Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 Re: "Varnasrama college" According to Srila Prabhupada, the guru determines one's varna -- especially in light of the fact that Prabhupada states that Vedic viddhi [as presented in Manu Samhita for example] can no longer be used reliably to determine varna in this age. This seems to be a point which is nearly impossible to accept in ISKCON because our initiating gurus are so often more like administrative officials with hundreds and hundreds of disciples -- so how could such a guru be relied on to tell a disciple his proper varna? Even more puzzling is the rtvik proposal that only Prabhupada can be guru -- in such a case, how could Prabhupada tell new disciples what their varna is? I think in the future things will evolve to be more like the tradition in our line when many gurus have only a few disciples (Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji had only one disciple, for example). But that is beyond the scope of the present discussion. Even though Srila Prabhupada states time and time again (especially SB 5.19.19) that the guru will determine the disciple's varna, it is extremely difficult for us to accept such advice from Prabhupada, because as circumstances worked out, he himself rarely ever (with some exceptions) advised his own disciples on what occupations would be most suitable for them. For those who accept that Srila Prabhupada planned to come to America to set up varnasrama, the answer seems obvious: He planned to begin that practice as part of setting up varnasrama. For the rest, his instruction that the guru gives varna guidance remains an enigma. In addition to Srila Prabhupada's general advice that the guru will ascertain the disciple's varna, there is also one occasion (New Orleans) in which he indicates that such a decision will be worked out with the devotees and their community. (Possibly the devotee would approach community members whom he regarded with enough trust to consider his siksa gurus.) Following your letter are samples of Prabhupada's instructions that the guru will ascertain the varna of a disciple. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi "COM: Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote: > [Text 2599273 from COM] > > Hare Krishna, > > This thread touches on how varnas are determined and selected: A few > thoughts: > > In the Gunguli 12-volume translation of Maha Bharata, Bhima is asked a > question, "How is a person's varna to be determined?" Answer, "Varna cannot > be determined by birth. There has been so much inter-marriage between > brahmans, ksyatrias, vaishas, and sudras that no one can claim to be born > into a particular varna. Therefore a person's varna can only be known by his > actions." > > So much for birth and family connections. How does this affect our > devotees? Srila Prabhupada said in one letter, "You are all members of > unknown mixed castes." > > We can't manage our way into Varnashrama. Who can tell someone else what > their varna is? I doubt it would even be wise for a guru to make such a > determination. Free will and demonstrated behavior should be the governing > mechanism. > > The brahmana's job is to educate everyone on the duties and privileges of > each varna. For example: brahmanas can accept charity, but they should not > accept employment. Sudras must take directions from the other varnas, but > have the privilege of not being burdened with much responsibility. > > Individuals who want to take part in varnashrama need to learn what are > the activities of the different varnas. They must then choose were they feel > they fit in best. Ksyatrias have the responsibility to ensure that everyone > performs their duties according to the position in society they have chosen. > > In practice, we will see that a person's varnic position may change > several times within this lifetime. > > Of course, pure devotees may act according to the rules for any varna > they may choose--according to whatever is needed for the service of Guru and > Krishna. But it should be noted that even such advanced souls do not cast > aside varnashrama principles and thereby disturb the minds of others by > setting a poor example. > > Your servant, > Sri Rama das > > [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or > [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] > 5. Everyone must know his varna. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 5: Chapter One, Text 14 :PURPORT It is best, therefore, to accept the injunctions of the Vedas, which are mentioned in this verse as yad-vaci. In accordance with those injunctions, everyone should find out whether he is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra and should thus be educated accordingly. Then his life will be successful. Otherwise, all of human society will be confused. Madhya-lila: Chapter Eight, Text 58 :PURPORT Every man should perform his occupational duty in the light of his particular tendency. According to his abilities, one shouid accept a position in the varnasrama institution. The divisions of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra are natural divisions within society. Indeed, everyone has a prescribed duty according to the varnasrama-dharma. Those who properly execute their prescribed duties live peacefully and are not disturbed by material conditions. 6. Who decides a devotee's varna -- the devotee? his parents? the community organizer? NO, the Spiritual Master decides the varna. Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750729SB.DAL This is the process. First of all find out whom you like to accept as guru. Then put question. But sometimes we have to talk with persons who is not student, outsider. That is preaching work. But sastra says that one should approach a guru, and with surrender he would ask him, and guru will talk with a person who is surrendered. Otherwise, there is no necessity of talk because he will not accept. One who has come to challenge the guru, so he will simply waste time. He will not accept. But a disciple who has surrendered, he will accept. Therefore talking is recommended between guru and disciple, not outsider. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet. This is essential. And guru trains the disciple according to the Vedic principle. Therefore there are division of varna and asrama. So these are very scientific things. The whole world is unaware of these scientific things, this animal civilization, and this Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate to the standard of human being. Evening Darshan Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC Guest (3): Your Grace, may I ask a question? Before I asked about a man not knowing what his duty was, and you spoke of the highest duty of giving up all to Krsna and becoming detached from the fruits of your action. But suppose the question is: What shall I become--a shopkeeper, a teacher, a carpenter? Prabhupada: In any condition, you can surrender yourself to Krsna. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya. Guest (3): Yes, but it sounds like it doesn't matter what I do as long as I dedicate my action to Krsna. Prabhupada: Therefore you require spiritual master to guide you. Guest (3): So I cannot know myself. Prabhupada: That is not possible. Guest (3): And intuition does not help. Prabhupada: Intuition is wrong. It is a practice. A thief thinks "I should steal." His intuition says. He's practiced to steal and intuition says "You steal." That is not guide. Intuition means that things which you are practiced, that's all. You are accustomed, that's all... Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly? Prabhupada: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the sastra, brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam... Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (3): But that's what my question is, how does one know. Prabhupada: Then you have to go to the... Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet. Just like we were discussing Sanatana Gosvami, he has gone to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he said, "Sir, You have brought me from the entanglement of family life. Now tell me what is my duty." So that discussion is going on. So you should approach guru and take instruction from him what is, how to act. ....Devotee (4): Must initiation be there, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Initiation must be there. Otherwise, how you'll be guided? Morning Walk Hyderabad, April 20, 1974 740420MW.HYD Pancadravida: How do you teach a varnasrama college? In varnasrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be ksatriya" or "I want to be vaisya." Is it like that? Prabhupada: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru. Science of Self Realization: Chapter Six :Finding Spiritual Solutions to Material Problems Today practically everyone is getting a college education. But what is taught at these colleges? Mostly technical knowledge, which is sudra education. Real higher education means learning Vedic wisdom. This is meant for the brahmanas. Alone, sudra education leads to a chaotic condition. Everyone should be tested to find out which education he is suited for. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 5: Chapter Nineteen, Text 19 :TRANSLATION TRANSLATION The people who take birth in this tract of land are divided according to the qualities of material nature--the modes of goodness [sattva-guna], passion [rajo-guna], and ignorance [tamo-guna]. Some of them are born as exalted personalities, some are ordinary human beings, and some are extremely abominable, for in Bharata-varsa one takes birth exactly according to one's past karma. If one's position is ascertained by a bona fide spiritual master and one is properly trained to engage in the service of Lord Visnu according to the four social divisions [brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra] and the four spiritual divisions [brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa], one's life becomes perfect. 7. The guru doesn't decide the devotee's varna by a magical process, he also takes into account the feelings expressed by the devotee. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Eight, Text 35 :TRANSLATION TRANSLATION Dhruva Maharaja said: My dear Lord Naradaji, for a person whose heart is disturbed by the material conditions of happiness and distress, whatever you have so kindly explained for attainment of peace of mind is certainly a very good instruction. But as far as I am concerned, I am covered by ignorance, and this kind of philosophy does not touch my heart. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Eight, Text 36 :TRANSLATION TRANSLATION My dear lord, I am very impudent for not accepting your instructions, but this is not my fault. It is due to my having been born in a ksatriya family. My stepmother, Suruci, has pierced my heart with her harsh words. Therefore your valuable instruction does not stand in my heart. :PURPORT Dhruva Maharaja indirectly informed the great sage Narada that there are four kinds of human spirit--the brahminical spirit, the ksatriya spirit, the vaisya spirit and the sudra spirit. The spirit of one caste is not applicable to the members of another. The philosophical spirit enunciated by Narada Muni might have been suitable for a brahmana spirit, but it was not suitable for a ksatriya. Dhruva frankly admitted that he was lacking in brahminical humility and was therefore unable to accept the philosophy of Narada Muni. The statements of Dhruva Maharaja indicate that unless a child is trained according to his tendency, there is no possibility of his developing his particular spirit. It was the duty of the spiritual master or teacher to observe the psychological movement of a particular boy and thus train him in a particular occupational duty. Dhruva Maharaja, having already been trained in the ksatriya spirit, would not accept the brahminical philosophy. 8. Even taking into account the devotee's input in determination of his varna, in the final analysis, it is essential that the devotee execute his occupational duty under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-one, Text 33 :PURPORT The question may be raised that since the Lord is supposed to be worshiped by great demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and others, how can an ordinary human being on this planet serve Him? This is clearly explained by Prthu Maharaja by the use of the word yatha-dhikara, "according to one's ability." If one sincerely executes his occupational duty, that will be sufficient. One does not need to become like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Indra, Lord Caitanya or Ramanujacarya, whose capabilities are certainly far above ours. Even a sudra, who is in the lowest stage of life according to the material qualities, can achieve the same success. Anyone can become successful in devotional service provided he displays no duplicity. It is explained here that one must be very frank and open-minded (amayinah). To be situated in a lower status of life is not a disqualification for success in devotional service. The only qualification is that whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, he must be open, frank and free from reservations. Then, by performing his particular occupational duty under the guidance of a proper spiritual master, he can achieve the highest success in life. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 7: Chapter Fifteen, Text 67 :PURPORT "O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination." It does not matter what one's position is; if one aims at reaching Krsna by performing his occupational duty under the direction of the spiritual master, his life is successful. Prabhupada's Lectures Nectar of Devotion 1973 730125ND.CAL So it is, it is the spiritual master's business to see the disciple, in which way he has got the tendency. And he tries to utilize his natural tendency in the matter of serving Krsna. One has got tendency for a certain thing. That tendency can be engaged in Krsna's service also. It is not difficult. Simply it requires training and guidance. Sva karmana tam abhyarcya, sam siddhi labhate narah. One has got a particular tendency to work. By that work, if it is nicely done, you can satisfy Krsna. Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1974 741021SB.MAY Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. Guna, not everyone is qualified in the same way. Therefore you... The acarya will pick up that "They are meant for becoming brahmanas. They are meant for ksatriyas." Room Conversation Bombay, September 21, 1973 730921R2.BOM Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana." Everyone has got some tendency. >From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work. Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into brahmana, fortunately, then you become brahmana. Prabhupada: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not sastra. That is a... Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father's training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Prabhupada's Lectures General - 1969 690327RN.HAW Guru-grha means teacher's house. Formerly, for being trained, there was no such big scale school and colleges. Every village... Still, fifty years before in India, in every village there was a small school conducted by the brahmana, and the village children would be trained up there. So he was sent for training. And there was no school fee. The boys will go there, and on behalf of the teacher or spiritual master, they will go, brahmacari, door to door, and beg and bring forth alms, rice, dahl, grains, and everything. That was the system. There was no school fee. There was no problem how to send a boy to the school. Samskara. Now he's trained up. The teacher sees the psychology of the boy, in which way he should be trained. Either he should be trained as a vaisya or he should be trained as a ksatriya. So everyone was trained like that, but generally, the son of a ksatriya... Just like Maharaja Ramacandra or Arjuna, from the very beginning they were trained as ksatriya. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 5: Chapter Nineteen, Text 19 :PURPORT "The Supreme personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Lord." In the land of Bharata-varsa, the institution of varnasrama-dharma may be easily adopted. At the present moment, certain demoniac sections of the population of Bharatavarsa are disregarding the system of varnasrama-dharma. Because there is no institution to teach people how to become brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras or brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis, these demons want a classless society. This is resulting in chaotic conditions. In the name of secular government, unqualified people are taking the supreme governmental posts. No one is being trained to act according to the principles of varnasrama-dharma, and thus people are becoming increasingly degraded and are heading in the direction of animal life. The real aim of life is liberation, but unfortunately the opportunity for liberation is being denied to people in general, and therefore their human lives are being spoiled. The Krsna consciousness movement, however, is being propagated all over the world to reestablish the varnasrama-dharma system and thus save human society from gliding down to hellish life. ************************************ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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