Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 Hare Krishna, This thread touches on how varnas are determined and selected: A few thoughts: In the Gunguli 12-volume translation of Maha Bharata, Bhima is asked a question, "How is a person's varna to be determined?" Answer, "Varna cannot be determined by birth. There has been so much inter-marriage between brahmans, ksyatrias, vaishas, and sudras that no one can claim to be born into a particular varna. Therefore a person's varna can only be known by his actions." So much for birth and family connections. How does this affect our devotees? Srila Prabhupada said in one letter, "You are all members of unknown mixed castes." We can't manage our way into Varnashrama. Who can tell someone else what their varna is? I doubt it would even be wise for a guru to make such a determination. Free will and demonstrated behavior should be the governing mechanism. The brahmana's job is to educate everyone on the duties and privileges of each varna. For example: brahmanas can accept charity, but they should not accept employment. Sudras must take directions from the other varnas, but have the privilege of not being burdened with much responsibility. Individuals who want to take part in varnashrama need to learn what are the activities of the different varnas. They must then choose were they feel they fit in best. Ksyatrias have the responsibility to ensure that everyone performs their duties according to the position in society they have chosen. In practice, we will see that a person's varnic position may change several times within this lifetime. Of course, pure devotees may act according to the rules for any varna they may choose--according to whatever is needed for the service of Guru and Krishna. But it should be noted that even such advanced souls do not cast aside varnashrama principles and thereby disturb the minds of others by setting a poor example. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Monday, August 23, 1999 7:15 PM COM: Practical Varnasrama Re: "Varnasrama college" [Text 2577971 from COM] > > > We really need a brahmin to sort this out. Who can we rope in? Well, I don't want to fan the embers of a long dormant debate, but IMHO, we won't have a real brahman until there is a vaisya class supporting and feeding him. In the meantime, we have to make do with who and what we have. For instance, if a young man were to come to me now, and say, I feel I am a ksatriya, what should I do? Obviously, ISKCON is not ready to fully engage him just yet. So my advice would be as follows (sorry for the USA centric advice, but that is what I know) : Join the US Marine Corp Reserve. Opt for Military Police school. In 6 months, you are back on the street with some discipline and some decent training. Join a martial arts school when you get out, for continued discipline and training. Use the GI bill to help go to college. That and the pay from the weekend a month, will help defray the cost. Get either an MBA or a lawyer's degree (whatever that is called). While all this is going on, keep close relationship with a pragmatic brahman type to advise and encourage you. (no fanatic self righteous ones, as that will hinder your progress). someone who would write you 2-3 letters a week during your boot camp and training. Establish a relationship with other gurukulis or bhaktas who have already been in the military or still are. Like maybe a COM conference. Another source of advice and guidance. Get the suggested reading list from Hare Krsna dasi (hopefully off the web site CIVIL.edu) and read all those books. Hopefully by the time he passes the bar exam(or whatever MBAs do), there will be a village for him to move to with an economic base to sustain a population. There, as a sideline, he could teach martial arts to supplement his income. Whatever. > > > So I wonder if we need to do a lot more resarch, or just wait for these > books to be published, and then just take them, and think, OK how do we do > this now, instead of trying to write all the rules now. > > Whadya think? > > I hope this doesnt throw a damper on the whole thing. > > YS The cow conference spent over a year evolving the Cow Standards. There was a facilitator (Mother Chaya) who, after a rough outline was generated, sort of guided the discussion along. A topic would be brought up, discusssed for a while, then finalized, and another one brought up. sometimes 2-3 going at the smae time, but pretty focused. the outline itself also changed as time went on. That was done with people who had 20 + years experience working with the subject. Unfortunately, we won't have that experience to draw on when we start talking about land allocation and starting a nontraditional educational system, so patience is going to be a necesssity. Hopefully there are some mature devotees here who have seen that the crisis management quick fix bandaids that have been the status quo for the last 20 years haven't been successful in the long run. So patience is going to be a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 Hare Krishna, This thread touches on how varnas are determined and selected: A few thoughts: In the Gunguli 12-volume translation of Maha Bharata, Bhima is asked a question, "How is a person's varna to be determined?" Answer, "Varna cannot be determined by birth. There has been so much inter-marriage between brahmans, ksyatrias, vaishas, and sudras that no one can claim to be born into a particular varna. Therefore a person's varna can only be known by his actions." So much for birth and family connections. How does this affect our devotees? Srila Prabhupada said in one letter, "You are all members of unknown mixed castes." We can't manage our way into Varnashrama. Who can tell someone else what their varna is? I doubt it would even be wise for a guru to make such a determination. Free will and demonstrated behavior should be the governing mechanism. The brahmana's job is to educate everyone on the duties and privileges of each varna. For example: brahmanas can accept charity, but they should not accept employment. Sudras must take directions from the other varnas, but have the privilege of not being burdened with much responsibility. Individuals who want to take part in varnashrama need to learn what are the activities of the different varnas. They must then choose were they feel they fit in best. Ksyatrias have the responsibility to ensure that everyone performs their duties according to the position in society they have chosen. In practice, we will see that a person's varnic position may change several times within this lifetime. Of course, pure devotees may act according to the rules for any varna they may choose--according to whatever is needed for the service of Guru and Krishna. But it should be noted that even such advanced souls do not cast aside varnashrama principles and thereby disturb the minds of others by setting a poor example. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Monday, August 23, 1999 7:15 PM COM: Practical Varnasrama Re: "Varnasrama college" [Text 2577971 from COM] > > > We really need a brahmin to sort this out. Who can we rope in? Well, I don't want to fan the embers of a long dormant debate, but IMHO, we won't have a real brahman until there is a vaisya class supporting and feeding him. In the meantime, we have to make do with who and what we have. For instance, if a young man were to come to me now, and say, I feel I am a ksatriya, what should I do? Obviously, ISKCON is not ready to fully engage him just yet. So my advice would be as follows (sorry for the USA centric advice, but that is what I know) : Join the US Marine Corp Reserve. Opt for Military Police school. In 6 months, you are back on the street with some discipline and some decent training. Join a martial arts school when you get out, for continued discipline and training. Use the GI bill to help go to college. That and the pay from the weekend a month, will help defray the cost. Get either an MBA or a lawyer's degree (whatever that is called). While all this is going on, keep close relationship with a pragmatic brahman type to advise and encourage you. (no fanatic self righteous ones, as that will hinder your progress). someone who would write you 2-3 letters a week during your boot camp and training. Establish a relationship with other gurukulis or bhaktas who have already been in the military or still are. Like maybe a COM conference. Another source of advice and guidance. Get the suggested reading list from Hare Krsna dasi (hopefully off the web site CIVIL.edu) and read all those books. Hopefully by the time he passes the bar exam(or whatever MBAs do), there will be a village for him to move to with an economic base to sustain a population. There, as a sideline, he could teach martial arts to supplement his income. Whatever. > > > So I wonder if we need to do a lot more resarch, or just wait for these > books to be published, and then just take them, and think, OK how do we do > this now, instead of trying to write all the rules now. > > Whadya think? > > I hope this doesnt throw a damper on the whole thing. > > YS The cow conference spent over a year evolving the Cow Standards. There was a facilitator (Mother Chaya) who, after a rough outline was generated, sort of guided the discussion along. A topic would be brought up, discusssed for a while, then finalized, and another one brought up. sometimes 2-3 going at the smae time, but pretty focused. the outline itself also changed as time went on. That was done with people who had 20 + years experience working with the subject. Unfortunately, we won't have that experience to draw on when we start talking about land allocation and starting a nontraditional educational system, so patience is going to be a necesssity. Hopefully there are some mature devotees here who have seen that the crisis management quick fix bandaids that have been the status quo for the last 20 years haven't been successful in the long run. So patience is going to be a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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