Varnasrama-dharma devotional service

[Guest guest]

On 3.O8.99 Janesvara Prabhu wrote:

 

> Once again your excellent questions are worthy of excellent answers and

> quite frankly I feel very uncomfortable trying to answer them. I am a

> neophyte in varnasrama devotional service. These questions should be given

> the utmost care and consideration. A brahmana would be most suitable to

> answer these inquiries. Perhaps the Prabhus on the conference can suggest

> some brahmanas who are qualified and dedicated to varnasrama to provide >

some answers for you.

> I will only offer my opinions as follows and they, as all of my comments,

> are from my perspective as a ksatriya. Take them with a grain of salt.

 

 

Athough I must say that your answers make a lot of sense to me. If someone

from our learned brahmanas could add something or comment from their

perspective, than this would be indeed a great learning oportunity for me,

and I would appreciate it very much.

Thankyou.

 

 

> > > You will simply produce the opposite effect by this kind of

> > > "preaching".

> >

> > Only in those who are not sincerely interested in establishing Srila

> > Prabhupada's orders regarding varnasrama

 

> But how should they establish anything like varnasrama when they

> themselves don,t understand what Prabhupada meant by this, like we could

> see in Ravindra Svarupa prabhus article?

 

 

Baby steps. We are not interested right now in "establishing" varnasrama. We

first have to recognize it. Then we can take the steps to follow the

methodical program that Srila Prabhupada described in his varnasrama morning

walk conversations in March 1974. Starting varnasrama "colleges" does not

have to mean we open an institution like Harvard or Cornell. We can start

small counseling rooms in EVERY center and just start talking about

varnasrama with EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY. Reading the morning walk

conversations and all other references to varnasrama from Srila Prabhupada.

There are thousands of references. Everything is in the books.

 

We don't have to understand varnasrama on the level of Srila Prabhupada

RIGHT NOW to get started. We DO have to follow his instructions and BEGIN

the program. COMMUNICATION is key.

 

 

> Or no common consensus or understanding...

 

For the society of devotees to begin the program together there must be

leaders who are of one mind on this issue. IF the present leaders are not or

cannot be convinced, then they must be re-engaged in other service. The

citizens HAVE the power to change this.

 

 

> Should one not first try to gain some common understanding in regard what

> varnasrama dharma actualy means, also in regard to that wath we call

> devotional service for Krsna?

 

 

The program for "common understanding" is already there - Srila Prabhupada's

books. They are the ultimate authority. Everything is there. If there are

those who interpret them in such a way as to misdirect the citizens in a

chaotic direction, this is clear evidence that the leaders are unqualified

and either have to change there ways or be re-engaged elsewise. There WILL

be others to take their place if the citizens voice their demands. This is

the right of the citizens.

 

 

> For example Arjuna he was doing devotional service by fighting the battle

> of Kuruksetra for Krsna, using his skill and expertise as a ksatriya

> wariour which he learned at the school of Dronacarya, I guess in the

> present days he would have went to some military academy to learn the art

> of fighting, military strategy and warfare, or would he have come to some

> Iskcon temple in order to learn this art?

 

 

Prabhupada clearly described this function in his varnasrama morning walks.

This training would take place at the varnasrama college. The ksatriya

college can be located practically; village, mountains, forest, etc.

Hunting, fitness, management curriculum, leadership training, etc., are

programs which need certain logistical requirements met.

 

 

> And again only Arjuna and Krsna knew that wath

> he was doing was devotional service and not sense gratification.

 

 

No. Millions of devotees in Hastinapura, Mathura, Dvaraka and other cities

and towns knew clearly that varnasrama performed by devotees is devotional

service.

 

 

> Duryodhana

> was folowing also his ksatriya varna, but was it devotional service?

 

 

No. But he did perform his material duties very well and piously for the

most part. He needed only to add chanting Hare Krsna to his program. He was

envious of Krsna and His pure devotees. On the other hand, devotees like

Arjuna do not just chant and forsake action. That is mayavada or sahajiya.

Krsna works because He has to show the example; "and the whole world

pursues."

 

 

 

> So when is following ones varna inclinations in varnasrama, devotional

> service and when is it sense gratification ?

 

 

When it is in submission to the Lord. Sense gratification is there in

devotees also, but their goal is to conquer sense gratification gradually

and realistically through the institution of varnasrama-dharma. The time it

takes to do this has no bearing on the definition of a person as a devotee.

Krsna sees our millions and millions of lifetimes "away" from Him as a blink

of an eye. ANd when we "return" to Him He says, "Oh, were you gone

somewhere? Welcome back!"

 

Non-devotees go in the opposite direction and try to figure out ways to

continually fulfill sense gratification eternally and not submit to God.

 

 

> And is following ones varna duties only in the Isckon society devotional

> service or can this be done also in the greater society we also belong?

 

 

Varnasrama-dharma or, sanatana-dharma, is truly the only non-sectarian

religion. It can be followed by anyone anywhere using any nomenclature known

to that person. What were those Russian names for Krsna? Kryshen, Vyshen and

Kolyada I believe. A good Russian in Siberia can perform his duty which is

determined naturally by his guna and karma and chant these holy names and

reach the perfection. The name of his varna may be something in Russian but

is the same as brahmana, ksatriya, or manager, soldier, teacher, laborer,

etc. Vedic varnasrama fits all human beings and enhances the human culture

in definitive terms and standards. Like in Bg the qualifications are given

there for ksatriya; sauryam tejo dhritir daksam, etc., heroism, power,

determination, resourcefulness, leadership, etc., same for brahmana, vaisya

and sudras. Krsna gives detailed direction, not just "anything goes". No.

Krsna is methodical and organized.

 

 

 

> What does " need and want varnasrama in their lives immediately" means

> actually to you,

 

 

Occupation. Everyone needs to WORK. This is the nature of the living entity.

It is natural. The occupation must be in accordance with varnasrama in order

to help the person progress toward the perfection of life. A person

pretending to be a brahmana because he was born in a brahmana family or

simply because he wears a thread, but who is actually a different varna

makes no appreciable progress in life or goes the opposite direction. This

Krsna explained to Arjuna carefully and methodically.

 

 

> or should it mean to us, practicaly speaking?

 

 

We must each seek out our natural guna and karma, sva-dharma, and, in this

age especially, chant the holy names of God while we engage ourselves. This

Krsna explained to Arjuna very clearly. And Krsna told Arjuna he would

certainly come to Him; mat-karma-krn mat paramo mad-bhakta sanga varjitah.

And, tasmat sarvesu kalesu mam anushmara yudhya ca, etc. We will go back to

Him.

 

 

> How does Iskcon and its leadership stopp or hinder us from beying active

> in implementing varnasrama in our lifes?

 

 

Not at all if one is capable and determined to take it upon oneself to

engage in ones sva-dharma, varna duty, where ever one is and keep his mind

and intelligence fixed on Him and one's activities dedicated to Him. Where

ever that person is, is Vaikuntha.

 

But practically speaking, it would be a whole helluva lot more fun doing it

with a whole bunch of other people! And, also, some people have a need to be

assisted regularly and comprehensively in learning and practicing varnasrama

devotional service. This means teachers/brahmanas, leaders/managers, etc.

 

 

 

> >This creates the worst effect of all. Thus thousands have fled the chaos.

> >To stay on a burning ship is insanity, especially when the captains have

> >thrown all the fire extinguishers overboard.

>

> Now somehow I cannot follow you anymoore, what do you mean by all this?

 

 

Some devotees are disturbed by strong promotion of varnasrama and think it

has a bad effect on something or other. My point is that by NOT following

varnasrama has the WORST effect on things because it promotes child abuse,

cow abuse, women abuse, innocent disciple abuse, etc.; the things we have

seen proliferate in ISKCON for the last 25 years. We are condemned by most

of society NOT because we have shown the practical way to live according to

natural human nature, but for saying we think we are above all this. The

"holier than everyone" syndrome famous throughout ISKCON. Had we taken the

varnasrama route we would have been promoting hard work for the Lord and had

employment to support ourselves and keep our idle minds engaged.

 

The GBC and other "leaders" of ISKCON were given clear instructions from

Srila Prabhupada to start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the

movement over 25 years ago and have not done a SINGLE one along the specific

lines of his orders, ever. The "ship" of ISKCON is on fire and they spend

all of their time now putting out all the little fires and yet they have

thrown out the best "fire extinguisher" for the cause of the fires -

varnasrama. This is a very poor idea. It will not work. They can on chanting

and chanting all they want to but if people are not divided into their

natural sva-dharma they will continue to chant offensively and remain on

neophyte levels of spiritual realization and not attain to second and first

levels of advancement wherefrom they will never fall down. This is most

apparent with many "senior" disciples who were chanting and doing devotional

activities far in excess of what many others were doing and still did not

attain the faith strong enough to keep them from "falling down".

 

Varnasrama is a scientific institution that guarantees the building of

gradual, strong, incremental but certain faith in God consciousness.

 

 

> > Thousands of Srila Prabhupada's beloved disciples have left ISKCON but

> > they have not necessarily left the Krsna consciousness movement.

 

> What would have been different if Isckon would have followed a varnasrama

> dharma structure wathever that would mean?

> Or in other words followed the orders of Prabhupada in this regard.

 

 

I am not a soothsayer, but we could at least have said we followed Srila

Prabhupada's orders to chant Hare Krsna AND implement varnasrama. Now we

barely have half of the equation and we wonder why there is so much chaos?

We do not have to condemn or stop anything that has been accomplished thus

far in the service of Krsna; chanting, dancing, feasting, etc. But we MUST

add the other high priority item of Srila Prabhupada's mission if we want to

be successful in seeing the Krsna consciousness movement progress.

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that when devotees are appointed high court

judges that is when he will be convinced that the Krsna consciousness

movement is progressing. ISKCON is farther away from this goal now than it

was 25 years ago. Is that progress?

Don't judge it by Janesvara dasa's criticism, judge according to

Bhaktisidhanta's statement. Or will the GBC and others offer yet another

fanciful interpretation of this statement?

 

 

 

> > I am sure there are many very qualified managers amongst the former

> > members of the movement by now. They have been working REAL jobs and

> > supporting THEMSELVES instead of begging from and cheating others for

> > sustenance. And yet the GBC and others will not even consider

> > submissively inviting these mahatmas to help manage the society.

>

> How is this related to implementing varnasrama in Isckon?

> I just try to learn something.

 

 

My feeling is that there are many disciples of Srila Prabhupada and others

who have left ISKCON out of sheer distaste and disillusionment from issues

such as zonal acarya and guru "diseases" of different sorts, along with

child sexual and physical abuse, as well as plain and simple unemployment,

who have since leaving become qualified materially in areas of the four

varnas who could share very valuable information and management expertise

for the benefit of the movement. This would drive the varnasrama "engine".

 

But most that I know are not interested in even being associated in any way

with ISKCON. Prabhupada said one should not associate with a devotee of bad

character. There are plenty of bad characters in ISKCON. To deny it is to

deny children and cows their rights.

 

ys,

Jd

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