How to start varnasrama

[Guest guest]

> Exactly. We continue in the same old paradigm, even though we are losing

> people through lack of respect for their natures, and this is causing the

> movement to dissipate.

>

> Honestly, people complain that we are complaining, but there is so much

> injustice, it is our duty to cry out until we are heard. The way we are

> doing things in this society today, is NOT the way Srila Prabhupada wanted

> it. We must speak out, until things are changed.

 

I have been following the Varnashrama conference somewhat and really

do

appreciate all of your efforts to get the GBC's

attention to implement varnashram.

I don't won't to sound negative but I am really pessamistic about

anything

happening in this regard.

Is it really productive to keep on complaining about the fact that

they

haven't done anything about Varnashram for the past

25 years ?

Will complaining about the GBC not implementing Varnashram produce

positive

results anyway? This method doesn't seem

to be working at present

 

I have heard devotees say that it is good that the GBC has not

introduced

Varnashram into ISKCON because if they did it

would be absolute chaos anyway. Better leave the implementation of

Varnashram

to those who are expert and sincere in this

regard if we want positive results.

 

My humble suggestion to those devotees who are really serious and

convinced

about Varanashrama is that we should go

ahead and do it ourselves. We are not children anymore. We do not

have to

depend on the GBC if we do not wish to. We

can follow the GBC and ISKCON laws, but there is no need to be so

completly

dependent on them that we cannot use our

own initiative. Many of us have businesses which are not dependent on

the

GBC.

 

If we just manage to get one sucessful pilot project off the ground

within

the next few years the rest of the ISKCON world

will want to follow suit. One Varnashram College sucessfully run and

bingo

everyone will be converting our temples into

Varnashrama colleges for devotees to learn spiritual practices and

be

engaged and trained according to their varna.

 

If anyone is interested in a pilot project then please let me know. I

have

very little knowledge about agriculture, but have

financial resources and deep commitment to Srila Prabhupada's

instructions.

How many devotees out there are willing to

re-locate so we can all pool our talents in making a successful

project for

the pleasure of our beloved Srila Prabhupada ?

 

YS

Sumitra devi dasi

 

PS Please moderate this conference so that we can get some practical

results

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this conference?

>

> YS

 

Because the atmosphere is so inhibiting to the creative intellectual process.

Any simple idea set forth is almost guarantueed to draw withering criticism

from

someone, so you can't really have a productive, evolving conversation. Any

simple statement you make you have to be ready to immediately vigourously

defend. Not a very encouraging atmosphere.

[Guest guest]

If anyone is interested in a pilot project then please let me know. I

have

very little knowledge about agriculture, but have

financial resources and deep commitment to Srila Prabhupada's

instructions.

How many devotees out there are willing to

re-locate so we can all pool our talents in making a successful

project for

the pleasure of our beloved Srila Prabhupada ?

 

YS

Sumitra devi dasi

 

Let me make a suggestion that you examine already existing projects. Although

none may be seen to be currently highly successful , it will probably be

easier

to enhance one than to start from scratch.

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh das wrote on 9.8.99:

 

> > I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this

> > conference?

 

> Because the atmosphere is so inhibiting to the creative intellectual

> process. Any simple idea set forth is almost guarantueed to draw withering

> criticism from someone, so you can't really have a productive, evolving

> conversation. Any simple statement you make you have to be ready to

> immediately vigourously defend. Not a very encouraging atmosphere.

 

Why not seeing this different opinions, comments, ideas, questions, etc.

in a positiv way, as a mean to broaden our understanding and knowledge about

our common cause VARNASRAMA DHARMA, at least I see it in this way, that

varnasrama dharma has very much to do with understanding the principles

behind it, diferences in thinking and willing of the certain varnas,

accepting this differences in our society on the basis of Unity in Diversity

in serving the Lord and the society of His devotees etc.

Or is varnasrama moore or only a matter of doing than of understanding?

 

Here is also a nice comment I found written by a devotee some time ago:

 

"Misunderstandings between devotees can be understood to be like those in a

national legislative assembly. Despite strong disagreements, the central

point is to serve the nation-or in the case of devotees, Krsna.

 

It is not possible for everyone to think uniformly, but it is possible to

find a central interest. For instance, in our Society for Krsna

Consciousness, our central interest is Krsna. People are working in

different ways, but everyone is convinced that he is working to render

service to Krsna. (Dialectic p. 419; Marx)

 

As long as devotees are committed to work together to fulfill the order of

the spiritual master, disagreements about how to execute that mission need

not be taken very seriously. The central point of agreement is that Krsna

is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and that our duty is to serve Him.

Those who are disagreeing could conduct their disagreement better if they

remembered this point: We have far more to agree on than to disagree on. And

what we agree on is more important than what we disagree on.

 

Do not make any artificial discrepancies amongst yourselves because you are

acting on a very responsible business. Perhaps you know that there are many

political parties in a country, but when the country's total responsibility

has to be executed, they become combined. To have some little disagreements

amongst yourselves is not very unnatural because we are all individual

beings. But as we are all working on behalf of Krishna we should always

forget our personal interests and see to the prime cause. Letter to 69-01-21

 

Sometimes we may differ, but Krishna is the center. Just like in Vrindaban

there is Radharani's party and there is Candravali's party. So Krishna is

the center of both parties. So even there there is competition between the

parties, but they coincide in Krishna. Letter to: Sri Govinda, 6 December,

1974

 

I think you should not be disturbed by minor disagreement... If there is any

point of judgment, you can refer to me. I am always at your service. So long

we are individual souls, there must be disagreement also, because that is

the symptom of individuality. But when such an individual is surrendered

unto Krishna, there should not be any disagreement. There cannot be any

disagreement in the discharge of duties in Krishna Consciousness. Letter to:

Aniruddha, 30 May, 1968

 

Among Vaisnavas there may be some difference of opinion due to everyone's

personal identity, but despite all personal differences, the cult of Krsna

consciousness must go on. SB 4.28.31 purport

 

Diversity is not harmful if there is a strong sense of unity, but diversity

without unity is destructive. The point of unity in ISKCON is the desire to

serve Srila Prabhupada cooperatively, as he wanted. The frailties of

devotees struggling on the devotional path may sometimes manifest as

quarrels and disagreements. But whatever may go on in ISKCON, as long as the

devotees remain united in Srila Prabhupada's mission, and continue the

essential activities of chanting, dancing, feasting and preaching, nothing

can be so bad that it cannot be rectified.

 

Quarrels between devotees may be likened to family quarrels, in which, even

if the exchanges are severe, everyone still goes on together. The underlying

bonds of unity are so deep that they can quarrel severely without it

affecting their basic commitment to each other.

 

Our Society is like one big family and our relationships should be based on

love and trust. We must give up the fighting spirit and use our intelligence

to push ahead. Letter to: Upendra, 6 August, 1970

 

Because we are all individuals sometimes there is disagreement between

devotees. When non-devotees quarrel they cannot stop and end up killing each

other. But the devotees' disagreement does not last long because they patch

it up for Krsna's sake, because they are all working for the same

end-Krsna's service. Letter to: Bhumata, 10 March, 1973

 

Although there may be some difficulties within our Society, these things are

not very important. What is important is that we should simply fix our mind

on Krishna's Lotus Feet. This is His instruction in the Bhagavad-gita. So we

associate with one-another so that we can assist each other in hearing and

chanting about Krishna. That is the purpose of our Society. This you will

not find in the materialistic society where all hearing and chanting is

simply concerned with sense gratification. Letter to: Nrhari, 22 November,

1974

 

Material nature means dissension and disagreement, especially in this Kali

yuga. But for this Krsna consciousness movement its success will depend on

agreement, even though there are varieties of engagements... In the material

world there are varieties, but there is no agreement. In the spiritual world

there are varieties, but there is agreement. That is the difference. The

materialist, without being able to adjust the varieties and the

disagreements, makes everything zero. They cannot come into agreement with

varieties. But if we keep Krsna in the center, then there will be agreement

in varieties. This is called unity in diversity. Letter, 73-10-18

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote that disagreement between devotees need not to be

anything to worry about, for they are all spiritual.

 

Disunity between individual souls is so strong within this material world

that even in a society of Kåñëa consciousness, members sometimes appear

disunited due to their having different opinions and leaning toward material

things. Actually, in Kåñëa consciousness there cannot be two opinions. There

is only one goal: to serve Kåñëa to one's best ability. If there is some

disagreement over service, such disagreement is to be taken as spiritual.

Those who are actually engaged in the service of the Supreme Personality of

Godhead cannot be disunited in any circumstance. SB 4.30.8 purport

 

Disputes between devotees that are genuinely based on how best to serve guru

and Krsna are spiritual, even though they may generate strong feelings and

give rise to sharp words. An example of a purely spiritual conflict is the

dispute that arose in Vrindaban in October 1977 when Srila Prabhupada asked

to be taken to Govardhana. One group of disciples was determined not to let

Srila Prabhupada go, fearing that Srila Prabhupada's health was too poor to

survive such exertion. Other disciples insisted that Srila Prabhupada's

order must be followed regardless of the consequences. (C.f. Srila

Prabhupada Lilamrita Vol.6. pg. 417)

 

However, some issues need thorough discussion so that both sides can

understand each other's viewpoint.

 

If there is difficulty, we should discuss among ourselves and clear it, but

there must be thorough discussion and understanding. 720405SB.MEL

 

And in discussion devotees should try to be sympathetic, even if there is

strong disagreement.

 

Provocation and misunderstanding may remain between one man and another. But

our staunch faith in Krishna Consciousness may not allow any material

disruption. Please therefore try to be sympathetic with any person even if

they differ. The only qualification we have to scrutinize is if one is

acting in Krishna Consciousness as far as one is able to do it. Letter to:

Brahmananda, 18 November, 1967

 

Disagreements between devotees are best kept on the spiritual platform, and

not allowed to degrade into quarrel.

 

The members of the United Nations assemble together, but their hearts are

not clean. They meet together with unclean hearts. Therefore there is no

solution, whereas those who are meeting on the platform of Krsna

consciousness, they are meeting with cleansed hearts. That is the

difference. Ceto-darpana-marjanam. Therefore that unity is very solid and

sound. And with unclean hearts, if we meet, officially, there is no

possibility of unity. 721108ND.VRN

 

Of course, not all disagreements between devotees are purely spiritual.

When devotees quarrel publicly, unnecessarily, repeatedly and harshly,

maintain bad feelings, foment politics, or unnecessarily create and

exacerbate friction between themselves, then it is to be understood that

Kali has entered. Disputes born of the modes of passion and ignorance are

characterized by false pride, ambition, and ultimately frustration. They

are caused by unfulfilled lust, envy, overly-critical attitudes, and a

rebellious spirit. Discord between devotees based on these unsaintly

qualities is most undesirable and is certainly not spiritual.

 

Even a disagreement about how to serve Krsna or about philosophical issues

can become mundane if it becomes a prestige issue, that is if either party

loses the transcendental vision, and becomes envious of the other party and

attached to "winning" at any cost. Srila Prabhupada told the story of the

sons who quarreled over how to massage their father. Losing their sense

along with their temper, they started to beat each other and their father

also!

 

Altercation between devotees leaves a "scar on the heart," and disturbs our

sadhana and our whole consciousness (unless we are hardhearted). Such

fighting also saps the whole spirit and preaching efforts of the movement.

 

Now all my disciples must work combinedly and with cooperation to spread

this Sankirtana Movement. If you cannot work together then my work is

stopped up. Letter to: Upendra, 6 August, 1970

 

Sometimes quarrels are due to misunderstandings. They can come from

misjudging others' actions or intentions, incorrectly hearing what others

have said, or by receiving wrong information about others. It is prudent,

therefore, if we feel we have been slighted, not to jump too quickly to

conclusions about other people's motives.

 

We should also keep in mind that if someone acts or speaks harshly towards

us, it may not be with ill intentions. He may be under strain. Even the

most pious king Yudhisthira, having been humiliated by Karna after sixteen

days of terrible battle, rebuked Arjuna with soul cutting insults. Arjuna

then prepared to kill Yudhisthira, but Krsna appeased them both and brought

out their natural love for each other.

 

If not rectified, misunderstandings can lead to serious rifts that can

continue over many years and spoil our movement.

 

If we fight amongst ourselves, even if we belong to the family of Krsna, we

are ruined. 740603SB.GEN

 

Basically, devotees are friends of each other, not enemies. They should be

able to make up their differences, tolerating the wrongs they may have done

to each other, as a father tolerates the impudence of his son, a friend

tolerates the impertinence of a friend, or a wife tolerates the familiarity

of her partner. (c.f. Bg 11.44)

 

Even though people sometimes become angry and malicious toward one another,

because of their being Kåñëa conscious such rivalry, competition and envy

can be adjusted without difficulty. SB 4.20.18 purport

 

Therefore if a dispute does take place, it should be resolved, not allowed

to simmer for years. When devotees have a serious disagreement, it is best

they discuss it in the presence of a neutral party whom they both respect.

Sanatana Goswami used to mediate disputes between the Brijbasis, who would

accept his judgment as final."

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this

> > conference?

> >

> > YS

>

> Because the atmosphere is so inhibiting to the creative intellectual

> process. Any simple idea set forth is almost guarantueed to draw withering

> criticism from someone, so you can't really have a productive, evolving

> conversation. Any simple statement you make you have to be ready to

> immediately vigourously defend. Not a very encouraging atmosphere.

 

Thats it in a nutshell. I am really torn by this to tell you the truth. On

one side there is the principle that adversity makes us grow. That the

presence of discomfort, the struggle, if you like, can bring out the best. I

like the idea of a free 'anarchistic' forum. What I dont like is having to

spell out every single nuance in a discusion and try cover all the bases, in

each and every text. Sometimes I wonder if the spats I have with Mahanidhi

prabhu are often agravated by mutual misunderstanding of the english we are

using.

 

But at the same time, it stifles progress. Like you say, a timid soul, who

might have so much to offer otherwise, may not venture into a den filled

with masters of sarcasm, and withering wit. its just intimidating.

 

I agree also that I am way too predjudiced to moderate. But I do think that

there needs to be a forum that is moderated, so everyone can get a chance to

contribute positively, wihout having to defend points which the majority may

all agree on anyway.

 

Maybe we should do that on 'practical varnasrama' and forget the idea of

leaving it only for utilitarian discussions, wht do you think?

 

YS

[Guest guest]

> Any simple statement you make you have to be ready to

> > immediately vigourously defend. Not a very encouraging atmosphere.

 

One practical sollution could be to try to be a bit deteached

from own statements and participation is these discussions. Thus

the problem of the need for a vigourous defence would be instantly

solved.

 

 

>

> But at the same time, it stifles progress. Like you say, a timid soul, who

> might have so much to offer otherwise, may not venture into a den filled

> with masters of sarcasm, and withering wit. its just intimidating.

 

 

Since I am convinced this criticism of having the obstacle in the

progress of the conference you are directing towards me and not

towards Janesvara, Madhava Gosh, Harsi, Samba (that means, I am

singled out), let us do an experiment: I'll pull out for a month,

and we see how much the progress in implementing VAD via this forum

will be boosted up.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

>

> Since I am convinced this criticism of having the obstacle in the progress

> of the conference you are directing towards me and not towards Janesvara,

> Madhava Gosh, Harsi, Samba (that means, I am

> singled out), let us do an experiment: I'll pull out for a month, and we

> see how much the progress in implementing VAD via this forum will be

> boosted up.

 

> - mnd

 

No prabhu please dont do that, don,t let me alone, your contributions are

sometime a little far out in term of exprising yourself but you are on a

good way to refine your writing. Youe knowledge is needed.

 

Genuine ksatriyas never leave the "battlefield"...

 

Ys, Harsi das

[Guest guest]

> If anyone is interested in a pilot project then please let me know. I have

> very little knowledge about agriculture, but have

> financial resources and deep commitment to Srila Prabhupada's

> instructions.

> How many devotees out there are willing to

> re-locate so we can all pool our talents in making a successful project

> for the pleasure of our beloved Srila Prabhupada ?

>

> YS

> Sumitra devi dasi

>

> Let me make a suggestion that you examine already existing projects.

> Although none may be seen to be currently highly successful , it will

> probably be easier to enhance one than to start from scratch.

 

 

Perhaps a list of existing projects would be helpful to those wanting to

join or start to do something practical. This list could include successes

and lessons learned as well as short and long term goals.

 

aspiring to be a servant,

bhaktin bev

[Guest guest]

On 07 Aug 1999, Sumitra dd wrote:

 

..

>

> My humble suggestion to those devotees who are really serious and

> convinced

> about Varanashrama is that we should go ahead and do it ourselves. We are

not children anymore. We do not have to depend on the GBC if we do not wish

to. We can follow the GBC and ISKCON laws, but there is no need to be so

completly dependent on them that we cannot use ourown initiative. Many of us

have businesses which are not dependent on

> the GBC.

>

 

 

Yes, exactly. VAD will never be established as long as we maintain a

Cinderalla complex where we expect our fairly god-mother to do it all for us.

 

 

 

> If we just manage to get one sucessful pilot project off the ground

> within the next few years the rest of the ISKCON world will want to follow

suit. One Varnashram College sucessfully run and bingo

> everyone will be converting our temples into Varnashrama colleges for

devotees to learn spiritual practices and

> be engaged and trained according to their varna.

>

 

 

Even if it is a failure, what is the loss? It will simply become a pillar for

future success. There is no failure in KC.

 

 

> PS Please moderate this conference so that we can get some practical

> results

 

 

There is also Samba's 'Practial VAD' conference if you feel such a discussion

requires some direct guidance.

 

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

"COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2540848 from COM]

>

> Madhava Gosh das wrote on 9.8.99:

>

> > > I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this

> > > conference?

>

> > Because the atmosphere is so inhibiting to the creative intellectual

> > process. Any simple idea set forth is almost guarantueed to draw withering

> > criticism from someone, so you can't really have a productive, evolving

> > conversation. Any simple statement you make you have to be ready to

> > immediately vigourously defend. Not a very encouraging atmosphere.

>

> Why not seeing this different opinions, comments, ideas, questions, etc.

> in a positiv way, as a mean to broaden our understanding and knowledge about

> our common cause

 

Yes, it is not the difference of opinion , or the right to express them that

is the problem , the problem is the WAY in which it is done, which the verbal

combatants taking very strong positions that there is only one right way, and

then using ad hominem attacks on anyone disagreeing. As you quoted

 

>

>

> Provocation and misunderstanding may remain between one man and another. But

> our staunch faith in Krishna Consciousness may not allow any material

> disruption. Please therefore try to be sympathetic with any person even if

> they differ. The only qualification we have to scrutinize is if one is

> acting in Krishna Consciousness as far as one is able to do it. Letter to:

> Brahmananda, 18 November, 1967

>

> Disagreements between devotees are best kept on the spiritual platform, and

> not allowed to degrade into quarrel.

>

 

Let me emphasis the "sympathetic". That seems to be lacking.

 

>

> The members of the United Nations assemble together, but their hearts are

> not clean. They meet together with unclean hearts. Therefore there is no

> solution, whereas those who are meeting on the platform of Krsna

> consciousness, they are meeting with cleansed hearts. That is the

> difference. Ceto-darpana-marjanam. Therefore that unity is very solid and

> sound. And with unclean hearts, if we meet, officially, there is no

> possibility of unity. 721108ND.VRN

>

> Of course, not all disagreements between devotees are purely spiritual.

> When devotees quarrel publicly, unnecessarily, repeatedly and harshly,

> maintain bad feelings, foment politics, or unnecessarily create and

> exacerbate friction between themselves, then it is to be understood that

> Kali has entered. Disputes born of the modes of passion and ignorance are

> characterized by false pride, ambition, and ultimately frustration. They

> are caused by unfulfilled lust, envy, overly-critical attitudes, and a

> rebellious spirit. Discord between devotees based on these unsaintly

> qualities is most undesirable and is certainly not spiritual.

>

> Even a disagreement about how to serve Krsna or about philosophical issues

> can become mundane if it becomes a prestige issue, that is if either party

> loses the transcendental vision, and becomes envious of the other party and

> attached to "winning" at any cost. Srila Prabhupada told the story of the

> sons who quarreled over how to massage their father. Losing their sense

> along with their temper, they started to beat each other and their father

> also!

>

> Altercation between devotees leaves a "scar on the heart," and disturbs our

> sadhana and our whole consciousness (unless we are hardhearted). Such

> fighting also saps the whole spirit and preaching efforts of the movement.

>

> Now all my disciples must work combinedly and with cooperation to spread

> this Sankirtana Movement. If you cannot work together then my work is

> stopped up. Letter to: Upendra, 6 August, 1970

>

> Sometimes quarrels are due to misunderstandings. They can come from

> misjudging others' actions or intentions, incorrectly hearing what others

> have said, or by receiving wrong information about others. It is prudent,

> therefore, if we feel we have been slighted, not to jump too quickly to

> conclusions about other people's motives.

>

> We should also keep in mind that if someone acts or speaks harshly towards

> us, it may not be with ill intentions. He may be under strain. Even the

> most pious king Yudhisthira, having been humiliated by Karna after sixteen

> days of terrible battle, rebuked Arjuna with soul cutting insults. Arjuna

> then prepared to kill Yudhisthira, but Krsna appeased them both and brought

> out their natural love for each other.

>

> If not rectified, misunderstandings can lead to serious rifts that can

> continue over many years and spoil our movement.

>

> If we fight amongst ourselves, even if we belong to the family of Krsna, we

> are ruined. 740603SB.GEN

>

> Basically, devotees are friends of each other, not enemies. They should be

> able to make up their differences, tolerating the wrongs they may have done

> to each other, as a father tolerates the impudence of his son, a friend

> tolerates the impertinence of a friend, or a wife tolerates the familiarity

> of her partner. (c.f. Bg 11.44)

>

> Even though people sometimes become angry and malicious toward one another,

> because of their being Kåñëa conscious such rivalry, competition and envy

> can be adjusted without difficulty. SB 4.20.18 purport

>

> Therefore if a dispute does take place, it should be resolved, not allowed

> to simmer for years. When devotees have a serious disagreement, it is best

> they discuss it in the presence of a neutral party whom they both respect.

> Sanatana Goswami used to mediate disputes between the Brijbasis, who would

> accept his judgment as final."

[Guest guest]

>

> Since I am convinced this criticism of having the obstacle in the

> progress of the conference you are directing towards me and not

> towards Janesvara, Madhava Gosh, Harsi, Samba (that means, I am

> singled out), let us do an experiment: I'll pull out for a month,

> and we see how much the progress in implementing VAD via this forum

> will be boosted up.

>

> - mnd

 

Well , if the shoe fits wear it, but I personally was making a generic comment

about the mood in general, not directing it solely at you.

 

How about this for an experiment - for a month, only respond psoitively to

things you agree with instead of negatively to things you disagree with. Think

of it as an austerity.

[Guest guest]

>

> Perhaps a list of existing projects would be helpful to those wanting to

> join or start to do something practical. This list could include successes

> and lessons learned as well as short and long term goals.

>

> aspiring to be a servant,

> bhaktin bev

 

Now that is a good idea. IT could be a list devotees wanting to support

projects or join projects could shop from. A practical thing to actually work

on together online.

[Guest guest]

"COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2543446 from COM]

>

> > Tomar, my man-eating viscous 25lb Welsh Terrier ninja attack dog is

> > training herself to become a ksatriya. Look out Janesh, you've been

> > warned!

>

> Sticky (as in viscous) or vicious? Either way she sounds scary!

 

Viscuos attack dog? I'm ROFLMAO. Sticks to you and licks you to death?

[Guest guest]

On 10 Aug 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

>

> As far as I can see this falls exactly in line with Srila Prabhupadas

> deisres, except that he goes further when he says that the other varnic

> teaching should also be done in our centers.

>

 

 

My only complaint here is what I pereive as a lack of practical, tangeable

experience. We are gradually gaining such experience, often painfully so, but

we still have so far to go. Sometimes it sounds as if we are still in Little

League baseball thinking we are on the verge of making the Majors.

 

>

> You can call their building or compound ISKCON if you like, but the name,

'International SOCIETY for Krsna Counsciousness, can and does seem to imply a

society, made up of all groups, to why restrict the name to the brahmins only?

>

 

 

No, ISKCON isn't restricted to any one group, but as a society, our thrust is

education, which is considered a brahminical type occupation. Just as the

thrust of a ksatriya institution would be diplomacy and such, and a vaisya

instituion would be business and agriculture, and a sudra institution might be

the various skilled crafts, a brahminical institution should focus on

education and spiritual pursuits. But at no time do any of the varna's act

independently of the others -- in a healthy society they all work together.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 10 Aug 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> >

> >

> > Everyone needs to find a way to serve Krsna according to his natural

> > inclinations. None-the-less, without promoting a healthy brahminical

> > sub-culture, the larger VAD society will suffer immeasurably.

>

> Yes, if the brahmans are fed by the fruits of karmi culture, we could

expect that VAD would suffer. And if fed by fruits of a devotee culture, it

would flourish.

>

>

 

 

 

Therefore in a healthy, mature VAD culture, the various human engagements work

cooperately for the benefit of the entire society.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 10 Aug 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> >

> > > Tomar, my man-eating viscous 25lb Welsh Terrier ninja attack dog is

training herself to become a ksatriya. Look out Janesh, you've been

> > > warned!

> >

> > Sticky (as in viscous) or vicious? Either way she sounds scary!

>

> Viscuos attack dog? I'm ROFLMAO. Sticks to you and licks you to death?

>

>

 

 

Frankly, I can't spell or type English worth a darn, but it actually makes

more sense the way it ended up in print. Must be some kind of Krsnonian slip!

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

> Yes, it is not the difference of opinion , or the right to express them

that is the problem , the problem is the WAY in which it is done, which the

verbal combatants taking very strong positions that there is only one right

way, and then using ad hominem attacks on anyone disagreeing....

>

 

 

 

I sometimes think some of our devotees need to learn the art of how to tell

each other what jerks they think they are while keeping a pleasant smile on

their face. Now that's a course I would propose we need to institute in our

VAD Universtities!

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 10 Aug 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

>

> How about this for an experiment - for a month, only respond psoitively to

things you agree with instead of negatively to things you disagree with.

Think of it as an austerity.

>

>

 

 

We can also agree to disagree! Now I could agree to that!

 

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > Tomar, my man-eating viscous 25lb Welsh Terrier ninja attack dog is

training herself to become a ksatriya. Look out Janesh, you've been warned!

> > >

 

> > Sticky (as in viscous) or vicious? Either way she sounds scary!

>

> Viscuos attack dog? I'm ROFLMAO. Sticks to you and licks you to death?

>

 

 

 

I'm a warning ya, Janesh, and for the last time. If you dare show your face in

Alachua, ya better be packing a box of handi-wipes.

 

 

 

Sthita-dhi @ Tomar 'Ninja lips' Kukura

[Guest guest]

>

> Well , if the shoe fits wear it, but I personally was making a generic

> comment about the mood in general, not directing it solely at you.

 

OK. I am relieved now. Me funny fellow thought to play a Cinderella

here.

 

 

> How about this for an experiment - for a month, only respond psoitively

> to things you agree with instead of negatively to things you disagree

> with. Think of it as an austerity.

 

Just see, you give to people your pinky, and they grab for

your whole arm.

 

Sorry, coach. I prefer to go riding on my donkey instead of having

my donkey riding me.

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> > > Sticky (as in viscous) or vicious? Either way she sounds scary!

> > Viscuos attack dog? I'm ROFLMAO. Sticks to you and licks you to death?

 

> I'm a warning ya, Janesh, and for the last time. If you dare show your

> face in Alachua, ya better be packing a box of handi-wipes.

 

> Sthita-dhi @ Tomar 'Ninja lips' Kukura

 

Waw, sounds realy scary... Who will be the assistants of the duell, when our

"minister of education" meets the "prime minister" face to face, in order to

finish their dispute man to man, in a matter of onor?

Any volunteers who stepp forward?

 

And what weapons have you choosed? Sword, club or the good old indian

tomahawk?

Maybe someone should whistle the song from Enrico Moricone ..."play me the

song of....." when our two combatans meet at their final showdown at

Alachua.

 

But maybe they will hold their fight peacefully and at the end like each

other, we love them both and I think the citizans of "our state" also, or?

 

 

ys,

harsi das

[Guest guest]

On 10 Aug 1999, Harsi das wrote:

 

 

>

> But maybe they will hold their fight peacefully and at the end like each

other, we love them both and I think the citizans of "our state" also, or?

>

>

 

 

What are you kidding, an old pudge bucket like me get in a fist-fight? Anyway,

I've got Tomar the Terrible Terrier to defend me from those mean ol'

ksatriyas. That's my VAD plan - I'll let ya know how it works out.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Sorry, coach. I prefer to go riding on my donkey instead of having

> my donkey riding me.

>

> - mnd

 

You know the story of the man, the son, and the donkey?

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > Sorry, coach. I prefer to go riding on my donkey instead of having my

> > donkey riding me.

> >

> > - mnd

>

> You know the story of the man, the son, and the donkey?

 

No, tell us, go on.

[Guest guest]

Please remove my name from the two varnasram conferences. Thank you very

much. I have no more time to study all these letters. Your servant, Krsna

kirtana dasi.

-----Message d'origine-----

De : COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius) <Samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

À : WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) <jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net>; COM:

Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Date : samedi 7 août 1999 14:38

Objet : How to start varnasrama

 

 

>[Text 2537788 from COM]

>

>> > Why would they force some bhaktas who are probably NOT brahmanas to go

>> > out on "sankirtan" for three years?

>

>I dont know how things are now in the west, but there was certainly a lot

of

>psychological pressure put on devotees to perform to the leaders desires.

If

>I did not go on sankirtan I was considered heavily in Maya. No one thought

>'hey maybe this boy needs to be engaged in another occupation'. If you are

>constantly told how fallen you are because you dont fit into the leaders

>scheme, it has an effect, especialy when one understands the value of

>humility, this was often used as a tool to subjugate.

>

>Other leaders resorted to grosser pressure tactics, "if its not a thousand

>dollars a day, its not devotional service". These things went on. In China

>they can frogmarch you, we cant take it so far, although I did see some

>devotees physicaly beaten by their 'leaders'. (the name Kailashchandra

comes

>to mind, but I might be wrong)

>

>> Where did you get the idea of *forcing* some bhaktas on sankirtana for

>> three years?

>

>I was forced, it is not so unbeleivable. OK I could have stood my ground,

>and refused, but I dont think it would have done much good, besides I knew

I

>was in 'Maya'. I was 16, 17, and not very aggressive. Should an aspiring

>monk stand up, against his authorities?

>>

>> Anybody who has been going on the street to distribute Srila

>> Prabhupada's books, will tell you that you can't force anyone

>> to do it for that time.

>

>Maybe not physicaly force, but soviet style 'cooercion' is quite possible.

>>

>> Again, the *idea* of doing it for three years (if you are a temple

>> devotee) is there. For those for whom it works out, fine. For those for

>> whom it would not work out like that, something else will for sure be

>> there.

>

>> something else will for sure be there.

>

>You are so certain? So many gurukula graduates cannot find a meaningfull

>service in ISKCON.

>

>

>> Where did you get the idea that it is first the "varnasrama college" to

be

>> going through, before entering the temple life style of the devotional

>> service? Is it Srila Prabhupada's, really?

>

>That is not what he is saying. They go hand in hand.

>>

>> Don't expect from the people joining a Hare Krsna temple to be

>> doing it so out of their interest to get some occupational, varna

>> training. Where are you coming from? (in my "motherland", one would say,

>> "Have you dropped here from a Mars?").

>

>You have completely misunderstood the text.

>>

>>

>> > And if the bhakta is a vaisya, sudra or ksatriya by nature this has

been

>> > discovered BEFORE engaging them in some incorrect, unnatural varna

>> > wherein they would only become frustrated and leave.

>

>You make it sound so extreme. Practicaly ALL of the established religious

>groups have years of training before their people become qualified.

>Catholics go through FOURTEEN YEARS of training. In some of our centers you

>might be luckly to get three weeks of 'training'. We are hopelessy

>disorganised in this respect.

>

>> Where are you getting your ideas from? Since when some years of

>> book distribution (for those who can make it, self-obviously) are

>> "incorrect, unnatural varna engagement"?

>

>It is just comon sense really. If you are not suited for it, it is not

>correct engagement, nor is it natural. is that difficult to understand?

>

>> Then you send them all not to a Hare Krsna temple. Maybe to some

>> camps, where they will get the professional training.

>

>I am really surprised that after so long in this conference, you can still

>misunderstand this most basic point. The practical training, and the

>spiritual training are done, SIMULTANOUSLY. They compliment each other. We

>have to live in this material world, and we have to leave it. Spiritual

>training combined with the activities we need to know to feed ourselves,

are

>an emminently sensible way to learn. We need to see how our entire lives

can

>be linked to KRSNA Consciousness.

>>

>> Temples actually, in the classic meaning of "temple", should be

>> the place for brahmanas only, engaged in the worship of deities.

>> Well, in ISCKON, perhaps also the place for the brahmana-preachers.

>>

>> Everybody else somewhere else.

>

>Ok lads, cant do sankirtan?.... OUT. I thought Prabhupada had a place for

us

>all?

>

>> > This "three years in the temple and sankirtana" is brain-washing and

>> > "cult consciousness".

>>

>> Then don't go living in the temple, if even 3 years of it is too much for

>> you, and some brain-washing occultism.

>

>Yeah I guess we should just shut up and let this 'perfect' system we have

>continue, and hopefully there will still be some devotees left, to do

>something. After all everything is just dandy in ISKCON right now, I never

>heard of ANY problems at all.

>

>>

>> Srila Prabhupada was the one who established the distribution of

>> his books to be the basis of the temple life and consciousness. To simply

>> try to balance it in some more practical form as it used to be so far, is

>> to be rather appreciated. Not condemned as a

>> "brainwashing".

>

>Yes Srila Prabhupada was very happy to see book distribution. He also said

>that washing the pots is equal service. All services equall. Eventualy

>though the book distribution became 'fund raising' using dubious means, to

>pay for sometimes dubious projects.

>

>There is no doubt that Srila Prabhupada liked and encouraged book

>distribution, but his ultimate vision was much higher than that. I know for

>sure that he would not force anyone on the street. The principle of

service,

>is that it is done with love and devotion spontaneously. As soon as you try

>to force in any way, you compromise the bhakti.

>

>> > What if the new bhakta was a vaisya by nature from DAY ONE

>> > and would have been a fantastic servitor of the cows who are suffering?

>>

>> Don't use "cow's suffering" as the argument against the idea of

>> "3-years temple life" period.

>

>Cows have NOTHING to do with three years temple life?

>

>Cows are somehow removed from spiritual life?

>

>Krsna's cows, are somehow not an important part of becoming Krsna

>Consciousness?

>

>It is this kind of casual attitude towards Krsnas Cows, that caused all the

>abuse in the first place.

>

>These are misplaced priorities. I find it hard to beleive that you are so

>fanaticaly supporting the idea, that each and every devotee MUST go out on

>the street distributing books for 3 years. You are usualy so much against

>any kind of 'ordering'. I guess this is just another good debate. The

>opposite idea tommorow eh! Or maybe a bit of backtracking?

>

>> PS. You just objected to Sthita his "Chairman Mao" expression, but look

>> how you are continuing with blasting away anybody's effort to do anything

>> in regard to doing something practical on the field.

>

>You really have it in for him eh! And all he's doing is trying to remind us

>about an entire facet of Krsna Consciousness that has been overlooked since

>Prabhupada left.

>

>> The only way for somebody to not get shoot down by you, seams to be to do

>> it exactly the way you would dictate. Well, yes, then get a "China" for

>> yourself.

>

>It amazes me that you have it in for Janesvara so much, even though he

>quotes from Srila Prabhupada almost verbatim.

>

>Cant you just give it a break?

>

>Try to offer something positive, instead of always picking holes.

>

>I mean this is the VARNASRAMA conference, so shouldnt we expect people to

be

>kind of into varnasrama. Is it such a crime to remind people who seem to

>have misconceptions about what Srila Prabhupada desired.

>

>All Janesh does is write texts, you can just delete them if you want, where

>is the question of force? Personaly I am very impressed how he has imbibed

>Srila Prabhupadas instructions so well, and is so determined not to let the

>misconceptions stay.

>

>Of course you will probabaly backtrack, and tell us all how much you really

>are into varnasrama, and end up accepting most of the points mentioned, and

>then move on and find someone else to criticise.

>

>Yawn... this is so boring. I have had devotees joining the practial

>varnasrama conference, just because they find all this flaming so

>unproductive.

>

>Janesh, hey I'm sorry, I'm not trying to defend you here, I just cant stand

>all this negativity.

>

>I wonder why it is that so few other devotees join in on this conference?

>

>YS

>