Guest guest Posted August 14, 1999 Report Share Posted August 14, 1999 Hare Krishna, I've spent nine of the last 25 years living in two rural ISKCON communities and shorter periods of time visiting at least a dozen others. I've been thinking for a long time about how to practically implement varnashrama and why ISKCON has failed again and again. I hope this is the right time and place to put down some of my thoughts. I don't really agree that Srila Prabhupada pointed out the path to varnashrama and that we just have to follow it. In this case our responsibility is far greater. As far as I can understand, Prabhupada's teachings and instructions on varnashrama fall into four basic categories: 1) We should establish self-sufficient rural communities. 2) Some day, modern society will collapse and people will flock to our rural communities for food and shelter. 3) We should establish varnashrama colleges in our urban centers. 4) Varnashrama is 50% of Prabhupada's mission, but we, his followers have to develop it. The practical question is how to get there from here. The quickest path is not always a straight line. The following are my observations and ideas. I'll state them briefly and without much detail for now: 1) The first principle of varnashrama is survival. A community can't be self-sufficient if it can't grow enough food, etc. for it's own residents. Grihastas can't support the other orders unless they can first feed, clothe and shelter their own families. As far as I know, ISKCON has never had a single successful (in terms of self-supporting agriculture) rural community. Gita-nagari is a good example of a community where at least some of the devotees have been deeply committed to agriculture. The Gita-nagari property previously supported a single karmi family. However, the number of devotees later living there peaked at around 120. How can a farm that formerly supported 6 or 8 people be able to support 120? It can't. Therefore, such projects have historically been heavily subsidized by non-farming activities and by city-based fund raising. If a rural community can't support its own residents, how can it hope to support thousands of non-devotees fleeing urban culture? 2) The majority of our failed rural projects have been in developed countries. "Simple living" as described by Srila Prabhupada is far, far simpler than most of our devotees would be willing to accept at this time. This is a fact that needs to be included in any calculations for economic self-sufficiency. 3) Farms need to be economically self-sufficient before they need to be agriculturally self-sufficient. 4) There are good examples of successful self-sufficient farm communities around the world. They can be divided into two basic categories: communes and collectives. In successful communes the land is owned by the commune and worked by a group of ultra highly-motivated individuals (read Israel). In successful collectives the land is owned by individual families but the agriculture program is designed by the collective and the marketing is done through the collective. We should learn from successful examples. 5) Rural projects within 45 minutes travel-time from a major urban preaching center can take advantage of the proximity and supplement agricultural income with income from adult education (Vegavan's activities in Sweden provide an excellent example), tourism, specialty prasadam distribution, gurukula, etc. 6) Projects more than 45 minutes away will necessarily be much more dependent on agriculture. They can get started economically by growing specialty cash crops such as organic vegetables, herbs and spices, ginseng, etc. If there is economic stability in the community, a transition to self-sufficiency will be more likely to succeed. I'm sure there will be plenty of disagreement on this, but the essence is that we're not going to jump from nothing to varnashram self-sufficiency directly. Subsidizing farm projects while waiting for self-sufficiency hasn't worked. Our rural communities should have a plan for fast economic self-sufficiency, followed by gradual agricultural self-sufficiency and cow protection. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se [samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Friday, August 13, 1999 4:52 AM COM: Practical Varnasrama First steps [Text 2551922 from COM] In this text I am attempting to establish some basic assumptions that need to be agreed upon, in order for us to progress towards the first steps to starting varnasrama systems in ISKCON. If you agree with it, please dont comment, if you disagree please specify, as briefly as possible your disagreement, and if you wish to add or comment please feel free, but keep it to the point. If you have serious disagreements, lets take it to the 'varnasrama development' conference, and discuss it there. Lets keep this conference for all those that agree with the basic ideas, so we can progress. I am not particulary learned in this area, but I do have very deep conviction that Srila Prabhupadas Varnasrama system is the one ingredient missing in our society, that could solve practicaly all of our problems. I do not have the Vedabase either, so I will have to rely on others who have it to back up anything that requires an appropriate quote. Thanks. In order to take the first steps towards starting varnasrama communities, we have to have the awareness that it is in fact needed. It appears that many devotees do not see the need for us to focus on the development of varnasrama. If we are to work cooperatively with our fellow aspirant devotees, we need to have a common vision. I feel that this is the first stumbling block many devotees will have. Regular readings of Srila Prabhupadas teachings on varnasrama should be aranged in all temples, by any devotees who feel enthused to arange it. Srila Prabhupadas teachings stand by themselves, we only have to have the will to go down the path he chalks out for us. I will assume that here in this conference we all agree that varnasrma systems are required in ISKCON if we are to progress properly towards the goal of a 'society' of Krsna conscious persons as envisioned by Srila Prabhupada. The very basis of the Varna-Asrama Dharma (VAD) social system is rooted in an economy based on rural or agricultural production. Such an economy would put us in firm touch with Lord Krsnas prakriti or nature. This is a very important principle. The idea of VAD is that it is a material system designed to bring materialy conditioned souls to the level of Sattva guna, or the mode of goodness. Human beings need to come to this mode, in order to make progress in spiritual life. From this platform, an aspiring devotee is in a position where he can, providing he pleases the pure devotees, and obtains their mercy, jump from sattva guna to suddha sattva or pure goodness. So coming to the mode of goodness is very important for human beings. Srila Prabhupada reccomends the VAD system to do this. The best is if we can be completely transcendental to all material modes, but it is virtualy impossible for a conditioned soul to do this. Therefore the VAD system is designed to bring us gradualy to this platform. One of the central teachings of Srila Prabhupada is that of 'simple living and high thinking'. In ISKCON this has been interpreted in various ways. however it is quite clear that Srila Prabhupada envisioned a system where devotees learn to live from the land. This is a cross varna instruction. Not that all people are vaisyas. But that MOST people at some stage of their life, have some connection to the land, and that most people grow at least SOME of their food. We can therefore take it for granted that a VAD society needs to run on an arigultural economic model, as opposed to the ugrakarmic one. Srila Prabhupada makes it quite clear about the evils of modern 'ugrakarmic' 'nuts and bolts' society. As proof of his intentions in this area he started the New Vrindavan community early on and was instrumental in the opening of other rural centers. Practicaly all of these communities failed to become 'ideal units' of society, as Srila Prabhupada wished them to be. There were a number of reasons for this, which we wont go into now, but it was mostly due to the fact that they were not managed as VAD communities, instead they were managed loosely along the lines of existing temples, on a kind of unique 'communism' based system. The basis of a VAD system is that indivduals have direct control over the means of production, ie land holding, which is tempered by rules of social conduct laid down by the ksatria. In other words, each member of society, has a right to land for his subsistence, but this is only given if he agrees to abide by the laws of dharma as laid down by the ksatrias, under the guidance of indpendant brahmins. How can we reach this state in ISKCON? I will attempt to deal with this subject in my next post. YS Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 1999 Report Share Posted August 14, 1999 Hare Krishna, I've spent nine of the last 25 years living in two rural ISKCON communities and shorter periods of time visiting at least a dozen others. I've been thinking for a long time about how to practically implement varnashrama and why ISKCON has failed again and again. I hope this is the right time and place to put down some of my thoughts. I don't really agree that Srila Prabhupada pointed out the path to varnashrama and that we just have to follow it. In this case our responsibility is far greater. As far as I can understand, Prabhupada's teachings and instructions on varnashrama fall into four basic categories: 1) We should establish self-sufficient rural communities. 2) Some day, modern society will collapse and people will flock to our rural communities for food and shelter. 3) We should establish varnashrama colleges in our urban centers. 4) Varnashrama is 50% of Prabhupada's mission, but we, his followers have to develop it. The practical question is how to get there from here. The quickest path is not always a straight line. The following are my observations and ideas. I'll state them briefly and without much detail for now: 1) The first principle of varnashrama is survival. A community can't be self-sufficient if it can't grow enough food, etc. for it's own residents. Grihastas can't support the other orders unless they can first feed, clothe and shelter their own families. As far as I know, ISKCON has never had a single successful (in terms of self-supporting agriculture) rural community. Gita-nagari is a good example of a community where at least some of the devotees have been deeply committed to agriculture. The Gita-nagari property previously supported a single karmi family. However, the number of devotees later living there peaked at around 120. How can a farm that formerly supported 6 or 8 people be able to support 120? It can't. Therefore, such projects have historically been heavily subsidized by non-farming activities and by city-based fund raising. If a rural community can't support its own residents, how can it hope to support thousands of non-devotees fleeing urban culture? 2) The majority of our failed rural projects have been in developed countries. "Simple living" as described by Srila Prabhupada is far, far simpler than most of our devotees would be willing to accept at this time. This is a fact that needs to be included in any calculations for economic self-sufficiency. 3) Farms need to be economically self-sufficient before they need to be agriculturally self-sufficient. 4) There are good examples of successful self-sufficient farm communities around the world. They can be divided into two basic categories: communes and collectives. In successful communes the land is owned by the commune and worked by a group of ultra highly-motivated individuals (read Israel). In successful collectives the land is owned by individual families but the agriculture program is designed by the collective and the marketing is done through the collective. We should learn from successful examples. 5) Rural projects within 45 minutes travel-time from a major urban preaching center can take advantage of the proximity and supplement agricultural income with income from adult education (Vegavan's activities in Sweden provide an excellent example), tourism, specialty prasadam distribution, gurukula, etc. 6) Projects more than 45 minutes away will necessarily be much more dependent on agriculture. They can get started economically by growing specialty cash crops such as organic vegetables, herbs and spices, ginseng, etc. If there is economic stability in the community, a transition to self-sufficiency will be more likely to succeed. I'm sure there will be plenty of disagreement on this, but the essence is that we're not going to jump from nothing to varnashram self-sufficiency directly. Subsidizing farm projects while waiting for self-sufficiency hasn't worked. Our rural communities should have a plan for fast economic self-sufficiency, followed by gradual agricultural self-sufficiency and cow protection. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se [samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Friday, August 13, 1999 4:52 AM COM: Practical Varnasrama First steps [Text 2551922 from COM] In this text I am attempting to establish some basic assumptions that need to be agreed upon, in order for us to progress towards the first steps to starting varnasrama systems in ISKCON. If you agree with it, please dont comment, if you disagree please specify, as briefly as possible your disagreement, and if you wish to add or comment please feel free, but keep it to the point. If you have serious disagreements, lets take it to the 'varnasrama development' conference, and discuss it there. Lets keep this conference for all those that agree with the basic ideas, so we can progress. I am not particulary learned in this area, but I do have very deep conviction that Srila Prabhupadas Varnasrama system is the one ingredient missing in our society, that could solve practicaly all of our problems. I do not have the Vedabase either, so I will have to rely on others who have it to back up anything that requires an appropriate quote. Thanks. In order to take the first steps towards starting varnasrama communities, we have to have the awareness that it is in fact needed. It appears that many devotees do not see the need for us to focus on the development of varnasrama. If we are to work cooperatively with our fellow aspirant devotees, we need to have a common vision. I feel that this is the first stumbling block many devotees will have. Regular readings of Srila Prabhupadas teachings on varnasrama should be aranged in all temples, by any devotees who feel enthused to arange it. Srila Prabhupadas teachings stand by themselves, we only have to have the will to go down the path he chalks out for us. I will assume that here in this conference we all agree that varnasrma systems are required in ISKCON if we are to progress properly towards the goal of a 'society' of Krsna conscious persons as envisioned by Srila Prabhupada. The very basis of the Varna-Asrama Dharma (VAD) social system is rooted in an economy based on rural or agricultural production. Such an economy would put us in firm touch with Lord Krsnas prakriti or nature. This is a very important principle. The idea of VAD is that it is a material system designed to bring materialy conditioned souls to the level of Sattva guna, or the mode of goodness. Human beings need to come to this mode, in order to make progress in spiritual life. From this platform, an aspiring devotee is in a position where he can, providing he pleases the pure devotees, and obtains their mercy, jump from sattva guna to suddha sattva or pure goodness. So coming to the mode of goodness is very important for human beings. Srila Prabhupada reccomends the VAD system to do this. The best is if we can be completely transcendental to all material modes, but it is virtualy impossible for a conditioned soul to do this. Therefore the VAD system is designed to bring us gradualy to this platform. One of the central teachings of Srila Prabhupada is that of 'simple living and high thinking'. In ISKCON this has been interpreted in various ways. however it is quite clear that Srila Prabhupada envisioned a system where devotees learn to live from the land. This is a cross varna instruction. Not that all people are vaisyas. But that MOST people at some stage of their life, have some connection to the land, and that most people grow at least SOME of their food. We can therefore take it for granted that a VAD society needs to run on an arigultural economic model, as opposed to the ugrakarmic one. Srila Prabhupada makes it quite clear about the evils of modern 'ugrakarmic' 'nuts and bolts' society. As proof of his intentions in this area he started the New Vrindavan community early on and was instrumental in the opening of other rural centers. Practicaly all of these communities failed to become 'ideal units' of society, as Srila Prabhupada wished them to be. There were a number of reasons for this, which we wont go into now, but it was mostly due to the fact that they were not managed as VAD communities, instead they were managed loosely along the lines of existing temples, on a kind of unique 'communism' based system. The basis of a VAD system is that indivduals have direct control over the means of production, ie land holding, which is tempered by rules of social conduct laid down by the ksatria. In other words, each member of society, has a right to land for his subsistence, but this is only given if he agrees to abide by the laws of dharma as laid down by the ksatrias, under the guidance of indpendant brahmins. How can we reach this state in ISKCON? I will attempt to deal with this subject in my next post. YS Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 "COM: Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote: > [Text 2555312 from COM] > > Hare Krishna, > > I've spent nine of the last 25 years living in two rural ISKCON > communities and shorter periods of time visiting at least a dozen others. > I've been thinking for a long time about how to practically implement > varnashrama and why ISKCON has failed again and again. I hope this is the > right time and place to put down some of my thoughts. > > I don't really agree that Srila Prabhupada pointed out the path to > varnashrama and that we just have to follow it. In this case our > responsibility is far greater. As far as I can understand, Prabhupada's > teachings and instructions on varnashrama fall into four basic categories: > > 1) We should establish self-sufficient rural communities. > > 2) Some day, modern society will collapse and people will flock to our > rural communities for food and shelter. > > 3) We should establish varnashrama colleges in our urban centers. > > 4) Varnashrama is 50% of Prabhupada's mission, but we, his followers have > to develop it. > > The practical question is how to get there from here. The quickest path > is not always a straight line. The following are my observations and ideas. > I'll state them briefly and without much detail for now: > > 1) The first principle of varnashrama is survival. A community can't be > self-sufficient if it can't grow enough food, etc. for it's own residents. > Grihastas can't support the other orders unless they can first feed, clothe > and shelter their own families. As far as I know, ISKCON has never had a > single successful (in terms of self-supporting agriculture) rural community. > > Gita-nagari is a good example of a community where at least some of the > devotees have been deeply committed to agriculture. The Gita-nagari property > previously supported a single karmi family. However, the number of devotees > later living there peaked at around 120. How can a farm that formerly > supported 6 or 8 people be able to support 120? It can't. Therefore, such > projects have historically been heavily subsidized by non-farming > activities and by city-based fund raising. > > If a rural community can't support its own residents, how can it hope to > support thousands of non-devotees fleeing urban culture? > > > Your servant, > Sri Rama das > > [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or > [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Hare Krsna dasi Sri Rama and Samba prabhus, this is a very nice and thoughtful discussion. [i have not reprinted Sri Rama's letter in its entirety.] There are additional points I would like to raise. Although I don't agree precisely with all that has been said, I think it is very productive to have this kind of analytical discussion of how to attain Prabhupada's vision for us. >From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather subsistence. If we just begin on the capitalist plan and assume that if we sell enough crops to buy what we need, then we are self-sufficient, then we will be sidetracked in our efforts to attain varnasrama and may never reach it. That is the enigma of the example of the so-called "self-sufficient tobacco farmer." He grows tobacco and sells it. With the money he makes, he can buy everything he needs. So some of us would term him "economically self-sufficient." But this type of market-oriented production is never what Srila Prabhupada presents when he uses the term "self-sufficient" or "self-independent." Most of the time when he uses those terms, he is talking about growing your own food, and producing your own cloth. Sometimes, he is so specific as to suggest, "Grow your own grains, produce your own milk." As my agribusiness hog-farmer uncle explained to me, ISKCON can never be successful by selling grains produced by the oxen. "How much can you plow in one day?" he asked, commenting, "I can plow a hundred acres a day with my tractor. You can plow only 1-4 acres with your oxen. Best for you to follow the example of the Amish and grow specialty crops that you can sell for a bigger profit." But I disagree with Uncle Mike, and I think that Srila Prabhupada would have also. Commercial farming will not lead to subsistence farming, because patterns and dependencies are established that are hard to change. We must take the bull by the horns and face up to the fact, that the only way subsistence farming can be established is if it has initial protection from its capitalist environment. My personal conviction based on reading Srila Prabhupada is that the petroleum-based capitalist model has at most a few more decades of existence. Once it collapses, Prabhupada's subsistence farms will manifest their actual viability -- and become powerfully attractive means for attracting others to Krsna consciousness -- if we actually build them up starting now. That takes training for our young farmers, and it takes land. The dilemma of how to address the land situation is expertly dealt with by Jaya Lalita prabhu in the attached document entitled "Land Tenure in Varnasrama" which was the basis of a presentation which she made at the Kandavaprastha Varnasrama Curriculum Development sessions in July 1999. (Jaya Lalita prabhu is a Prabhupada disciple who is currently completing her master's degree in resource economics at the University of New Hampshire.) I hope you will take the time to read it, as it raises interesting points, and interesting possibilities for how to utilize features of the current market economy in a way so as to ultimately free our devotees from that system. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 "COM: Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote: > [Text 2555312 from COM] > > Hare Krishna, > > I've spent nine of the last 25 years living in two rural ISKCON > communities and shorter periods of time visiting at least a dozen others. > I've been thinking for a long time about how to practically implement > varnashrama and why ISKCON has failed again and again. I hope this is the > right time and place to put down some of my thoughts. > > I don't really agree that Srila Prabhupada pointed out the path to > varnashrama and that we just have to follow it. In this case our > responsibility is far greater. As far as I can understand, Prabhupada's > teachings and instructions on varnashrama fall into four basic categories: > > 1) We should establish self-sufficient rural communities. > > 2) Some day, modern society will collapse and people will flock to our > rural communities for food and shelter. > > 3) We should establish varnashrama colleges in our urban centers. > > 4) Varnashrama is 50% of Prabhupada's mission, but we, his followers have > to develop it. > > The practical question is how to get there from here. The quickest path > is not always a straight line. The following are my observations and ideas. > I'll state them briefly and without much detail for now: > > 1) The first principle of varnashrama is survival. A community can't be > self-sufficient if it can't grow enough food, etc. for it's own residents. > Grihastas can't support the other orders unless they can first feed, clothe > and shelter their own families. As far as I know, ISKCON has never had a > single successful (in terms of self-supporting agriculture) rural community. > > Gita-nagari is a good example of a community where at least some of the > devotees have been deeply committed to agriculture. The Gita-nagari property > previously supported a single karmi family. However, the number of devotees > later living there peaked at around 120. How can a farm that formerly > supported 6 or 8 people be able to support 120? It can't. Therefore, such > projects have historically been heavily subsidized by non-farming > activities and by city-based fund raising. > > If a rural community can't support its own residents, how can it hope to > support thousands of non-devotees fleeing urban culture? > > > Your servant, > Sri Rama das > > [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or > [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Hare Krsna dasi Sri Rama and Samba prabhus, this is a very nice and thoughtful discussion. [i have not reprinted Sri Rama's letter in its entirety.] There are additional points I would like to raise. Although I don't agree precisely with all that has been said, I think it is very productive to have this kind of analytical discussion of how to attain Prabhupada's vision for us. >From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather subsistence. If we just begin on the capitalist plan and assume that if we sell enough crops to buy what we need, then we are self-sufficient, then we will be sidetracked in our efforts to attain varnasrama and may never reach it. That is the enigma of the example of the so-called "self-sufficient tobacco farmer." He grows tobacco and sells it. With the money he makes, he can buy everything he needs. So some of us would term him "economically self-sufficient." But this type of market-oriented production is never what Srila Prabhupada presents when he uses the term "self-sufficient" or "self-independent." Most of the time when he uses those terms, he is talking about growing your own food, and producing your own cloth. Sometimes, he is so specific as to suggest, "Grow your own grains, produce your own milk." As my agribusiness hog-farmer uncle explained to me, ISKCON can never be successful by selling grains produced by the oxen. "How much can you plow in one day?" he asked, commenting, "I can plow a hundred acres a day with my tractor. You can plow only 1-4 acres with your oxen. Best for you to follow the example of the Amish and grow specialty crops that you can sell for a bigger profit." But I disagree with Uncle Mike, and I think that Srila Prabhupada would have also. Commercial farming will not lead to subsistence farming, because patterns and dependencies are established that are hard to change. We must take the bull by the horns and face up to the fact, that the only way subsistence farming can be established is if it has initial protection from its capitalist environment. My personal conviction based on reading Srila Prabhupada is that the petroleum-based capitalist model has at most a few more decades of existence. Once it collapses, Prabhupada's subsistence farms will manifest their actual viability -- and become powerfully attractive means for attracting others to Krsna consciousness -- if we actually build them up starting now. That takes training for our young farmers, and it takes land. The dilemma of how to address the land situation is expertly dealt with by Jaya Lalita prabhu in the attached document entitled "Land Tenure in Varnasrama" which was the basis of a presentation which she made at the Kandavaprastha Varnasrama Curriculum Development sessions in July 1999. (Jaya Lalita prabhu is a Prabhupada disciple who is currently completing her master's degree in resource economics at the University of New Hampshire.) I hope you will take the time to read it, as it raises interesting points, and interesting possibilities for how to utilize features of the current market economy in a way so as to ultimately free our devotees from that system. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > Sri Rama and Samba prabhus, this is a very nice and thoughtful discussion. > [i have not reprinted Sri Rama's letter in its entirety.] There are > additional points I would like to raise. Although I don't agree precisely > with all that has been said, I think it is very productive to have this > kind of analytical discussion of how to attain Prabhupada's vision for us. Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will this be succesfull? Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this democratic capitalistic society we are living in? But on the other hand who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. Prabhupadas Simple living - High thinking can be endeed for many of us far to "simple" to put it in practice. Apart from the spiritual side, is the man living from bred alone? A family in order to live a decent life needs a house or apartment for shelter, needs furniture, clothing, in this modern days one would need ashurances for disease etc. make provisions for the retirament age of its members. Another very, very costly luxury but neverless practical for living is a car for traveling here and there. Formerly one may have had one or two horses (one or two PS) for this purpose, but now one has a car with 60 or 80 or 180 PS. And the expenses for this "luxury" are acordingly. One big leak where the family income can get lost. Was Srila Prabhupada enoph aware of what it means to live a family life in this "modern" times in the west especialy when he proposed for his disciples the VAD goal of Simple living - High thinking? Was he doing it himself during his family life? We know he himself was doing buisness and quite succesfully for some time, acording to capitalistic principles in order to maintain his family. Was this Simple living - High thinking acording to varnasrama or a necesity to survive in this time? We know also he was a follower of Gandhis movement in his joung days. Was Ghandi trying to establish VAD principles in his village comunes like in South Africa or India? > From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that > one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in > capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is > proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather > subsistence. What answers would Prabhupada give to my above questions in regard of subsistence in this days? Does man live from bred alone... > If we just begin on the capitalist plan and assume that if > we sell enough crops to buy what we need, then we are self-sufficient, > then we will be sidetracked in our efforts to attain varnasrama and may > never reach it. > That is the enigma of the example of the so-called "self-sufficient > tobacco farmer." He grows tobacco and sells it. With the money he makes, > he can buy everything he needs. So some of us would term him > "economically self-sufficient." But this type of market-oriented > production is never what Srila Prabhupada presents when he uses the term > "self-sufficient" or "self-independent." Most of the time when he uses > those terms, he is talking about growing your own food, and producing your > own cloth. Sometimes, he is so specific as to suggest, "Grow your own > grains, produce your own milk." > As my agribusiness hog-farmer uncle explained to me, ISKCON can never be > successful by selling grains produced by the oxen. "How much can you plow > in one day?" he asked, commenting, "I can plow a hundred acres a day with > my tractor. You can plow only 1-4 acres with your oxen. Best for you to > follow the example of the Amish and grow specialty crops that you can sell > for a bigger profit." > > But I disagree with Uncle Mike, and I think that Srila Prabhupada would > have also. Commercial farming will not lead to subsistence farming, > because patterns and dependencies are established that are hard to change. > > We must take the bull by the horns and face up to the fact, that the only > way subsistence farming can be established is if it has initial protection > from its capitalist environment. My personal conviction based on reading > Srila Prabhupada is that the petroleum-based capitalist model has at most > a few more decades of existence. Once it collapses, Prabhupada's > subsistence farms will manifest their actual viability -- and become > powerfully attractive means for attracting others to Krsna consciousness > -- if we actually build them up starting now. > > That takes training for our young farmers, and it takes land. > > The dilemma of how to address the land situation is expertly dealt with by > Jaya Lalita prabhu in the attached document entitled "Land Tenure in > Varnasrama" which was the basis of a presentation which she made at the > Kandavaprastha Varnasrama Curriculum Development sessions in July 1999. > (Jaya Lalita prabhu is a Prabhupada disciple who is currently completing > her master's degree in resource economics at the University of New > Hampshire.) > > I hope you will take the time to read it, as it raises interesting points, > and interesting possibilities for how to utilize features of the current > market economy in a way so as to ultimately free our devotees from that > system. > > your servant, > > Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > Sri Rama and Samba prabhus, this is a very nice and thoughtful discussion. > [i have not reprinted Sri Rama's letter in its entirety.] There are > additional points I would like to raise. Although I don't agree precisely > with all that has been said, I think it is very productive to have this > kind of analytical discussion of how to attain Prabhupada's vision for us. Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will this be succesfull? Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this democratic capitalistic society we are living in? But on the other hand who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. Prabhupadas Simple living - High thinking can be endeed for many of us far to "simple" to put it in practice. Apart from the spiritual side, is the man living from bred alone? A family in order to live a decent life needs a house or apartment for shelter, needs furniture, clothing, in this modern days one would need ashurances for disease etc. make provisions for the retirament age of its members. Another very, very costly luxury but neverless practical for living is a car for traveling here and there. Formerly one may have had one or two horses (one or two PS) for this purpose, but now one has a car with 60 or 80 or 180 PS. And the expenses for this "luxury" are acordingly. One big leak where the family income can get lost. Was Srila Prabhupada enoph aware of what it means to live a family life in this "modern" times in the west especialy when he proposed for his disciples the VAD goal of Simple living - High thinking? Was he doing it himself during his family life? We know he himself was doing buisness and quite succesfully for some time, acording to capitalistic principles in order to maintain his family. Was this Simple living - High thinking acording to varnasrama or a necesity to survive in this time? We know also he was a follower of Gandhis movement in his joung days. Was Ghandi trying to establish VAD principles in his village comunes like in South Africa or India? > From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that > one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in > capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is > proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather > subsistence. What answers would Prabhupada give to my above questions in regard of subsistence in this days? Does man live from bred alone... > If we just begin on the capitalist plan and assume that if > we sell enough crops to buy what we need, then we are self-sufficient, > then we will be sidetracked in our efforts to attain varnasrama and may > never reach it. > That is the enigma of the example of the so-called "self-sufficient > tobacco farmer." He grows tobacco and sells it. With the money he makes, > he can buy everything he needs. So some of us would term him > "economically self-sufficient." But this type of market-oriented > production is never what Srila Prabhupada presents when he uses the term > "self-sufficient" or "self-independent." Most of the time when he uses > those terms, he is talking about growing your own food, and producing your > own cloth. Sometimes, he is so specific as to suggest, "Grow your own > grains, produce your own milk." > As my agribusiness hog-farmer uncle explained to me, ISKCON can never be > successful by selling grains produced by the oxen. "How much can you plow > in one day?" he asked, commenting, "I can plow a hundred acres a day with > my tractor. You can plow only 1-4 acres with your oxen. Best for you to > follow the example of the Amish and grow specialty crops that you can sell > for a bigger profit." > > But I disagree with Uncle Mike, and I think that Srila Prabhupada would > have also. Commercial farming will not lead to subsistence farming, > because patterns and dependencies are established that are hard to change. > > We must take the bull by the horns and face up to the fact, that the only > way subsistence farming can be established is if it has initial protection > from its capitalist environment. My personal conviction based on reading > Srila Prabhupada is that the petroleum-based capitalist model has at most > a few more decades of existence. Once it collapses, Prabhupada's > subsistence farms will manifest their actual viability -- and become > powerfully attractive means for attracting others to Krsna consciousness > -- if we actually build them up starting now. > > That takes training for our young farmers, and it takes land. > > The dilemma of how to address the land situation is expertly dealt with by > Jaya Lalita prabhu in the attached document entitled "Land Tenure in > Varnasrama" which was the basis of a presentation which she made at the > Kandavaprastha Varnasrama Curriculum Development sessions in July 1999. > (Jaya Lalita prabhu is a Prabhupada disciple who is currently completing > her master's degree in resource economics at the University of New > Hampshire.) > > I hope you will take the time to read it, as it raises interesting points, > and interesting possibilities for how to utilize features of the current > market economy in a way so as to ultimately free our devotees from that > system. > > your servant, > > Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 > Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and > foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something > without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will > this be succesfull? I dont think it is that difficult, its just that we dont want to do it. Prabhupada says it can be done, that we have the intelligence, and that we will be happy. Have you got the new book yet? I dont have it either (no one from the archives responds, can anyone tell me how to get a copy?) but from what I understand, it will answer a lot of the questions. Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this > democratic capitalistic society we are living in? Yep, Srila Prabhupada says he wanted to introduce it, and that we can do it; right now. > But on the other hand > who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a > seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. VAD life is not poverty, in fact it is real wealth. Being in control of the means of production, and having time for Krsna Consciousness, will give us access to the highest pleasure, the sort of pleasure no millionaire will be able to have in a long time (unless he surrenders to Krsna). There are a few devotees, and it is up to those few to make it work. Maybe once we have a few positive examples, others will jump aboard. Really I think we are afraid of the simplicity, but the actual fact is that simplicity need not be hardship. Simplicity can be very nice, it is a matter of attitude. Physicaly it does not have to be uncomfortable. Prabhupadas > Simple living - High thinking can be endeed for many of us far to "simple" > to put it in practice. Apart from the spiritual side, is the man living > from bred alone? A family in order to live a decent life needs a house or > apartment for shelter, needs furniture, clothing, in this modern days one > would need ashurances for disease etc. make provisions for the retirament > age of its members. It all depends on what you consider a decent life. Sure it will be tough to make the change, but then for many of us the decision to join ISKCON was a tough one, hard choices. All the things you mentioned can be got in a simple life, except maybe the insurance. But if we are really Krsnas bhaktas and are relying on him, what better insurance can you get? Best is to lead a healthy life. (This is not a reccomendation for our Temples to not insure their property, in a situation where we cannot rely on the community to help, insurance is a good thing, the Amish dont have insurance). > Another very, very costly luxury but neverless practical for living is a > car for traveling here and there. A survey was done on how much time a person needs to spend working to maintain a car, this was compared to the amount of distance covered in the car. It turns out that the amount of time spent working to keep the car going, becomes equal to walking speed. In other words, if you walked to work, instead of driving, the time it would take, is equal to the time spent working to pay for it. The fact is that these technologies, Cell phones, fax's etc, actualy create as much work as they save, but becasue they are shiny and alluring, we dont really want to consider that. Many people around the world do pretty well without cars. You just have to arrange your life accordingly. But it takes a lot of effort initialy. Where there is a will there is a way. Formerly one may have had one or two > horses (one or two PS) for this purpose, but now one has a car with 60 or > 80 or 180 PS. And the expenses for this "luxury" are acordingly. One big > leak where the family income can get lost. It seems foolish really to spend so much time energy, and anxiety to maintain something that actualy equals what you could do on foot in the same period. Even worse that the car pollutes like crazy, and not just the driving. The manufacturing, the dismantling, the noise, and some parts like tyres cannot be disposed of without a lot more pollution. We dont need them, we just think we do, and we are attached. Ok maybe a car for preachers, but they should be good! > > Was Srila Prabhupada enoph aware of what it means to live a family life in > this "modern" times in the west especialy when he proposed for his > disciples the VAD goal of Simple living - High thinking? Srila Prabhupada was a pure devotee, paramahamsa, mahabhagavata, uttama adhikary, and last but not least, nitya siddha!. Lord Krsna dictated everything he wrote in his books. I think he was aware! > Was he doing it himself during his family life? We know he himself was > doing buisness and quite succesfully for some time, acording to > capitalistic principles in order to maintain his family. Was this Simple > living - High thinking acording to varnasrama or a necesity to survive in > this time? Srila Prabhupada was alone, he worked in India where at that time, life was a lot simpler than it is now. Varnasrama requires the co-operation of many people. He wanted us to do it. We know also he was a follower of Gandhis movement in his joung > days. Was Ghandi trying to establish VAD principles in his village comunes > like in South Africa or India? Many of Gandhis ideas were good, but he did not put Krsna in the center. > > > From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that > > one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in > > capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is > > proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather > > subsistence. > > What answers would Prabhupada give to my above questions in regard of > subsistence in this days? Does man live from bred alone... Prabhupada says that by digging the earth, one can grow nice food grains, vegetables, and keep cows, which produce milk, ghee, yoghurt etc. By combining these one can produce many very nice eatables to offer the Lord. Cotton, and castor also come from the soil, from which we can produce cloth, and oil for lamps. Everything man needs can be got from the soil, by the Lords perfect arrangement. Prabhupada has described modern society as 'soul killing' because we have to spend so much time maintaining things we do not need. We can grow all we need, and have plenty of time for Spiritual advancement. That is the point. YS Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 > Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and > foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something > without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will > this be succesfull? I dont think it is that difficult, its just that we dont want to do it. Prabhupada says it can be done, that we have the intelligence, and that we will be happy. Have you got the new book yet? I dont have it either (no one from the archives responds, can anyone tell me how to get a copy?) but from what I understand, it will answer a lot of the questions. Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this > democratic capitalistic society we are living in? Yep, Srila Prabhupada says he wanted to introduce it, and that we can do it; right now. > But on the other hand > who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a > seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. VAD life is not poverty, in fact it is real wealth. Being in control of the means of production, and having time for Krsna Consciousness, will give us access to the highest pleasure, the sort of pleasure no millionaire will be able to have in a long time (unless he surrenders to Krsna). There are a few devotees, and it is up to those few to make it work. Maybe once we have a few positive examples, others will jump aboard. Really I think we are afraid of the simplicity, but the actual fact is that simplicity need not be hardship. Simplicity can be very nice, it is a matter of attitude. Physicaly it does not have to be uncomfortable. Prabhupadas > Simple living - High thinking can be endeed for many of us far to "simple" > to put it in practice. Apart from the spiritual side, is the man living > from bred alone? A family in order to live a decent life needs a house or > apartment for shelter, needs furniture, clothing, in this modern days one > would need ashurances for disease etc. make provisions for the retirament > age of its members. It all depends on what you consider a decent life. Sure it will be tough to make the change, but then for many of us the decision to join ISKCON was a tough one, hard choices. All the things you mentioned can be got in a simple life, except maybe the insurance. But if we are really Krsnas bhaktas and are relying on him, what better insurance can you get? Best is to lead a healthy life. (This is not a reccomendation for our Temples to not insure their property, in a situation where we cannot rely on the community to help, insurance is a good thing, the Amish dont have insurance). > Another very, very costly luxury but neverless practical for living is a > car for traveling here and there. A survey was done on how much time a person needs to spend working to maintain a car, this was compared to the amount of distance covered in the car. It turns out that the amount of time spent working to keep the car going, becomes equal to walking speed. In other words, if you walked to work, instead of driving, the time it would take, is equal to the time spent working to pay for it. The fact is that these technologies, Cell phones, fax's etc, actualy create as much work as they save, but becasue they are shiny and alluring, we dont really want to consider that. Many people around the world do pretty well without cars. You just have to arrange your life accordingly. But it takes a lot of effort initialy. Where there is a will there is a way. Formerly one may have had one or two > horses (one or two PS) for this purpose, but now one has a car with 60 or > 80 or 180 PS. And the expenses for this "luxury" are acordingly. One big > leak where the family income can get lost. It seems foolish really to spend so much time energy, and anxiety to maintain something that actualy equals what you could do on foot in the same period. Even worse that the car pollutes like crazy, and not just the driving. The manufacturing, the dismantling, the noise, and some parts like tyres cannot be disposed of without a lot more pollution. We dont need them, we just think we do, and we are attached. Ok maybe a car for preachers, but they should be good! > > Was Srila Prabhupada enoph aware of what it means to live a family life in > this "modern" times in the west especialy when he proposed for his > disciples the VAD goal of Simple living - High thinking? Srila Prabhupada was a pure devotee, paramahamsa, mahabhagavata, uttama adhikary, and last but not least, nitya siddha!. Lord Krsna dictated everything he wrote in his books. I think he was aware! > Was he doing it himself during his family life? We know he himself was > doing buisness and quite succesfully for some time, acording to > capitalistic principles in order to maintain his family. Was this Simple > living - High thinking acording to varnasrama or a necesity to survive in > this time? Srila Prabhupada was alone, he worked in India where at that time, life was a lot simpler than it is now. Varnasrama requires the co-operation of many people. He wanted us to do it. We know also he was a follower of Gandhis movement in his joung > days. Was Ghandi trying to establish VAD principles in his village comunes > like in South Africa or India? Many of Gandhis ideas were good, but he did not put Krsna in the center. > > > From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that > > one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in > > capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is > > proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather > > subsistence. > > What answers would Prabhupada give to my above questions in regard of > subsistence in this days? Does man live from bred alone... Prabhupada says that by digging the earth, one can grow nice food grains, vegetables, and keep cows, which produce milk, ghee, yoghurt etc. By combining these one can produce many very nice eatables to offer the Lord. Cotton, and castor also come from the soil, from which we can produce cloth, and oil for lamps. Everything man needs can be got from the soil, by the Lords perfect arrangement. Prabhupada has described modern society as 'soul killing' because we have to spend so much time maintaining things we do not need. We can grow all we need, and have plenty of time for Spiritual advancement. That is the point. YS Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote: > [Text 2623466 from COM] > > > Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and > > foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something > > without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will > > this be succesfull? > > I dont think it is that difficult, its just that we dont want to do it. > Prabhupada says it can be done, that we have the intelligence, and that we > will be happy. Have you got the new book yet? I dont have it either (no one > from the archives responds, can anyone tell me how to get a copy?) but from > what I understand, it will answer a lot of the questions. > > Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this > > democratic capitalistic society we are living in? > > Yep, Srila Prabhupada says he wanted to introduce it, and that we can do it; > right now. > > > But on the other hand > > who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a > > seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. > > VAD life is not poverty, in fact it is real wealth. Being in control of the > means of production, and having time for Krsna Consciousness, will give us > access to the highest pleasure, the sort of pleasure no millionaire will be > able to have in a long time (unless he surrenders to Krsna). There are a few > devotees, and it is up to those few to make it work. Maybe once we have a > few positive examples, others will jump aboard. Really I think we are afraid > of the simplicity, but the actual fact is that simplicity need not be > hardship. Simplicity can be very nice, it is a matter of attitude. Physicaly > it does not have to be uncomfortable. > > Prabhupadas > > Simple living - High thinking can be endeed for many of us far to "simple" > > to put it in practice. Apart from the spiritual side, is the man living > > from bred alone? A family in order to live a decent life needs a house or > > apartment for shelter, needs furniture, clothing, in this modern days one > > would need ashurances for disease etc. make provisions for the retirament > > age of its members. > > It all depends on what you consider a decent life. Sure it will be tough to > make the change, but then for many of us the decision to join ISKCON was a > tough one, hard choices. All the things you mentioned can be got in a simple > life, except maybe the insurance. But if we are really Krsnas bhaktas and > are relying on him, what better insurance can you get? Best is to lead a > healthy life. (This is not a reccomendation for our Temples to not insure > their property, in a situation where we cannot rely on the community to > help, insurance is a good thing, the Amish dont have insurance). > > > Another very, very costly luxury but neverless practical for living is a > > car for traveling here and there. > > A survey was done on how much time a person needs to spend working to > maintain a car, this was compared to the amount of distance covered in the > car. It turns out that the amount of time spent working to keep the car > going, becomes equal to walking speed. Well, evn if that is a little over stated, I can say that there is a devotee in NV who lives in Cameron and works in NV. He is over 40 incidentally. He has kept in shape and always kept up with a bicycle. At one point, his aging car required a lot of repairs, so he gave it up and started pedaling the one hour each way, with the understanding like Samba is citing. He still pedals by regularly. What to speak of the long term ill effects of a sedentary lifestyle. If excercise were a drug, it would be considered a breakthrough, it is so beneficial. In any case, VAD is a direction to go, less than a destination to either be at or not be at. While the ideal is to at least grow most of your own food, it is not an all or nothing. The question is more, am I complacent with not growing my own food, or am I working towards it. If I eat only at fast food restaurants, then progress would be to eat at local Mom and Pop restaurants. If I eat at restaurants, then progress would be to eat prepared foods at home, or to caryy a lunch to work. If I eat prepared foods, then progress would be to buy foodstuff at the supermarket and cook my own food. If I buy at the supermarket, then progress would be to buy locally grown items from farmer's markets. If I buy at farmer's markets, then progress would be to buy from devotee grower's. If I buy from devotee grower's, then progress would be to grow a little of my own food. If I grow a little of my own food, then progress would be to grow more of my own food. It's a direction. Complacency is the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote: > [Text 2623466 from COM] > > > Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and > > foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something > > without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will > > this be succesfull? > > I dont think it is that difficult, its just that we dont want to do it. > Prabhupada says it can be done, that we have the intelligence, and that we > will be happy. Have you got the new book yet? I dont have it either (no one > from the archives responds, can anyone tell me how to get a copy?) but from > what I understand, it will answer a lot of the questions. > > Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this > > democratic capitalistic society we are living in? > > Yep, Srila Prabhupada says he wanted to introduce it, and that we can do it; > right now. > > > But on the other hand > > who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a > > seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. > > VAD life is not poverty, in fact it is real wealth. Being in control of the > means of production, and having time for Krsna Consciousness, will give us > access to the highest pleasure, the sort of pleasure no millionaire will be > able to have in a long time (unless he surrenders to Krsna). There are a few > devotees, and it is up to those few to make it work. Maybe once we have a > few positive examples, others will jump aboard. Really I think we are afraid > of the simplicity, but the actual fact is that simplicity need not be > hardship. Simplicity can be very nice, it is a matter of attitude. Physicaly > it does not have to be uncomfortable. > > Prabhupadas > > Simple living - High thinking can be endeed for many of us far to "simple" > > to put it in practice. Apart from the spiritual side, is the man living > > from bred alone? A family in order to live a decent life needs a house or > > apartment for shelter, needs furniture, clothing, in this modern days one > > would need ashurances for disease etc. make provisions for the retirament > > age of its members. > > It all depends on what you consider a decent life. Sure it will be tough to > make the change, but then for many of us the decision to join ISKCON was a > tough one, hard choices. All the things you mentioned can be got in a simple > life, except maybe the insurance. But if we are really Krsnas bhaktas and > are relying on him, what better insurance can you get? Best is to lead a > healthy life. (This is not a reccomendation for our Temples to not insure > their property, in a situation where we cannot rely on the community to > help, insurance is a good thing, the Amish dont have insurance). > > > Another very, very costly luxury but neverless practical for living is a > > car for traveling here and there. > > A survey was done on how much time a person needs to spend working to > maintain a car, this was compared to the amount of distance covered in the > car. It turns out that the amount of time spent working to keep the car > going, becomes equal to walking speed. Well, evn if that is a little over stated, I can say that there is a devotee in NV who lives in Cameron and works in NV. He is over 40 incidentally. He has kept in shape and always kept up with a bicycle. At one point, his aging car required a lot of repairs, so he gave it up and started pedaling the one hour each way, with the understanding like Samba is citing. He still pedals by regularly. What to speak of the long term ill effects of a sedentary lifestyle. If excercise were a drug, it would be considered a breakthrough, it is so beneficial. In any case, VAD is a direction to go, less than a destination to either be at or not be at. While the ideal is to at least grow most of your own food, it is not an all or nothing. The question is more, am I complacent with not growing my own food, or am I working towards it. If I eat only at fast food restaurants, then progress would be to eat at local Mom and Pop restaurants. If I eat at restaurants, then progress would be to eat prepared foods at home, or to caryy a lunch to work. If I eat prepared foods, then progress would be to buy foodstuff at the supermarket and cook my own food. If I buy at the supermarket, then progress would be to buy locally grown items from farmer's markets. If I buy at farmer's markets, then progress would be to buy from devotee grower's. If I buy from devotee grower's, then progress would be to grow a little of my own food. If I grow a little of my own food, then progress would be to grow more of my own food. It's a direction. Complacency is the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 13 Sep 1999, Samba das wrote: > > Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and > > foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something > > without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will > > this be succesfull? > > I dont think it is that difficult, its just that we dont want to do it. > Prabhupada says it can be done, that we have the intelligence, and that we > will be happy. Have you got the new book yet? I dont have it either (no one > from the archives responds, can anyone tell me how to get a copy?) but from > what I understand, it will answer a lot of the questions. Samba Prabhu, by some mistake or Krsna's arrangement I happened upon this discussion. It is very nice to hear you again, after our beneficial association in Mauritius this summer. I also would like to get this book; let me know, too, how to get it once you find out. But the main reason I am writing you is because I have been receiving the strongest intuitions that Srila Prabhupada is desperately wanting us to develop our really self-sufficient communities now. That means NOW! I was in Pakistan for most of June, and parts of July, August and September, and I can tell you without any doubt that, were it not for intervention by spiritual forces, there definitely would have been an atomic war between Pakistan and India this summer. As far as I can understand, the reason that this war was prevented--which no doubt would have gradually (if not quickly) escalated into a world war, is mainly that we simply are not ready for it. That means we have not yet developed our self-sufficient communities. > Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this > > democratic capitalistic society we are living in? > > Yep, Srila Prabhupada says he wanted to introduce it, and that we can do it; > right now. Yes, RIGHT NOW! We do not know how short time is. Rather, the time is past, but by Srila Prabhupada's mercy we have been given another chance. > > But on the other hand > > who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a > > seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. > > VAD life is not poverty, in fact it is real wealth. Being in control of the > means of production, and having time for Krsna Consciousness, will give us > access to the highest pleasure, the sort of pleasure no millionaire will be > able to have in a long time (unless he surrenders to Krsna). There are a few > devotees, and it is up to those few to make it work. Maybe once we have a > few positive examples, others will jump aboard. Really I think we are afraid > of the simplicity, but the actual fact is that simplicity need not be > hardship. Simplicity can be very nice, it is a matter of attitude. Physicaly > it does not have to be uncomfortable. Thank you for reminding us. Yes, each one of us really has to become determined now to take whatever steps we can, and it needs to be some major steps, towards simple living and high thinking. We must remember that the only way to establish the practicality and reality of Krsna consciousness is by showing that our devotees are happy living a simple life, with full self-sufficiency. That is, every temple or community of devotees that does not want to become controlled by the materialistic system must soon develop a way to live independently of the articial economy. We must have our own land, our own sources of water, our own power (even if only cow-dung patties for cooking and animal power for plowing and transport, and oil for lighting), and our own building materials (wood, or at least earth). We must soon be growing all our own food, having our own cows and sheep (for wool), and soon we will need to be growing our own raw materials for and making our own thread and weaving our own cloth. You are certainly correct when you say, >Sure it will be tough to > make the change, but then for many of us the decision to join ISKCON was a > tough one, hard choices. And, Hare Krsna dasi has really hit the nail on the head when she writes, > > > From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that > > > one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in > > > capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is > > > proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather > > > subsistence. Soon enough we will all be forced to either live a subsistence way of life, or sell our souls to a system based on unforgiving materialism. I repeat that this definitely should have already happened this summer in South Asia, as it has been going on for some time in certain places, such as Iraq and parts of the Balkans, and it now may be no more than a year or two for the rest of us, too, unless we get another undeserved reprieve. > > What answers would Prabhupada give to my above questions in regard of > > subsistence in this days? Does man live from bred alone... > > Prabhupada says that by digging the earth, one can grow nice food grains, > vegetables, and keep cows, which produce milk, ghee, yoghurt etc. By > combining these one can produce many very nice eatables to offer the Lord. > Cotton, and castor also come from the soil, from which we can produce cloth, > and oil for lamps. Everything man needs can be got from the soil, by the > Lords perfect arrangement. Prabhupada has described modern society as 'soul > killing' because we have to spend so much time maintaining things we do not > need. We can grow all we need, and have plenty of time for Spiritual > advancement. That is the point. Jai, Samba Prabhu! And thanks again for reminding us that we really have to start doing something NOW. At the very least, we all need to start praying very desperately to Srila Prabhupada for the intelligence and determination to understand and implement his divine instructions about developing rural communities that are neither meant for making money nor that depend on anything at all from outside. Yr servant, Amoghalila das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 1999 Report Share Posted October 3, 1999 On 13 Sep 1999, Samba das wrote: > > Endeed for developing or understanding VAD corectly we need first and > > foremost such analytical study of this matter. To just "do" something > > without the deep understanding of what a VAD economy or society means will > > this be succesfull? > > I dont think it is that difficult, its just that we dont want to do it. > Prabhupada says it can be done, that we have the intelligence, and that we > will be happy. Have you got the new book yet? I dont have it either (no one > from the archives responds, can anyone tell me how to get a copy?) but from > what I understand, it will answer a lot of the questions. Samba Prabhu, by some mistake or Krsna's arrangement I happened upon this discussion. It is very nice to hear you again, after our beneficial association in Mauritius this summer. I also would like to get this book; let me know, too, how to get it once you find out. But the main reason I am writing you is because I have been receiving the strongest intuitions that Srila Prabhupada is desperately wanting us to develop our really self-sufficient communities now. That means NOW! I was in Pakistan for most of June, and parts of July, August and September, and I can tell you without any doubt that, were it not for intervention by spiritual forces, there definitely would have been an atomic war between Pakistan and India this summer. As far as I can understand, the reason that this war was prevented--which no doubt would have gradually (if not quickly) escalated into a world war, is mainly that we simply are not ready for it. That means we have not yet developed our self-sufficient communities. > Can a VAD society be developed on the basis of this > > democratic capitalistic society we are living in? > > Yep, Srila Prabhupada says he wanted to introduce it, and that we can do it; > right now. Yes, RIGHT NOW! We do not know how short time is. Rather, the time is past, but by Srila Prabhupada's mercy we have been given another chance. > > But on the other hand > > who is willing to renounce this kind of society completely and live a > > seemingly poverty striken life in a VAD society and economy. > > VAD life is not poverty, in fact it is real wealth. Being in control of the > means of production, and having time for Krsna Consciousness, will give us > access to the highest pleasure, the sort of pleasure no millionaire will be > able to have in a long time (unless he surrenders to Krsna). There are a few > devotees, and it is up to those few to make it work. Maybe once we have a > few positive examples, others will jump aboard. Really I think we are afraid > of the simplicity, but the actual fact is that simplicity need not be > hardship. Simplicity can be very nice, it is a matter of attitude. Physicaly > it does not have to be uncomfortable. Thank you for reminding us. Yes, each one of us really has to become determined now to take whatever steps we can, and it needs to be some major steps, towards simple living and high thinking. We must remember that the only way to establish the practicality and reality of Krsna consciousness is by showing that our devotees are happy living a simple life, with full self-sufficiency. That is, every temple or community of devotees that does not want to become controlled by the materialistic system must soon develop a way to live independently of the articial economy. We must have our own land, our own sources of water, our own power (even if only cow-dung patties for cooking and animal power for plowing and transport, and oil for lighting), and our own building materials (wood, or at least earth). We must soon be growing all our own food, having our own cows and sheep (for wool), and soon we will need to be growing our own raw materials for and making our own thread and weaving our own cloth. You are certainly correct when you say, >Sure it will be tough to > make the change, but then for many of us the decision to join ISKCON was a > tough one, hard choices. And, Hare Krsna dasi has really hit the nail on the head when she writes, > > > From reading Srila Prabhupada and the Gandhian economists -- I feel that > > > one key element to our failure is that we automatically think in > > > capitalist terms. We have failed to grasp that Srila Prabhupada is > > > proposing a model which is neither communist or capitalist, but rather > > > subsistence. Soon enough we will all be forced to either live a subsistence way of life, or sell our souls to a system based on unforgiving materialism. I repeat that this definitely should have already happened this summer in South Asia, as it has been going on for some time in certain places, such as Iraq and parts of the Balkans, and it now may be no more than a year or two for the rest of us, too, unless we get another undeserved reprieve. > > What answers would Prabhupada give to my above questions in regard of > > subsistence in this days? Does man live from bred alone... > > Prabhupada says that by digging the earth, one can grow nice food grains, > vegetables, and keep cows, which produce milk, ghee, yoghurt etc. By > combining these one can produce many very nice eatables to offer the Lord. > Cotton, and castor also come from the soil, from which we can produce cloth, > and oil for lamps. Everything man needs can be got from the soil, by the > Lords perfect arrangement. Prabhupada has described modern society as 'soul > killing' because we have to spend so much time maintaining things we do not > need. We can grow all we need, and have plenty of time for Spiritual > advancement. That is the point. Jai, Samba Prabhu! And thanks again for reminding us that we really have to start doing something NOW. At the very least, we all need to start praying very desperately to Srila Prabhupada for the intelligence and determination to understand and implement his divine instructions about developing rural communities that are neither meant for making money nor that depend on anything at all from outside. Yr servant, Amoghalila das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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