How to start varnasrama

[Guest guest]

> > Maybe we should put big signs, NO SUDRAS!.

>

> Maybe. Sudras rally can screw it up, if you let them into

> the temple, and they remain as sudras anyway. No a suitable

> job for them. Just those horrifying brahminical activities.

> Go modifying the temple to their nature.

 

I guess a sudra, if expected to be a brahmin, would have a bit of a problem.

But why put him in anxiety, let brahmins be brahmins, and sudras be sudras,

add the other two, and presto! Problem solved. (Ok not all problems, but its

the right direction).

 

> Anyway. My point was that we forget ourselves, our initial

> ideals, motivations, enthusiasm, courage, readiness on the

> austerity, patience, tolerance... of the time when we made a

> decision to live in the Hare Krsna temple. There were no surprises what to

> be found there, really. And now, we are out, crying, lamenting, full of

> bitterness, full of grudge and anger against

> the authorities, and hankering for a "temple" where we could get

> a job and the life "according to our natural inclinations".

 

Prabhu, Im sorry, its terrible that you feel this way. But dont worry, Srila

Prabhupada has the solution. In my case, the problem I had on Sankirtan, for

years; I thought the problem was simply that I was in Maya (which I was, and

still am). But I never had a grudge. I am not the kind of person to hold

grudges, at least not for long, its just not my nature. I just feel I have a

duty to uphold Srila Prabhupadas instructions, as his follower. Those that

know me personaly know that I am not filled with any kind of bitterness at

all, rather I am full of enthusiasm for Srila Prabhupadas philosophy and

practical ideas, which make me way too optimistic. But yes I am very strong

in condemning anyone who appears to want to ignore Srila Prabhupadas

instructions. I am nothing. When I first read Srila Prabhupadas books, I was

filled with hope and optimism. He has the solutions. They are all I am

interested in.

 

 

> But don't start changing the VAD in the name of VAD. Don't expect that the

> temple is to be reorganized on such a way to accommodate sudras and

> brahmanas together. That will never work out.

 

"Unless they take to Krsna consciousness, they'll not be saved. The

varnasrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere,

wherever we have got our center, a varnasrama college should be

established to train four divisions: one class, brahmana; one class,

ksatriya; one class, vaisya; and one class, sudra. But everyone will be

elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we

have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the sudras. (March

12, 1974. Vrindavana)

 

Oops, how is it that you know so much more than Srila Prabhupada, or is this

beating you on the head with Prabhupada quotes?

 

"So this Krsna consciousness movement

is trying to reestablish daiva-varnasrama, where brahmana, ksatriya,

vaisya, sudra, everyone. Systematic. We are, therefore, proposing to

start a college, varnasrama college. It is proposed." (Bhubaneshwar, Jan

22, 1977)

 

"The other day I was suggesting the governor that "Open varnasrama

college." As we are training a medical practitioner and an engineer or

any particular type of line, similarly, there must be training school and

college where a person or a boy may be educated as a brahmana or as a

ksatriya. It is very simple thing." (Vrindavana, April 24, 1975)

 

Krsna says, "I have made this varnasrama for the benefit of the whole

human society, although I don't belong to any varna, asrama." Krsna has

nothing to do, but to maintain the human society very peaceful, advancing

in spiritual knowledge, this varnasrama is required. Therefore sometimes

I become very eager to start a varnasrama college. We have nothing to do

with varnasrama, we Krsna..., But we want to see that the whole human

society is peaceful. That is our mission. (Los Angeles, June 25, 1975)

 

So these two important things took place in the Kuruksetra. So we must

have a very big temple there, and a varnasrama college. This is my

desire. Krsna's direct instruction, Bhagavad-gita. It should be a

historical. (Los Angeles, June 20, 1975)

 

And then there's a whole morning walk tape entitled "Varnasrama College"

dated March 14, 1974, Vrndavana. Prabhupada talks about it very

extensively there. He says things like, "Gurukula is only for the small

children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they

should be sent to the varnasrama school or college for further developed

training." Another: "Because people have been spoiled all over the world

by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varnasrama college

is required." And another: "Varnasrama college means for grown-up

students. College means for grown-up students."

 

This proves, I think, that Prabhupada wanted a varnasrama college in

every temple.

 

> You want a revolution of the present system. Here it is.

> Only brahmanas to be living in the temple. Next circle for

> ksatriyas. Next for vaisyas. And the fourth circle for sudras.

> No mixing.

 

You should write a book. Why not dilute all of these great ideas of yours,

refuting my texts. Give us the knowledge straight, and those that want to

develop your vision of Varnsrama can do so.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh das wrote on 9.8.99:

 

> > I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this

> > conference?

 

> Because the atmosphere is so inhibiting to the creative intellectual

> process. Any simple idea set forth is almost guarantueed to draw withering

> criticism from someone, so you can't really have a productive, evolving

> conversation. Any simple statement you make you have to be ready to

> immediately vigourously defend. Not a very encouraging atmosphere.

 

Why not seeing this different opinions, comments, ideas, questions, etc.

in a positiv way, as a mean to broaden our understanding and knowledge about

our common cause VARNASRAMA DHARMA, at least I see it in this way, that

varnasrama dharma has very much to do with understanding the principles

behind it, diferences in thinking and willing of the certain varnas,

accepting this differences in our society on the basis of Unity in Diversity

in serving the Lord and the society of His devotees etc.

Or is varnasrama moore or only a matter of doing than of understanding?

 

Here is also a nice comment I found written by a devotee some time ago:

 

"Misunderstandings between devotees can be understood to be like those in a

national legislative assembly. Despite strong disagreements, the central

point is to serve the nation-or in the case of devotees, Krsna.

 

It is not possible for everyone to think uniformly, but it is possible to

find a central interest. For instance, in our Society for Krsna

Consciousness, our central interest is Krsna. People are working in

different ways, but everyone is convinced that he is working to render

service to Krsna. (Dialectic p. 419; Marx)

 

As long as devotees are committed to work together to fulfill the order of

the spiritual master, disagreements about how to execute that mission need

not be taken very seriously. The central point of agreement is that Krsna

is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and that our duty is to serve Him.

Those who are disagreeing could conduct their disagreement better if they

remembered this point: We have far more to agree on than to disagree on. And

what we agree on is more important than what we disagree on.

 

Do not make any artificial discrepancies amongst yourselves because you are

acting on a very responsible business. Perhaps you know that there are many

political parties in a country, but when the country's total responsibility

has to be executed, they become combined. To have some little disagreements

amongst yourselves is not very unnatural because we are all individual

beings. But as we are all working on behalf of Krishna we should always

forget our personal interests and see to the prime cause. Letter to 69-01-21

 

Sometimes we may differ, but Krishna is the center. Just like in Vrindaban

there is Radharani's party and there is Candravali's party. So Krishna is

the center of both parties. So even there there is competition between the

parties, but they coincide in Krishna. Letter to: Sri Govinda, 6 December,

1974

 

I think you should not be disturbed by minor disagreement... If there is any

point of judgment, you can refer to me. I am always at your service. So long

we are individual souls, there must be disagreement also, because that is

the symptom of individuality. But when such an individual is surrendered

unto Krishna, there should not be any disagreement. There cannot be any

disagreement in the discharge of duties in Krishna Consciousness. Letter to:

Aniruddha, 30 May, 1968

 

Among Vaisnavas there may be some difference of opinion due to everyone's

personal identity, but despite all personal differences, the cult of Krsna

consciousness must go on. SB 4.28.31 purport

 

Diversity is not harmful if there is a strong sense of unity, but diversity

without unity is destructive. The point of unity in ISKCON is the desire to

serve Srila Prabhupada cooperatively, as he wanted. The frailties of

devotees struggling on the devotional path may sometimes manifest as

quarrels and disagreements. But whatever may go on in ISKCON, as long as the

devotees remain united in Srila Prabhupada's mission, and continue the

essential activities of chanting, dancing, feasting and preaching, nothing

can be so bad that it cannot be rectified.

 

Quarrels between devotees may be likened to family quarrels, in which, even

if the exchanges are severe, everyone still goes on together. The underlying

bonds of unity are so deep that they can quarrel severely without it

affecting their basic commitment to each other.

 

Our Society is like one big family and our relationships should be based on

love and trust. We must give up the fighting spirit and use our intelligence

to push ahead. Letter to: Upendra, 6 August, 1970

 

Because we are all individuals sometimes there is disagreement between

devotees. When non-devotees quarrel they cannot stop and end up killing each

other. But the devotees' disagreement does not last long because they patch

it up for Krsna's sake, because they are all working for the same

end-Krsna's service. Letter to: Bhumata, 10 March, 1973

 

Although there may be some difficulties within our Society, these things are

not very important. What is important is that we should simply fix our mind

on Krishna's Lotus Feet. This is His instruction in the Bhagavad-gita. So we

associate with one-another so that we can assist each other in hearing and

chanting about Krishna. That is the purpose of our Society. This you will

not find in the materialistic society where all hearing and chanting is

simply concerned with sense gratification. Letter to: Nrhari, 22 November,

1974

 

Material nature means dissension and disagreement, especially in this Kali

yuga. But for this Krsna consciousness movement its success will depend on

agreement, even though there are varieties of engagements... In the material

world there are varieties, but there is no agreement. In the spiritual world

there are varieties, but there is agreement. That is the difference. The

materialist, without being able to adjust the varieties and the

disagreements, makes everything zero. They cannot come into agreement with

varieties. But if we keep Krsna in the center, then there will be agreement

in varieties. This is called unity in diversity. Letter, 73-10-18

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote that disagreement between devotees need not to be

anything to worry about, for they are all spiritual.

 

Disunity between individual souls is so strong within this material world

that even in a society of Kåñëa consciousness, members sometimes appear

disunited due to their having different opinions and leaning toward material

things. Actually, in Kåñëa consciousness there cannot be two opinions. There

is only one goal: to serve Kåñëa to one's best ability. If there is some

disagreement over service, such disagreement is to be taken as spiritual.

Those who are actually engaged in the service of the Supreme Personality of

Godhead cannot be disunited in any circumstance. SB 4.30.8 purport

 

Disputes between devotees that are genuinely based on how best to serve guru

and Krsna are spiritual, even though they may generate strong feelings and

give rise to sharp words. An example of a purely spiritual conflict is the

dispute that arose in Vrindaban in October 1977 when Srila Prabhupada asked

to be taken to Govardhana. One group of disciples was determined not to let

Srila Prabhupada go, fearing that Srila Prabhupada's health was too poor to

survive such exertion. Other disciples insisted that Srila Prabhupada's

order must be followed regardless of the consequences. (C.f. Srila

Prabhupada Lilamrita Vol.6. pg. 417)

 

However, some issues need thorough discussion so that both sides can

understand each other's viewpoint.

 

If there is difficulty, we should discuss among ourselves and clear it, but

there must be thorough discussion and understanding. 720405SB.MEL

 

And in discussion devotees should try to be sympathetic, even if there is

strong disagreement.

 

Provocation and misunderstanding may remain between one man and another. But

our staunch faith in Krishna Consciousness may not allow any material

disruption. Please therefore try to be sympathetic with any person even if

they differ. The only qualification we have to scrutinize is if one is

acting in Krishna Consciousness as far as one is able to do it. Letter to:

Brahmananda, 18 November, 1967

 

Disagreements between devotees are best kept on the spiritual platform, and

not allowed to degrade into quarrel.

 

The members of the United Nations assemble together, but their hearts are

not clean. They meet together with unclean hearts. Therefore there is no

solution, whereas those who are meeting on the platform of Krsna

consciousness, they are meeting with cleansed hearts. That is the

difference. Ceto-darpana-marjanam. Therefore that unity is very solid and

sound. And with unclean hearts, if we meet, officially, there is no

possibility of unity. 721108ND.VRN

 

Of course, not all disagreements between devotees are purely spiritual.

When devotees quarrel publicly, unnecessarily, repeatedly and harshly,

maintain bad feelings, foment politics, or unnecessarily create and

exacerbate friction between themselves, then it is to be understood that

Kali has entered. Disputes born of the modes of passion and ignorance are

characterized by false pride, ambition, and ultimately frustration. They

are caused by unfulfilled lust, envy, overly-critical attitudes, and a

rebellious spirit. Discord between devotees based on these unsaintly

qualities is most undesirable and is certainly not spiritual.

 

Even a disagreement about how to serve Krsna or about philosophical issues

can become mundane if it becomes a prestige issue, that is if either party

loses the transcendental vision, and becomes envious of the other party and

attached to "winning" at any cost. Srila Prabhupada told the story of the

sons who quarreled over how to massage their father. Losing their sense

along with their temper, they started to beat each other and their father

also!

 

Altercation between devotees leaves a "scar on the heart," and disturbs our

sadhana and our whole consciousness (unless we are hardhearted). Such

fighting also saps the whole spirit and preaching efforts of the movement.

 

Now all my disciples must work combinedly and with cooperation to spread

this Sankirtana Movement. If you cannot work together then my work is

stopped up. Letter to: Upendra, 6 August, 1970

 

Sometimes quarrels are due to misunderstandings. They can come from

misjudging others' actions or intentions, incorrectly hearing what others

have said, or by receiving wrong information about others. It is prudent,

therefore, if we feel we have been slighted, not to jump too quickly to

conclusions about other people's motives.

 

We should also keep in mind that if someone acts or speaks harshly towards

us, it may not be with ill intentions. He may be under strain. Even the

most pious king Yudhisthira, having been humiliated by Karna after sixteen

days of terrible battle, rebuked Arjuna with soul cutting insults. Arjuna

then prepared to kill Yudhisthira, but Krsna appeased them both and brought

out their natural love for each other.

 

If not rectified, misunderstandings can lead to serious rifts that can

continue over many years and spoil our movement.

 

If we fight amongst ourselves, even if we belong to the family of Krsna, we

are ruined. 740603SB.GEN

 

Basically, devotees are friends of each other, not enemies. They should be

able to make up their differences, tolerating the wrongs they may have done

to each other, as a father tolerates the impudence of his son, a friend

tolerates the impertinence of a friend, or a wife tolerates the familiarity

of her partner. (c.f. Bg 11.44)

 

Even though people sometimes become angry and malicious toward one another,

because of their being Kåñëa conscious such rivalry, competition and envy

can be adjusted without difficulty. SB 4.20.18 purport

 

Therefore if a dispute does take place, it should be resolved, not allowed

to simmer for years. When devotees have a serious disagreement, it is best

they discuss it in the presence of a neutral party whom they both respect.

Sanatana Goswami used to mediate disputes between the Brijbasis, who would

accept his judgment as final."

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this

> > conference?

> >

> > YS

>

> Because the atmosphere is so inhibiting to the creative intellectual

> process. Any simple idea set forth is almost guarantueed to draw withering

> criticism from someone, so you can't really have a productive, evolving

> conversation. Any simple statement you make you have to be ready to

> immediately vigourously defend. Not a very encouraging atmosphere.

 

Thats it in a nutshell. I am really torn by this to tell you the truth. On

one side there is the principle that adversity makes us grow. That the

presence of discomfort, the struggle, if you like, can bring out the best. I

like the idea of a free 'anarchistic' forum. What I dont like is having to

spell out every single nuance in a discusion and try cover all the bases, in

each and every text. Sometimes I wonder if the spats I have with Mahanidhi

prabhu are often agravated by mutual misunderstanding of the english we are

using.

 

But at the same time, it stifles progress. Like you say, a timid soul, who

might have so much to offer otherwise, may not venture into a den filled

with masters of sarcasm, and withering wit. its just intimidating.

 

I agree also that I am way too predjudiced to moderate. But I do think that

there needs to be a forum that is moderated, so everyone can get a chance to

contribute positively, wihout having to defend points which the majority may

all agree on anyway.

 

Maybe we should do that on 'practical varnasrama' and forget the idea of

leaving it only for utilitarian discussions, wht do you think?

 

YS