Constructive Dialogue on Varnasrama Dharma evolution of ISKCON

[Guest guest]

> One should observe the principles of varna and asrama strictly for the

> satisfaction of the creator, for it is stated in the Bg by Lord Krsna that

> the four orders of the social system... are His creation. They should act

> according to the regulative principles of this institution and satisfy the

> Lord, just as different parts of the body all engage in the service of the

> whole. The whole is the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His virata-rupa

> or universal form. The brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are

> respectively the mouth, arms, abdomen and legs of the universal form of

> the Lord. So long as they are engaged in the service of the complete

> whole, their position is secure, otherwise they fall down from their

> respective positions and become degraded." SB 4.6.44

>

> Is this not devotional service Srila Prabhupada is referring to? "engaged

> in the service of the complete whole"?

 

But how can we do this in the outside world where there is no understanding

of the kind described above? While living in a ISKCON temple or farm project

everything seemed so clear, you engaged your work in the project and this

was considered to be devotional service, but when you are maried and live on

your own things seems to bee not so clear anymore, besides chanting,

offering your food to Krsna or worshiping Him on your privat altar.

 

> "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the

> proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama.

> There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One

> must be situated in the institution of the four varnas and asramas."

>

> "It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world

> to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be

> astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a

> Krishna conscious society." S.B. 5.1.24

 

But is ISKCON the world or should it become the world, one may ask?

 

 

ys

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

Janesvara wrote:

> > "One should observe the principles of varna and asrama strictly for the

> > satisfaction of the creator, for it is stated in the Bg by Lord Krsna

that

> > the four orders of the social system... are His creation. They should

act

> > according to the regulative principles of this institution and satisfy

the

> > Lord, just as different parts of the body all engage in the service of

the

> > whole. The whole is the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His

virata-rupa

> > or universal form. The brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are

> > respectively the mouth, arms, abdomen and legs of the universal form of

> > the Lord. So long as they are engaged in the service of the complete

> > whole, their position is secure, otherwise they fall down from their

> > respective positions and become degraded." SB 4.6.44

> >

> > Is this not devotional service Srila Prabhupada is referring to?

"engaged

> > in the service of the complete whole"?

 

 

> But how can we do this in the outside world where there is no

understanding

> of the kind described above? While living in a ISKCON temple or farm

project

> everything seemed so clear, you engaged your work in the project and this

> was considered to be devotional service, but when you are maried and live

on

> your own things seems to bee not so clear anymore, besides chanting,

> offering your food to Krsna or worshiping Him on your privat altar.

 

 

Every single human being is situated in one of the four varnas without

question. No one is outside the effects of the three material modes of

nature, unless he is "liberated"; fully cognizant of his self and Brahman.

Rest assured there is no one presently in ISKCON who is liberated, yet.

 

Thus, everyone can find out his or her varna through study of the scripture,

advice from brahmanas such as astrologers, self introspection, honesty, etc.

The answer can be found out very easily and quickly if one truly wants to

know in order to engage oneself properly. There is no support in the Vedic

system nor Lord Caitanya's program for a "classless" society of devotees.

This is nonsense.

 

"Srila Prabhupada:The tendency in this age of Kali to make a classless

society and not observe the principles of varna and asrama is a

manifestation of an impossible dream." There are many in ISKCON who want to

"just engage in whatever I feel the need or desire to do". This is

concoction without any support from scripture and will bring only chaos and

abuse of citizens rights. This we have seen abundantly in ISKCON and other

societies who refuse to inplement varnasrama.

 

"Srila Prabhupada: Destruction of the social and spiritual orders will not

bring fulfillment of the idea of a classless society."

 

 

 

 

> > "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the

> > proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama.

> > There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One

> > must be situated in the institution of the four varnas and asramas."

> >

> > "It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the

world

> > to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be

> > astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a

> > Krishna conscious society." S.B. 5.1.24

>

> But is ISKCON the world or should it become the world, one may ask?

 

 

"Prabhupada: Yes. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or

sannyasis. No. That is not

possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world

we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole

human society perfect, then this Krsna consciousness movement should be

introduced according to the Krsna's instruction, if you want to do it in a

large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking

up some of them, best.

That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said

PARA-UPAKARA. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of

people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve

karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit,

not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this

varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, AND IT IS POSSIBLE and people

will be happy."

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said IT IS POSSIBLE and people will be happy.

[Guest guest]

Janesvara wrote:

> > "One should observe the principles of varna and asrama strictly for the

> > satisfaction of the creator, for it is stated in the Bg by Lord Krsna

that

> > the four orders of the social system... are His creation. They should

act

> > according to the regulative principles of this institution and satisfy

the

> > Lord, just as different parts of the body all engage in the service of

the

> > whole. The whole is the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His

virata-rupa

> > or universal form. The brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are

> > respectively the mouth, arms, abdomen and legs of the universal form of

> > the Lord. So long as they are engaged in the service of the complete

> > whole, their position is secure, otherwise they fall down from their

> > respective positions and become degraded." SB 4.6.44

> >

> > Is this not devotional service Srila Prabhupada is referring to?

"engaged

> > in the service of the complete whole"?

 

 

> But how can we do this in the outside world where there is no

understanding

> of the kind described above? While living in a ISKCON temple or farm

project

> everything seemed so clear, you engaged your work in the project and this

> was considered to be devotional service, but when you are maried and live

on

> your own things seems to bee not so clear anymore, besides chanting,

> offering your food to Krsna or worshiping Him on your privat altar.

 

 

Every single human being is situated in one of the four varnas without

question. No one is outside the effects of the three material modes of

nature, unless he is "liberated"; fully cognizant of his self and Brahman.

Rest assured there is no one presently in ISKCON who is liberated, yet.

 

Thus, everyone can find out his or her varna through study of the scripture,

advice from brahmanas such as astrologers, self introspection, honesty, etc.

The answer can be found out very easily and quickly if one truly wants to

know in order to engage oneself properly. There is no support in the Vedic

system nor Lord Caitanya's program for a "classless" society of devotees.

This is nonsense.

 

"Srila Prabhupada:The tendency in this age of Kali to make a classless

society and not observe the principles of varna and asrama is a

manifestation of an impossible dream." There are many in ISKCON who want to

"just engage in whatever I feel the need or desire to do". This is

concoction without any support from scripture and will bring only chaos and

abuse of citizens rights. This we have seen abundantly in ISKCON and other

societies who refuse to inplement varnasrama.

 

"Srila Prabhupada: Destruction of the social and spiritual orders will not

bring fulfillment of the idea of a classless society."

 

 

 

 

> > "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the

> > proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama.

> > There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One

> > must be situated in the institution of the four varnas and asramas."

> >

> > "It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the

world

> > to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be

> > astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a

> > Krishna conscious society." S.B. 5.1.24

>

> But is ISKCON the world or should it become the world, one may ask?

 

 

"Prabhupada: Yes. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or

sannyasis. No. That is not

possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world

we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole

human society perfect, then this Krsna consciousness movement should be

introduced according to the Krsna's instruction, if you want to do it in a

large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking

up some of them, best.

That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said

PARA-UPAKARA. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of

people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve

karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit,

not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this

varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, AND IT IS POSSIBLE and people

will be happy."

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said IT IS POSSIBLE and people will be happy.