direction, this is clear evidence that the leaders are unqualified

and either have to change there ways or be re-engaged elsewise. There WILL

be others to take their place if the citizens voice their demands. This is

the right of the citizens.

 

 

> For example Arjuna he was doing devotional service by fighting the battle

of

> Kuruksetra for Krsna, using his skill and expertise as a ksatriya wariour

> which he learned at the school of Dronacarya, I guess in the present days

he

> would have went to some military academy to learn the art of fighting,

> military strategy and warfare, or would he have come to some Iskcon temple

> in order to learn this art?

 

 

Prabhupada clearly described this function in his varnasrama morning walks.

This training would take place at the varnasrama college. The ksatriya

college can be located practically; village, mountains, forest, etc.

Hunting, fitness, management curriculum, leadership training, etc., are

programs which need certain logistical requirements met.

 

 

> And again only Arjuna and Krsna knew that wath

> he was doing was devotional service and not sense gratification.

 

 

No. Millions of devotees in Hastinapura, Mathura, Dvaraka and other cities

and towns knew clearly that varnasrama performed by devotees is devotional

service.

 

 

> Duryodhana

> was folowing also his ksatriya varna, but was it devotional service?

 

 

No. But he did perform his material duties very well and piously for the

most part. He needed only to add chanting Hare Krsna to his program. He was

envious of Krsna and His pure devotees. On the other hand, devotees like

Arjuna do not just chant and forsake action. That is mayavada or sahajiya.

Krsna works because He has to show the example; "and the whole world

pursues."

 

 

 

> So when is following ones varna inclinations in varnasrama, devotional

> service and when is it sense gratification ?

 

 

When it is in submission to the Lord. Sense gratification is there in

devotees also, but their goal is to conquer sense gratification gradually

and realistically through the institution of varnasrama-dharma. The time it

takes to do this has no bearing on the definition of a person as a devotee.

Krsna sees our millions and millions of lifetimes "away" from Him as a blink

of an eye. ANd when we "return" to Him He says, "Oh, were you gone

somewhere? Welcome back!"

 

Non-devotees go in the opposite direction and try to figure out ways to

continually fulfill sense gratification eternally and not submit to God.

 

 

> And is following ones varna duties only in the Isckon society devotional

> service or can this be done also in the greater society we also belong?

 

 

Varnasrama-dharma or, sanatana-dharma, is truly the only non-sectarian

religion. It can be followed by anyone anywhere using any nomenclature known

to that person. What were those Russian names for Krsna? Kryshen, Vyshen and

Kolyada I believe. A good Russian in Siberia can perform his duty which is

determined naturally by his guna and karma and chant these holy names and

reach the perfection. The name of his varna may be something in Russian but

is the same as brahmana, ksatriya, or manager, soldier, teacher, laborer,

etc. Vedic varnasrama fits all human beings and enhances the human culture

in definitive terms and standards. Like in Bg the qualifications are given

there for ksatriya; sauryam tejo dhritir daksam, etc., heroism, power,

determination, resourcefulness, leadership, etc., same for brahmana, vaisya

and sudras. Krsna gives detailed direction, not just "anything goes". No.

Krsna is methodical and organized.

 

 

 

> What does " need and want varnasrama in their lives immediately" means

> actually to you,

 

 

Occupation. Everyone needs to WORK. This is the nature of the living entity.

It is natural. The occupation must be in accordance with varnasrama in order

to help the person progress toward the perfection of life. A person

pretending to be a brahmana because he was born in a brahmana family or

simply because he wears a thread, but who is actually a different varna

makes no appreciable progress in life or goes the opposite direction. This

Krsna explained to Arjuna carefully and methodically.

 

 

> or should it mean to us, practicaly speaking?

 

 

We must each seek out our natural guna and karma, sva-dharma, and, in this

age especially, chant the holy names of God while we engage ourselves. This

Krsna explained to Arjuna very clearly. And Krsna told Arjuna he would

certainly come to Him; mat-karma-krn mat paramo mad-bhakta sanga varjitah.

And, tasmat sarvesu kalesu mam anushmara yudhya ca, etc. We will go back to

Him.

 

 

> How does Iskcon and its leadership stopp or hinder us from beying active

in

> implementing varnasrama in our lifes?

 

 

Not at all if one is capable and determined to take it upon oneself to

engage in ones sva-dharma, varna duty, where ever one is and keep his mind

and intelligence fixed on Him and one's activities dedicated to Him. Where

ever that person is, is Vaikuntha.

 

But practically speaking, it would be a whole helluva lot more fun doing it

with a whole bunch of other people! And, also, some people have a need to be

assisted regularly and comprehensively in learning and practicing varnasrama

devotional service. This means teachers/brahmanas, leaders/managers, etc.

 

 

 

> >This creates the worst effect of all. Thus thousands have fled the chaos.

> >To stay on a burning ship is insanity, especially when the captains have

> >thrown all the fire extinguishers overboard.

>

> Now somehow I cannot follow you anymoore, what do you mean by all this?

 

 

Some devotees are disturbed by strong promotion of varnasrama and think it

has a bad effect on something or other. My point is that by NOT following

varnasrama has the WORST effect on things because it promotes child abuse,

cow abuse, women abuse, innocent disciple abuse, etc.; the things we have

seen proliferate in ISKCON for the last 25 years. We are condemned by most

of society NOT because we have shown the practical way to live according to

natural human nature, but for saying we think we are above all this. The

"holier than everyone" syndrome famous throughout ISKCON. Had we taken the

varnasrama route we would have been promoting hard work for the Lord and had

employment to support ourselves and keep our idle minds engaged.

 

The GBC and other "leaders" of ISKCON were given clear instructions from

Srila Prabhupada to start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the

movement over 25 years ago and have not done a SINGLE one along the specific

lines of his orders, ever. The "ship" of ISKCON is on fire and they spend

all of their time now putting out all the little fires and yet they have

thrown out the best "fire extinguisher" for the cause of the fires -

varnasrama. This is a very poor idea. It will not work. They can on chanting

and chanting all they want to but if people are not divided into their

natural sva-dharma they will continue to chant offensively and remain on

neophyte levels of spiritual realization and not attain to second and first

levels of advancement wherefrom they will never fall down. This is most

apparent with many "senior" disciples who were chanting and doing devotional

activities far in excess of what many others were doing and still did not

attain the faith strong enough to keep them from "falling down".

 

Varnasrama is a scientific institution that guarantees the building of

gradual, strong, incremental but certain faith in God consciousness.

 

 

> > Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but

> > they have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement.

>

> What would have been different if Isckon would have followed a varnasrama

> dharma structure wathever that would mean?

> Or in other words followed the orders of Prabhupada in this regard.

 

 

I am not a soothsayer, but we could at least have said we followed Srila

Prabhupada's orders to chant Hare Krsna AND implement varnasrama. Now we

barely have half of the equation and we wonder why there is so much chaos?

We do not have to condemn or stop anything that has been accomplished thus

far in the service of Krsna; chanting, dancing, feasting, etc. But we MUST

add the other high priority item of Srila Prabhupada's mission if we want to

be successful in seeing the Krsna consciousness movement progress.

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that when devotees are appointed high court

judges that is when he will be convinced that the Krsna consciousness

movement is progressing. ISKCON is farther away from this goal now than it

was 25 years ago. Is that progress?

Don't judge it by Janesvara dasa's criticism, judge according to

Bhaktisidhanta's statement. Or will the GBC and others offer yet another

fanciful interpretation of this statement?

 

 

 

> > I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former

> > members of the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and

> > supporting THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for

> > sustenance. And yet the GBC and others will not even consider

submissively

> > inviting these mahatmas to help manage the society.

>

> How is this related to implementing varnasrama in Isckon?

> I just try to learn something.

 

 

 

My feeling is that there are many disciples of Srila Prabhupada and others

who have left ISKCON out of sheer distaste and disillusionment from issues

such as zonal acarya and guru "diseases" of different sorts, along with

child sexual and physical abuse, as well as plain and simple unemployment,

who have since leaving become qualified materially in areas of the four

varnas who could share very valuable information and management expertise

for the benefit of the movement. This would drive the varnasrama "engine".

 

But most that I know are not interested in even being associated in any way

with ISKCON. Prabhupada said one should not associate with a devotee of bad

character. There are plenty of bad characters in ISKCON. To deny it is to

deny children and cows their rights.

 

ys,

Jd

[Guest guest]

Dear Harsi Prabhu:

 

Once again your excellent questions are worthy of excellent answers and

quite frankly I feel very uncomfortable trying to answer them. I am a

neophyte in varnasrama devotional service. These questions should be given

the utmost care and consideration. A brahmana would be most suitable to

answer these inquiries. Perhaps the Prabhus on the conference can suggest

some brahmanas who are qualified and dedicated to varnasrama to provide some

answers for you.

 

I will only offer my opinions as follows and they, as all of my comments,

are from my perspective as a ksatriya. Take them with a grain of salt.

 

> Janesvara Dasa wrote:

>

> > > You will simply produce the opposite effect by this kind of

> > > "preaching".

> >

> > Only in those who are not sincerely interested in establishing Srila

> > Prabhupada's orders regarding varnasrama

 

> But how should they establish anything like varnasrama when they

themselves

> don,t understand what Prabhupada meant by this, like we could see in

> Ravindra Svarupa prabhus article?

 

 

Baby steps. We are not interested right now in "establishing" varnasrama. We

first have to recognize it. Then we can take the steps to follow the

methodical program that Srila Prabhupada described in his varnasrama morning

walk conversations in March 1974. Starting varnasrama "colleges" does not

have to mean we open an institution like Harvard or Cornell. We can start

small counseling rooms in EVERY center and just start talking about

varnasrama with EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY. Reading the morning walk

conversations and all other references to varnasrama from Srila Prabhupada.

There are thousands of references. Everything is in the books.

 

We don't have to understand varnasrama on the level of Srila Prabhupada

RIGHT NOW to get started. We DO have to follow his instructions and BEGIN

the program. COMMUNICATION is key.

 

 

> Or no common consensus or understanding...

 

For the society of devotees to begin the program together there must be

leaders who are of one mind on this issue. IF the present leaders are not or

cannot be convinced, then they must be re-engaged in other service. The

citizens HAVE the power to change this.

 

 

> Should one not first try to gain some common understanding in regard what

> varnasrama dharma actualy means, also in regard to that wath we call

> devotional service for Krsna?

 

 

The program for "common understanding" is already there - Srila Prabhupada's

books. They are the ultimate authority. Everything is there. If there are

those who interpret them in such a way as to misdirect the citizens in a

chaotic direction, this is clear evidence that the leaders are unqualified

and either have to change there ways or be re-engaged elsewise. There WILL

be others to take their place if the citizens voice their demands. This is

the right of the citizens.

 

 

> For example Arjuna he was doing devotional service by fighting the battle

of

> Kuruksetra for Krsna, using his skill and expertise as a ksatriya wariour

> which he learned at the school of Dronacarya, I guess in the present days

he

> would have went to some military academy to learn the art of fighting,

> military strategy and warfare, or would he have come to some Iskcon temple

> in order to learn this art?

 

 

Prabhupada clearly described this function in his varnasrama morning walks.

This training would take place at the varnasrama college. The ksatriya

college can be located practically; village, mountains, forest, etc.

Hunting, fitness, management curriculum, leadership training, etc., are

programs which need certain logistical requirements met.

 

 

> And again only Arjuna and Krsna knew that wath

> he was doing was devotional service and not sense gratification.

 

 

No. Millions of devotees in Hastinapura, Mathura, Dvaraka and other cities

and towns knew clearly that varnasrama performed by devotees is devotional

service.

 

 

> Duryodhana

> was folowing also his ksatriya varna, but was it devotional service?

 

 

No. But he did perform his material duties very well and piously for the

most part. He needed only to add chanting Hare Krsna to his program. He was

envious of Krsna and His pure devotees. On the other hand, devotees like

Arjuna do not just chant and forsake action. That is mayavada or sahajiya.

Krsna works because He has to show the example; "and the whole world

pursues."

 

 

 

> So when is following ones varna inclinations in varnasrama, devotional

> service and when is it sense gratification ?

 

 

When it is in submission to the Lord. Sense gratification is there in

devotees also, but their goal is to conquer sense gratification gradually

and realistically through the institution of varnasrama-dharma. The time it

takes to do this has no bearing on the definition of a person as a devotee.

Krsna sees our millions and millions of lifetimes "away" from Him as a blink

of an eye. ANd when we "return" to Him He says, "Oh, were you gone

somewhere? Welcome back!"

 

Non-devotees go in the opposite direction and try to figure out ways to

continually fulfill sense gratification eternally and not submit to God.

 

 

> And is following ones varna duties only in the Isckon society devotional

> service or can this be done also in the greater society we also belong?

 

 

Varnasrama-dharma or, sanatana-dharma, is truly the only non-sectarian

religion. It can be followed by anyone anywhere using any nomenclature known

to that person. What were those Russian names for Krsna? Kryshen, Vyshen and

Kolyada I believe. A good Russian in Siberia can perform his duty which is

determined naturally by his guna and karma and chant these holy names and

reach the perfection. The name of his varna may be something in Russian but

is the same as brahmana, ksatriya, or manager, soldier, teacher, laborer,

etc. Vedic varnasrama fits all human beings and enhances the human culture

in definitive terms and standards. Like in Bg the qualifications are given

there for ksatriya; sauryam tejo dhritir daksam, etc., heroism, power,

determination, resourcefulness, leadership, etc., same for brahmana, vaisya

and sudras. Krsna gives detailed direction, not just "anything goes". No.

Krsna is methodical and organized.

 

 

 

> What does " need and want varnasrama in their lives immediately" means

> actually to you,

 

 

Occupation. Everyone needs to WORK. This is the nature of the living entity.

It is natural. The occupation must be in accordance with varnasrama in order

to help the person progress toward the perfection of life. A person

pretending to be a brahmana because he was born in a brahmana family or

simply because he wears a thread, but who is actually a different varna

makes no appreciable progress in life or goes the opposite direction. This

Krsna explained to Arjuna carefully and methodically.

 

 

> or should it mean to us, practicaly speaking?

 

 

We must each seek out our natural guna and karma, sva-dharma, and, in this

age especially, chant the holy names of God while we engage ourselves. This

Krsna explained to Arjuna very clearly. And Krsna told Arjuna he would

certainly come to Him; mat-karma-krn mat paramo mad-bhakta sanga varjitah.

And, tasmat sarvesu kalesu mam anushmara yudhya ca, etc. We will go back to

Him.

 

 

> How does Iskcon and its leadership stopp or hinder us from beying active

in

> implementing varnasrama in our lifes?

 

 

Not at all if one is capable and determined to take it upon oneself to

engage in ones sva-dharma, varna duty, where ever one is and keep his mind

and intelligence fixed on Him and one's activities dedicated to Him. Where

ever that person is, is Vaikuntha.

 

But practically speaking, it would be a whole helluva lot more fun doing it

with a whole bunch of other people! And, also, some people have a need to be

assisted regularly and comprehensively in learning and practicing varnasrama

devotional service. This means teachers/brahmanas, leaders/managers, etc.

 

 

 

> >This creates the worst effect of all. Thus thousands have fled the chaos.

> >To stay on a burning ship is insanity, especially when the captains have

> >thrown all the fire extinguishers overboard.

>

> Now somehow I cannot follow you anymoore, what do you mean by all this?

 

 

Some devotees are disturbed by strong promotion of varnasrama and think it

has a bad effect on something or other. My point is that by NOT following

varnasrama has the WORST effect on things because it promotes child abuse,

cow abuse, women abuse, innocent disciple abuse, etc.; the things we have

seen proliferate in ISKCON for the last 25 years. We are condemned by most

of society NOT because we have shown the practical way to live according to

natural human nature, but for saying we think we are above all this. The

"holier than everyone" syndrome famous throughout ISKCON. Had we taken the

varnasrama route we would have been promoting hard work for the Lord and had

employment to support ourselves and keep our idle minds engaged.

 

The GBC and other "leaders" of ISKCON were given clear instructions from

Srila Prabhupada to start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the

movement over 25 years ago and have not done a SINGLE one along the specific

lines of his orders, ever. The "ship" of ISKCON is on fire and they spend

all of their time now putting out all the little fires and yet they have

thrown out the best "fire extinguisher" for the cause of the fires -

varnasrama. This is a very poor idea. It will not work. They can on chanting

and chanting all they want to but if people are not divided into their

natural sva-dharma they will continue to chant offensively and remain on

neophyte levels of spiritual realization and not attain to second and first

levels of advancement wherefrom they will never fall down. This is most

apparent with many "senior" disciples who were chanting and doing devotional

activities far in excess of what many others were doing and still did not

attain the faith strong enough to keep them from "falling down".

 

Varnasrama is a scientific institution that guarantees the building of

gradual, strong, incremental but certain faith in God consciousness.

 

 

> > Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but

> > they have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement.

>

> What would have been different if Isckon would have followed a varnasrama

> dharma structure wathever that would mean?

> Or in other words followed the orders of Prabhupada in this regard.

 

 

I am not a soothsayer, but we could at least have said we followed Srila

Prabhupada's orders to chant Hare Krsna AND implement varnasrama. Now we

barely have half of the equation and we wonder why there is so much chaos?

We do not have to condemn or stop anything that has been accomplished thus

far in the service of Krsna; chanting, dancing, feasting, etc. But we MUST

add the other high priority item of Srila Prabhupada's mission if we want to

be successful in seeing the Krsna consciousness movement progress.

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that when devotees are appointed high court

judges that is when he will be convinced that the Krsna consciousness

movement is progressing. ISKCON is farther away from this goal now than it

was 25 years ago. Is that progress?

Don't judge it by Janesvara dasa's criticism, judge according to

Bhaktisidhanta's statement. Or will the GBC and others offer yet another

fanciful interpretation of this statement?

 

 

 

> > I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former

> > members of the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and

> > supporting THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for

> > sustenance. And yet the GBC and others will not even consider

submissively

> > inviting these mahatmas to help manage the society.

>

> How is this related to implementing varnasrama in Isckon?

> I just try to learn something.

 

 

 

My feeling is that there are many disciples of Srila Prabhupada and others

who have left ISKCON out of sheer distaste and disillusionment from issues

such as zonal acarya and guru "diseases" of different sorts, along with

child sexual and physical abuse, as well as plain and simple unemployment,

who have since leaving become qualified materially in areas of the four

varnas who could share very valuable information and management expertise

for the benefit of the movement. This would drive the varnasrama "engine".

 

But most that I know are not interested in even being associated in any way

with ISKCON. Prabhupada said one should not associate with a devotee of bad

character. There are plenty of bad characters in ISKCON. To deny it is to

deny children and cows their rights.

 

ys,

Jd

[Guest guest]

On 3 Aug 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

>

>

> Srila Prabhupada's mission was to bring KC to the West, as he got

> that order from his Guru Maharaja. And for that purpose he came and

> established this movement, ISCKON.

>

 

 

Naw, Prabhupada's mission was to establish Chairman Vad Mao here as our Vedic

malcontent reminding us what a bunch of bums we must be for not sympathizing

with his every sentiment on this account.

 

As a ksatriya, he might want to think about concentrating on leading, and not

on whining.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 3 Aug 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

>

>

> Srila Prabhupada's mission was to bring KC to the West, as he got

> that order from his Guru Maharaja. And for that purpose he came and

> established this movement, ISCKON.

>

 

 

Naw, Prabhupada's mission was to establish Chairman Vad Mao here as our Vedic

malcontent reminding us what a bunch of bums we must be for not sympathizing

with his every sentiment on this account.

 

As a ksatriya, he might want to think about concentrating on leading, and not

on whining.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 3 Aug 1999, Harsi das wrote:

 

 

> But how should they establish anything like varnasrama when they themselves

don,t understand what Prabhupada meant by this, like we could see in Ravindra

Svarupa prabhus article? Or no common consensus or understanding... Should one

not first try to gain some common understanding in regard what varnasrama

dharma actualy means, also in regard to that wath we call devotional service

for Krsna?

>

 

 

 

Why should Chairman Vad Mao let a little thoughtfulness get in the way of a

good whining. The facts so often just get in the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 3 Aug 1999, Harsi das wrote:

 

 

> But how should they establish anything like varnasrama when they themselves

don,t understand what Prabhupada meant by this, like we could see in Ravindra

Svarupa prabhus article? Or no common consensus or understanding... Should one

not first try to gain some common understanding in regard what varnasrama

dharma actualy means, also in regard to that wath we call devotional service

for Krsna?

>

 

 

 

Why should Chairman Vad Mao let a little thoughtfulness get in the way of a

good whining. The facts so often just get in the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> The chanting will go on because it cleanses the heart. It is a perfect

> companion to fallen souls trying to make advancement through the varnasrama

system.

>

 

 

Yep, the purpose of chanting is to start of VAD society so Chairman VAD Mao

can believe he's a real ksatriya, instead of blaming the GBC that he can only

fantasize about it. That's Lord Caitanya's mission.

 

I don't know about the Chairman. All the devotees I know, at least the ones

who have to support of family and go on with their spiritual pursuits, have

dealt with the 'varna' issue. Having bills to pay is one amazing motivation

for figuring out a material carear. Sure, things would be nicer in an ideal

VAD society.

 

I guess we need to chant better so we can get a real job.

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> The chanting will go on because it cleanses the heart. It is a perfect

> companion to fallen souls trying to make advancement through the varnasrama

system.

>

 

 

Yep, the purpose of chanting is to start of VAD society so Chairman VAD Mao

can believe he's a real ksatriya, instead of blaming the GBC that he can only

fantasize about it. That's Lord Caitanya's mission.

 

I don't know about the Chairman. All the devotees I know, at least the ones

who have to support of family and go on with their spiritual pursuits, have

dealt with the 'varna' issue. Having bills to pay is one amazing motivation

for figuring out a material carear. Sure, things would be nicer in an ideal

VAD society.

 

I guess we need to chant better so we can get a real job.

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> READ what I said: Is there varnasrama colleges in EVERY center? Have the

"leaders" divided the society of devotees into the four varnas methodically as

Srila Prabhupada ordered?

>

 

 

Maybe not. Therefore I would like to suggest da Chairman lead us forward by

telling his followers what he feels they should be doing to pay their bills,

because only after they pay their bills will their chanting become purifying.

I am sure such devotees will fall at his feet in gratitude knowing they have

someone willing to direct their life in such a manner.

 

You know, the ISKCON leaders are not meant to be our little fairy godmothers.

Anyone with half an eyelid open ought to be able to figure they're gonna have

to support themselves after a few years of devotional training, particularly

if they want to get married. I have found that devotees who expect others to

plan their life for them tend to become very disgruntled devotees.

 

That after twenty-five years we do not have the traditions and insight that

comes with generations of experience is no small wonder to me. Prabhupada also

said preach according to our realization, not simply our fanatacism.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> READ what I said: Is there varnasrama colleges in EVERY center? Have the

"leaders" divided the society of devotees into the four varnas methodically as

Srila Prabhupada ordered?

>

 

 

Maybe not. Therefore I would like to suggest da Chairman lead us forward by

telling his followers what he feels they should be doing to pay their bills,

because only after they pay their bills will their chanting become purifying.

I am sure such devotees will fall at his feet in gratitude knowing they have

someone willing to direct their life in such a manner.

 

You know, the ISKCON leaders are not meant to be our little fairy godmothers.

Anyone with half an eyelid open ought to be able to figure they're gonna have

to support themselves after a few years of devotional training, particularly

if they want to get married. I have found that devotees who expect others to

plan their life for them tend to become very disgruntled devotees.

 

That after twenty-five years we do not have the traditions and insight that

comes with generations of experience is no small wonder to me. Prabhupada also

said preach according to our realization, not simply our fanatacism.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 3 Aug 1999, Harsi das wrote:

 

 

>

> But what should be thought in such varnasrama colleges in every center? Is

there anyone in our movement expert to teach some practical varna education at

this moment?

>

 

 

 

Who needs teachers, when we have whiners?

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Joel Fairbank wrote:

 

 

>

> Baby steps. We are not interested right now in "establishing" varnasrama. We

first have to recognize it. Then we can take the steps to follow the

methodical program that Srila Prabhupada described in his varnasrama morning

walk conversations in March 1974. Starting varnasrama "colleges" does not have

to mean we open an institution like Harvard or Cornell. We can start small

counseling rooms in EVERY center and just start talking about varnasrama with

EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY.

>

 

 

I would agree, we need to concentrate on appreciating the natural energy of

VAD, how people naturally congregate towards various carear paths and how they

can engage them and themselves in devotional service, both individually and

collective. My particular interest is practically understanding how these 4

main human 'energies', or Varnas, work harmoniously in a mature VAD society.

The last thing I think we would want to establish is some sort of Vedicized

Victorian culture.

 

In other words, we have to learn how to recognize VAD, particularly within the

lives of the devotees. Such things do not necessarily need managerial stamps

of approval. In one sense, things like varna and ashrama are a natural thing,

but they obviously flourish much better with the guidance of experienced

practitioners.

 

So this idea might be a bit more subtle than griping about GBC inadequacies.

Yes, 25 years of experience is not the same as 25 generations. At this stage,

I believe devotees surely should be counceled that living as an ashrama

brahmancari/ini is only one stage in a full life of Krsna consciousness.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 03 Aug 1999, Joel Fairbank wrote:

 

 

>

> Baby steps. We are not interested right now in "establishing" varnasrama. We

first have to recognize it. Then we can take the steps to follow the

methodical program that Srila Prabhupada described in his varnasrama morning

walk conversations in March 1974. Starting varnasrama "colleges" does not have

to mean we open an institution like Harvard or Cornell. We can start small

counseling rooms in EVERY center and just start talking about varnasrama with

EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY.

>

 

 

I would agree, we need to concentrate on appreciating the natural energy of

VAD, how people naturally congregate towards various carear paths and how they

can engage them and themselves in devotional service, both individually and

collective. My particular interest is practically understanding how these 4

main human 'energies', or Varnas, work harmoniously in a mature VAD society.

The last thing I think we would want to establish is some sort of Vedicized

Victorian culture.

 

In other words, we have to learn how to recognize VAD, particularly within the

lives of the devotees. Such things do not necessarily need managerial stamps

of approval. In one sense, things like varna and ashrama are a natural thing,

but they obviously flourish much better with the guidance of experienced

practitioners.

 

So this idea might be a bit more subtle than griping about GBC inadequacies.

Yes, 25 years of experience is not the same as 25 generations. At this stage,

I believe devotees surely should be counceled that living as an ashrama

brahmancari/ini is only one stage in a full life of Krsna consciousness.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

>

> Why should Chairman Vad Mao let a little thoughtfulness get in the way of

> a good whining. The facts so often just get in the way.

 

 

What nonsense is this...

Are this objective arguments regarding varnasrama?

 

 

 

..