Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 > > You said that the payment of the fair price eliminates the bad karma. Then it was misunderstanding. The payment of the fair price eliminates the flow of personal karma from the first owner to the next, unlike to accepting charity. But didn't I already explained what I meant? > The > market price is not the fair price. Part of the price is paid for with > the blood of the cow, and that is not fair. I was all the time under impression that we were referring rather to general karma principles in case of charity versus trade. ------------------------- OK. Now it is the "blood milk". Not "acceptance of money or food". Well, here we deal with opinions. You think that purchasing one liter of milk in a store is a sinful activity, even if offered to Krsna (perhaps then is double sinful). I am not dictating the market price. I come to buy my liter of milk, and I pay what I was asked. From my side, that is a fair payment. If the price would be double, I would still pay. Get on the case of sinful farmers who kill their calves and old cows, not on the case of milk consumers who pay the asked price for the milk. > The fair price would include > the cost of raising both the cow who gave the milk and her calf to a ripe > old age. That is fair. And then I would agree with your premise that > paying the fair price eliminates the karma. It would be really foolish to think that simply paying a fair price for anything (not only milk) eliminates the karma. Please don't say that this is my premise. Such premise would be nothing but foolishness. What eliminates karma is the act of sacrifice. Otherwise, it is either karma or vikarma. So, shall I next time when buying my liter of milk leave extra 4 svenska kronor to a shopkeeper, in order to free myself from the crime of not paying the "fair price"? If that is what means paying fairly for the goods. What about everything else that is on market? Nothing is of "fair price" in this world, if you really want to split the hears. But paying the market price, that what asked, is what I consider paying fairly for goods. It's not charity, nor it is stealing. It's a fair trade. And it's all still -- karma. The materialistic activities. - mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 > > > So, shall I next time when buying my liter of milk leave extra > 4 svenska kronor to a shopkeeper, in order to free myself from > the crime of not paying the "fair price"? If that is what means > paying fairly for the goods. What about everything else that > is on market? Nothing is of "fair price" in this world, if you > really want to split the hears. But paying the market price, > that what asked, is what I consider paying fairly for goods. > It's not charity, nor it is stealing. It's a fair trade. And > it's all still -- karma. The materialistic activities. > > - mnd What I am saying is that the extra should go to pay for cow protection programs. Then you would be involved in cow protection, even if you were buying in the market. That would be a very practical sacrifice to make to help concretely establish VAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 > > What I am saying is that the extra should go to pay for cow protection > programs. Then you would be involved in cow protection, even if you were > buying in the market. That would be a very practical sacrifice to make to > help concretely establish VAD. Me and my wife together have very practically sacrificed away our 35 years of full engagement in that what was called "devotional service in ISCKON", to find ourselves realizing that better we had rather sacrificed some $10 monthly to a cow protection program -- that would have been a very practical help in concretely establishing VAD. Anyway, that was a joke. But your point is valid - people should donate their lovely money to a good cause (here to the cow protection team, particularly). Thus they will gradually purify their existence and they might eventually take up even the practicing of KC. That is also explained in BG, being recommended by Krsna to those who can't take up the higher forms of spiritual practice. - mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 "COM: Mahanidhi (das) (S)" wrote: > [Text 2514154 from COM] > > > > > What I am saying is that the extra should go to pay for cow protection > > programs. Then you would be involved in cow protection, even if you were > > buying in the market. That would be a very practical sacrifice to make to > > help concretely establish VAD. > > Me and my wife together have very practically sacrificed away our > 35 years of full engagement in that what was called "devotional service > in ISCKON", to find ourselves realizing that better we had rather > sacrificed some $10 monthly to a cow protection program -- that would > have been a very practical help in concretely establishing VAD. > > Anyway, that was a joke. There is no loss or diminuation. There is also increasing our service, or expanding our conception of what devotional can be. Not that any new horizon invalidates any past experiences. > But your point is valid - people should > donate their lovely money to a good cause (here to the cow protection > team, particularly). Thus they will gradually purify their existence > and they might eventually take up even the practicing of KC. That is > also explained in BG, being recommended by Krsna to those who can't > take up the higher forms of spiritual practice. > > - mnd Exactly. If the brahmans could set the example of having endowment funds, and of supporting them, then the congregational and life members would also be enlivened to contribute. With an ethical production of milk available to them, to expect support from current vegans and animal rightist would also be realistic. Just to trip out for a moment - as an expansion on the cow protection on the farms, summer camps could be set up that the supporting members could send there children to. also retreats for adults, retirement communities, hospices, colleges etc. As the capital base slowly expands, the broader societal vision could unfold. So not only could devotees in the cash economy purify their purchases of market milk, but they could feel they were contributing to building an economic foundation for the manifestation of VAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 "COM: Mahanidhi (das) (S)" wrote: > [Text 2514154 from COM] > > > > > What I am saying is that the extra should go to pay for cow protection > > programs. Then you would be involved in cow protection, even if you were > > buying in the market. That would be a very practical sacrifice to make to > > help concretely establish VAD. > > Me and my wife together have very practically sacrificed away our > 35 years of full engagement in that what was called "devotional service > in ISCKON", to find ourselves realizing that better we had rather > sacrificed some $10 monthly to a cow protection program -- that would > have been a very practical help in concretely establishing VAD. > > Anyway, that was a joke. There is no loss or diminuation. There is also increasing our service, or expanding our conception of what devotional can be. Not that any new horizon invalidates any past experiences. > But your point is valid - people should > donate their lovely money to a good cause (here to the cow protection > team, particularly). Thus they will gradually purify their existence > and they might eventually take up even the practicing of KC. That is > also explained in BG, being recommended by Krsna to those who can't > take up the higher forms of spiritual practice. > > - mnd Exactly. If the brahmans could set the example of having endowment funds, and of supporting them, then the congregational and life members would also be enlivened to contribute. With an ethical production of milk available to them, to expect support from current vegans and animal rightist would also be realistic. Just to trip out for a moment - as an expansion on the cow protection on the farms, summer camps could be set up that the supporting members could send there children to. also retreats for adults, retirement communities, hospices, colleges etc. As the capital base slowly expands, the broader societal vision could unfold. So not only could devotees in the cash economy purify their purchases of market milk, but they could feel they were contributing to building an economic foundation for the manifestation of VAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > > Anyway, that was a joke. > > There is no loss or diminuation. There is also increasing our service, > or expanding our conception of what devotional can be. Not that any new > horizon invalidates any past experiences. My idea was that it seams to not matter in what extent of devotional service one is being engaged, or what amount of contribution to a particular project one has been invested, one is still guilty of the sin for consuming "blood milk". But as soon as some extra money over the market price of the milk is being given to the caw protection program, then it's all fine and the help in concrete establishing VAD is being all of sudden made. If the need for money is there, then make a money rising campaign, like everybody else does it (maybe you are doing it already, here?). But why to do it in the name of atonement? "If you give us some money, you are excused from drinking 'blood milk'. If you don't, then you'll be getting sinful reactions. And I will be reminding you on it in any time." > That is > > also explained in BG, being recommended by Krsna to those who can't take > > up the higher forms of spiritual practice. > > Exactly. If the brahmans could set the example of having endowment funds, > and of supporting them, then the congregational and life members would > also be enlivened to contribute. Which brahmanas? They are also in need of funds themselves. You can eventually expect from them to give donations only when they themselves get enough of it. The actual brahmanas will then do it. They don't accumulate for themselves. But we don't really expect from brahmanas to give the example of doing the economical support to different projects in ISCKON. However, I would rather expect that if the brahminical class is getting *pure* enough, that itself would be the enlivenment for the congregational and life members to contribute financially. To say frankly, I myself (who have spent the time under the ISCKON temple structure command) would not be inspired to simply give donation to ISCKON just like that. If that time would occur when I get a surplus of money, then the sure way to engage it in the higher cause would be, so far I am concerned, that I myself overlook its usage in some particular project. I have my reasons for that. So, if it comes to me personally -- giving some monthly contribution in money, in order to thus purify my existence, is out of question. Tell me all how my life is otherwise full of karma and sin. > With an ethical production of milk > available to them, to expect support from current vegans and animal > rightist would also be realistic. > Well, the purity is said to be the force. You may develop all kinds of devices, but it boils down basically to one "device" only -- purity. But why go to "vegans and animal rightists"? My personal experience is that ISCKON is expert in loosing the support from the own full time members. It's the whole history, already. > Just to trip out for a moment - as an expansion on the cow protection on > the farms, summer camps could be set up that the supporting members could > send there children to. also retreats for adults, retirement > communities, hospices, colleges etc. As the capital base slowly expands, > the broader societal vision could unfold. > Yes. There could be different possibilities. Some of these are already going on in some places, as I know. The ideas are there, the attempts also sometimes... > So not only could devotees in the cash economy purify their purchases of > market milk, but they could feel they were contributing to building an > economic foundation for the manifestation of VAD. Well, "all" you need is to inspire the "devotees in the cash economy" to give you donations. So that they may thus purify their purchases of market milk (got no other way, apparently), and contribute to the manifestation of VAD (got no other way, apparently). But don't mind me to remind you on the most common phenomena in this world, and in this ISCKON -- everybody is in want of money. Nothing new. Everybody says just the same thing, "Give us the money, so you and everybody else will be profiting". - mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > > Anyway, that was a joke. > > There is no loss or diminuation. There is also increasing our service, > or expanding our conception of what devotional can be. Not that any new > horizon invalidates any past experiences. My idea was that it seams to not matter in what extent of devotional service one is being engaged, or what amount of contribution to a particular project one has been invested, one is still guilty of the sin for consuming "blood milk". But as soon as some extra money over the market price of the milk is being given to the caw protection program, then it's all fine and the help in concrete establishing VAD is being all of sudden made. If the need for money is there, then make a money rising campaign, like everybody else does it (maybe you are doing it already, here?). But why to do it in the name of atonement? "If you give us some money, you are excused from drinking 'blood milk'. If you don't, then you'll be getting sinful reactions. And I will be reminding you on it in any time." > That is > > also explained in BG, being recommended by Krsna to those who can't take > > up the higher forms of spiritual practice. > > Exactly. If the brahmans could set the example of having endowment funds, > and of supporting them, then the congregational and life members would > also be enlivened to contribute. Which brahmanas? They are also in need of funds themselves. You can eventually expect from them to give donations only when they themselves get enough of it. The actual brahmanas will then do it. They don't accumulate for themselves. But we don't really expect from brahmanas to give the example of doing the economical support to different projects in ISCKON. However, I would rather expect that if the brahminical class is getting *pure* enough, that itself would be the enlivenment for the congregational and life members to contribute financially. To say frankly, I myself (who have spent the time under the ISCKON temple structure command) would not be inspired to simply give donation to ISCKON just like that. If that time would occur when I get a surplus of money, then the sure way to engage it in the higher cause would be, so far I am concerned, that I myself overlook its usage in some particular project. I have my reasons for that. So, if it comes to me personally -- giving some monthly contribution in money, in order to thus purify my existence, is out of question. Tell me all how my life is otherwise full of karma and sin. > With an ethical production of milk > available to them, to expect support from current vegans and animal > rightist would also be realistic. > Well, the purity is said to be the force. You may develop all kinds of devices, but it boils down basically to one "device" only -- purity. But why go to "vegans and animal rightists"? My personal experience is that ISCKON is expert in loosing the support from the own full time members. It's the whole history, already. > Just to trip out for a moment - as an expansion on the cow protection on > the farms, summer camps could be set up that the supporting members could > send there children to. also retreats for adults, retirement > communities, hospices, colleges etc. As the capital base slowly expands, > the broader societal vision could unfold. > Yes. There could be different possibilities. Some of these are already going on in some places, as I know. The ideas are there, the attempts also sometimes... > So not only could devotees in the cash economy purify their purchases of > market milk, but they could feel they were contributing to building an > economic foundation for the manifestation of VAD. Well, "all" you need is to inspire the "devotees in the cash economy" to give you donations. So that they may thus purify their purchases of market milk (got no other way, apparently), and contribute to the manifestation of VAD (got no other way, apparently). But don't mind me to remind you on the most common phenomena in this world, and in this ISCKON -- everybody is in want of money. Nothing new. Everybody says just the same thing, "Give us the money, so you and everybody else will be profiting". - mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > > > If the need for money is there, then make a money rising campaign, > like everybody else does it (maybe you are doing it already, here?). > But why to do it in the name of atonement? "If you give us some money, > you are excused from drinking 'blood milk'. If you don't, then you'll > be getting sinful reactions. And I will be reminding you on it in any > time." Srila Prabhupada said every man should raise his own food. Srila Prabhupada said we should protect cows. I am suggesting a way that that can be practically done in the current urban centric society, where the reality is that most devotees won't be able to grow much of their own food or personally protect cows. Where the reality is that now milk from protected cows is not readily available. If you have a better alternative, please advise me. But the reality is that cows are being slaughtered in order to provide low cost milk. I am unable to just ignore that. If you feel it is no big deal, well,do what you feel works for you. It's not my opinion that counts, it's Yamaraja's. If you are comfortable with the status quo, keep on doing what you are doing. > > > > But we don't really expect from brahmanas to give the example of > doing the economical support to different projects in ISCKON. However, > I would rather expect that if the brahminical class is getting *pure* > enough, that itself would be the enlivenment for the congregational > and life members to contribute financially. That 's what I thought I was saying. > To say frankly, I > myself (who have spent the time under the ISCKON temple structure > command) would not be inspired to simply give donation to > ISCKON just like that. So you set up the Trust Fund and become the trustee for it and demonstrate how to do it correctly. > If that time would occur when I get > a surplus of money, then the sure way to engage it in the higher > cause would be, so far I am concerned, that I myself overlook > its usage in some particular project. I have my reasons for that. > So, if it comes to me personally -- giving some monthly contribution > in money, in order to thus purify my existence, is out of question. > Tell me all how my life is otherwise full of karma and sin. > You keep taking this in directions I am not intending to send it. Makes it difficult to communicate. > > But why go to "vegans and animal rightists"? My personal experience > is that ISCKON is expert in loosing the support from the own full > time members. It's the whole history, already. The cow is the archetype of society. My point is that if the mentality of it's okay to use blood milk, then why would you be surprised that devotees are mistreated? > But don't mind me to remind you on the most common phenomena in this > world, and in this ISCKON -- everybody is in want of money. Nothing > new. Everybody says just the same thing, "Give us the money, so you > and everybody else will be profiting". > > - mnd My point is that if the cow is exploited, then at the root you will be setting in motion the reaction of scarcity. The formula is that if the cow is protected, then abundance follows. To not assist in protecting cows because we don't have enough, that , to my mind, is penny wise and pound foolish. But , yes, if someone is hard rock poor and struggling for basic necessities, how can you expect much from them? I don't. But being from America, I know few like that. Even very poor people have some discretionery choice. The Hindu population in America is the wealhiest minority in America. They have money. but if they just see you begging from them so you can have some easy temple life, then yes, they are not eager to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > > > If the need for money is there, then make a money rising campaign, > like everybody else does it (maybe you are doing it already, here?). > But why to do it in the name of atonement? "If you give us some money, > you are excused from drinking 'blood milk'. If you don't, then you'll > be getting sinful reactions. And I will be reminding you on it in any > time." Srila Prabhupada said every man should raise his own food. Srila Prabhupada said we should protect cows. I am suggesting a way that that can be practically done in the current urban centric society, where the reality is that most devotees won't be able to grow much of their own food or personally protect cows. Where the reality is that now milk from protected cows is not readily available. If you have a better alternative, please advise me. But the reality is that cows are being slaughtered in order to provide low cost milk. I am unable to just ignore that. If you feel it is no big deal, well,do what you feel works for you. It's not my opinion that counts, it's Yamaraja's. If you are comfortable with the status quo, keep on doing what you are doing. > > > > But we don't really expect from brahmanas to give the example of > doing the economical support to different projects in ISCKON. However, > I would rather expect that if the brahminical class is getting *pure* > enough, that itself would be the enlivenment for the congregational > and life members to contribute financially. That 's what I thought I was saying. > To say frankly, I > myself (who have spent the time under the ISCKON temple structure > command) would not be inspired to simply give donation to > ISCKON just like that. So you set up the Trust Fund and become the trustee for it and demonstrate how to do it correctly. > If that time would occur when I get > a surplus of money, then the sure way to engage it in the higher > cause would be, so far I am concerned, that I myself overlook > its usage in some particular project. I have my reasons for that. > So, if it comes to me personally -- giving some monthly contribution > in money, in order to thus purify my existence, is out of question. > Tell me all how my life is otherwise full of karma and sin. > You keep taking this in directions I am not intending to send it. Makes it difficult to communicate. > > But why go to "vegans and animal rightists"? My personal experience > is that ISCKON is expert in loosing the support from the own full > time members. It's the whole history, already. The cow is the archetype of society. My point is that if the mentality of it's okay to use blood milk, then why would you be surprised that devotees are mistreated? > But don't mind me to remind you on the most common phenomena in this > world, and in this ISCKON -- everybody is in want of money. Nothing > new. Everybody says just the same thing, "Give us the money, so you > and everybody else will be profiting". > > - mnd My point is that if the cow is exploited, then at the root you will be setting in motion the reaction of scarcity. The formula is that if the cow is protected, then abundance follows. To not assist in protecting cows because we don't have enough, that , to my mind, is penny wise and pound foolish. But , yes, if someone is hard rock poor and struggling for basic necessities, how can you expect much from them? I don't. But being from America, I know few like that. Even very poor people have some discretionery choice. The Hindu population in America is the wealhiest minority in America. They have money. but if they just see you begging from them so you can have some easy temple life, then yes, they are not eager to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 > > Srila Prabhupada said every man should raise his own food. Srila > Prabhupada said we should protect cows. I am suggesting a way that that > can be practically done in the current urban centric society, where the > reality is that most devotees won't be able to grow much of their own > food or personally protect cows. Where the reality is that now milk from > protected cows is not readily available. If you have a better > alternative, please advise me. I think I am able to understand your proposal that one should contribute to the protection of caws. And that's what I also think to be the way for accomplishing anything substantially in this regard - we do the right things together. However, that moment you, as a "designated caw protector", wave with Yamaraja before other fellow devotees, well, I doubt some genuine cooperative work will be really accomplished. Well, maybe you could eventually get a few dollars, so that one could say "I am paying you already, so I am fine". Your life situation has brought you into the position to look upon other devotees as Yamaraja candidates, if they don't pay some money to the "designated caw protectors". > But the reality is that cows are being slaughtered in order to provide low > cost milk. I am unable to just ignore that. If you feel it is no big > deal, well,do what you feel works for you. The reality is that cows are being slaughtered NOT in order to provide low cost milk. But in order to provide the market with the meat for those who are in want of it. Why don't you look a bit more realistically for the reasons why the caw slaughter does exists. No matter what price of milk would be there, or wether there would be milk at al or would not be there, caws would be slaughtered anyway. Your idea that our purchasing milk on the market means our participation in caw-slaughtering, is an absurd idea. Indeed, that moment the milk would be boycotted, that moment all those caws would be instantly killed (even if for the sake of throwing them away, in order not to not to waste money on their unproductive maintenance. And the caw slaughter would juts continue, as the demand for meat dictates it. Not the demand for milk. > I am unable to just ignore that. If you feel it is no big > deal, well,do what you feel works for you. It's not my opinion that > counts, it's Yamaraja's. If you are comfortable with the status quo, > keep on doing what you are doing. Yes, the "right" impetus - the fear of Yamaraja. So what is it that I am "keeping doing what I am doing" so terribly that you got to remind me on Yamaraja? Oh, I am keeping not sending some dollars to a certain account. I really wish to finally start keeping doing what I am doing on the way I am convinced to be the way of doing it in my life, and not on the way others tell me constantly how to do it in order to avoid seeing Yamaraja. The threat of various kinds has been one of the most prominent experiences that I have encountered in the "association of devotees" in ISCKON. Got to get some relief of it, for some time at least. > > To say frankly, I > > myself (who have spent the time under the ISCKON temple structure > > command) would not be inspired to simply give donation to ISCKON just > > like that. > > > So you set up the Trust Fund and become the trustee for it and demonstrate > how to do it correctly. OK. Just wait. First squeeze out the people all their energy, and then leave them on the street, with no occupation, no income, no social security, no nothing. And then ask them for money (or they go to Yamaraja, otherwise). You know, this doesn't work even with your erth. You got to throw some caw-dung on it. At least. Otherwise, regarding money and Trust Funds - I happened to be there where the biggest concentration of ISCKON money used to be at the time. So let's better skip the topic on the "money in ISCKON". - mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 > > Srila Prabhupada said every man should raise his own food. Srila > Prabhupada said we should protect cows. I am suggesting a way that that > can be practically done in the current urban centric society, where the > reality is that most devotees won't be able to grow much of their own > food or personally protect cows. Where the reality is that now milk from > protected cows is not readily available. If you have a better > alternative, please advise me. I think I am able to understand your proposal that one should contribute to the protection of caws. And that's what I also think to be the way for accomplishing anything substantially in this regard - we do the right things together. However, that moment you, as a "designated caw protector", wave with Yamaraja before other fellow devotees, well, I doubt some genuine cooperative work will be really accomplished. Well, maybe you could eventually get a few dollars, so that one could say "I am paying you already, so I am fine". Your life situation has brought you into the position to look upon other devotees as Yamaraja candidates, if they don't pay some money to the "designated caw protectors". > But the reality is that cows are being slaughtered in order to provide low > cost milk. I am unable to just ignore that. If you feel it is no big > deal, well,do what you feel works for you. The reality is that cows are being slaughtered NOT in order to provide low cost milk. But in order to provide the market with the meat for those who are in want of it. Why don't you look a bit more realistically for the reasons why the caw slaughter does exists. No matter what price of milk would be there, or wether there would be milk at al or would not be there, caws would be slaughtered anyway. Your idea that our purchasing milk on the market means our participation in caw-slaughtering, is an absurd idea. Indeed, that moment the milk would be boycotted, that moment all those caws would be instantly killed (even if for the sake of throwing them away, in order not to not to waste money on their unproductive maintenance. And the caw slaughter would juts continue, as the demand for meat dictates it. Not the demand for milk. > I am unable to just ignore that. If you feel it is no big > deal, well,do what you feel works for you. It's not my opinion that > counts, it's Yamaraja's. If you are comfortable with the status quo, > keep on doing what you are doing. Yes, the "right" impetus - the fear of Yamaraja. So what is it that I am "keeping doing what I am doing" so terribly that you got to remind me on Yamaraja? Oh, I am keeping not sending some dollars to a certain account. I really wish to finally start keeping doing what I am doing on the way I am convinced to be the way of doing it in my life, and not on the way others tell me constantly how to do it in order to avoid seeing Yamaraja. The threat of various kinds has been one of the most prominent experiences that I have encountered in the "association of devotees" in ISCKON. Got to get some relief of it, for some time at least. > > To say frankly, I > > myself (who have spent the time under the ISCKON temple structure > > command) would not be inspired to simply give donation to ISCKON just > > like that. > > > So you set up the Trust Fund and become the trustee for it and demonstrate > how to do it correctly. OK. Just wait. First squeeze out the people all their energy, and then leave them on the street, with no occupation, no income, no social security, no nothing. And then ask them for money (or they go to Yamaraja, otherwise). You know, this doesn't work even with your erth. You got to throw some caw-dung on it. At least. Otherwise, regarding money and Trust Funds - I happened to be there where the biggest concentration of ISCKON money used to be at the time. So let's better skip the topic on the "money in ISCKON". - mnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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