Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 Haribol Jaya Lalita Mataji PAMHO Thankyou very much for your comment in this regard. A very reasonable and learned way of explaining basic understandings of Varnasrama economy and way of life. I alowed myself to share it with others in our VAD conference. Hope you don,t mind. I think more coments by you would be greatly welcome in this conference. Ys, Harsi das Jaya Lalita dd. wrote: "I think that you were responding to Hare Krsna's use of the phrase...not capitalistm, not marxist, but subsistence. We have spent much of the last 10 years discussing this. I think she would not disapprove of my speaking for her. Her use of subsistence does not imply living like a caveman, rather that we go about producing for our own needs. Extra can be sold or bartered; not that we plan to produce and sell large quantities in the market and keep some for our own use. Hare Krsna dasi's point is that we should not deliberately develop the capitalist (or the marxist) mentality. You are correct, some leakages will be there, but minimize them to spend time on development of varnasrama, not material comforts. We should use our time budget wisely and minimize the material entanglement required by long-term time payments.A mortgage (or rent) and a car are the two biggest expenses an individual will incur in his/her lifetime. Holding a mortgage is in direct contrast to the concept of developing even the most basic self-sufficient plan. It requires the time for working on moneymaking projects. Time is a commodity, it has to be allotted like a budget. The more you spend on one thing, the less is available for another. It is true that under the circumstances, devotees will be unable to avoid interacting with the outside economy. For this reason, it is important that the levels of sustainability and self-sufficiency be carefully defined and outlined. It is unreasonable at this point to ask devotees to falsely renounce things like taking care of their health. Recall Srila Prabhupada saying "what is minimum for you is maximum for me". No one is expecting that we live only by breathing once each month. So some form of exchange is indeed required. But minimize the need for it. There is not a need for a purchasing a new car ever other year the way many people do. There is not a need for a 14-room mansion with all the latest technology and wall to wall carpeting. It means simply more tightening of the hard knot in the heart. Again, the point is, not to develop the hoarding mentality required by the capitalist. If we have to sell more crops to pay a mortgage, we are thinking of acquiring some market share. Acquisition of market share is for the purpose of amassing profit and can not be an integral part of a varnasrama system. In today's economy the ability to compete implies mechanization, not using oxen for plowing. Not using the oxen means we will find them burdensome. When we find them burdensome, they will be eliminated. In this way, it can be seen that the market mentality is contrary to the development of the varnasrama. Many of us, at least in the western countries, have this "more is better" greed concept deeply engrained in our mentality and are unaware of it. We simply think it is the natural way of the world. My piece on land tenure is a very simple analyis of how ownership of the land will stop one major leakage out of our intended economy. Less involvement in outside economy means more energy can be returned to development of developing Krsna Consciousness in a varnasrama setting, instead of it being siphoned off for other purposes. YS JayaLalita dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 1999 Report Share Posted September 15, 1999 Hare Krishna, This is good advice on minimizing involvement in artificial economic systems. Marxism we definitely don't want. Even though we used socialist principles in the past, perhaps we can avoid repeating that mistake. I guess we don't want capitalism--in the sense that the accumulation of capital and mass-marketing is a definite over-entanglement. Feudalism is a perverted reflection of varnasrama. However, varnashrama does work on free-market principles. Even if our communities have no interaction with the outside economy, private property ownership and mostly unrestricted trade within the community are necessary principles for a stable and vibrant economy. We need to concentrate our efforts on sustainable living, and avoid the temptation to over-control as we have in the past. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] [http://www.web-construct.net] Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Tuesday, September 14, 1999 3:04 AM COM: Practical Varnasrama Reasoning in Varnashrama [Text 2626524 from COM] Haribol Jaya Lalita Mataji PAMHO Thankyou very much for your comment in this regard. A very reasonable and learned way of explaining basic understandings of Varnasrama economy and way of life. I alowed myself to share it with others in our VAD conference. Hope you don,t mind. I think more coments by you would be greatly welcome in this conference. Ys, Harsi das Jaya Lalita dd. wrote: "I think that you were responding to Hare Krsna's use of the phrase...not capitalistm, not marxist, but subsistence. We have spent much of the last 10 years discussing this. I think she would not disapprove of my speaking for her. Her use of subsistence does not imply living like a caveman, rather that we go about producing for our own needs. Extra can be sold or bartered; not that we plan to produce and sell large quantities in the market and keep some for our own use. Hare Krsna dasi's point is that we should not deliberately develop the capitalist (or the marxist) mentality. You are correct, some leakages will be there, but minimize them to spend time on development of varnasrama, not material comforts. We should use our time budget wisely and minimize the material entanglement required by long-term time payments.A mortgage (or rent) and a car are the two biggest expenses an individual will incur in his/her lifetime. Holding a mortgage is in direct contrast to the concept of developing even the most basic self-sufficient plan. It requires the time for working on moneymaking projects. Time is a commodity, it has to be allotted like a budget. The more you spend on one thing, the less is available for another. It is true that under the circumstances, devotees will be unable to avoid interacting with the outside economy. For this reason, it is important that the levels of sustainability and self-sufficiency be carefully defined and outlined. It is unreasonable at this point to ask devotees to falsely renounce things like taking care of their health. Recall Srila Prabhupada saying "what is minimum for you is maximum for me". No one is expecting that we live only by breathing once each month. So some form of exchange is indeed required. But minimize the need for it. There is not a need for a purchasing a new car ever other year the way many people do. There is not a need for a 14-room mansion with all the latest technology and wall to wall carpeting. It means simply more tightening of the hard knot in the heart. Again, the point is, not to develop the hoarding mentality required by the capitalist. If we have to sell more crops to pay a mortgage, we are thinking of acquiring some market share. Acquisition of market share is for the purpose of amassing profit and can not be an integral part of a varnasrama system. In today's economy the ability to compete implies mechanization, not using oxen for plowing. Not using the oxen means we will find them burdensome. When we find them burdensome, they will be eliminated. In this way, it can be seen that the market mentality is contrary to the development of the varnasrama. Many of us, at least in the western countries, have this "more is better" greed concept deeply engrained in our mentality and are unaware of it. We simply think it is the natural way of the world. My piece on land tenure is a very simple analyis of how ownership of the land will stop one major leakage out of our intended economy. Less involvement in outside economy means more energy can be returned to development of developing Krsna Consciousness in a varnasrama setting, instead of it being siphoned off for other purposes. YS JayaLalita dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 1999 Report Share Posted September 15, 1999 Hare Krishna, This is good advice on minimizing involvement in artificial economic systems. Marxism we definitely don't want. Even though we used socialist principles in the past, perhaps we can avoid repeating that mistake. I guess we don't want capitalism--in the sense that the accumulation of capital and mass-marketing is a definite over-entanglement. Feudalism is a perverted reflection of varnasrama. However, varnashrama does work on free-market principles. Even if our communities have no interaction with the outside economy, private property ownership and mostly unrestricted trade within the community are necessary principles for a stable and vibrant economy. We need to concentrate our efforts on sustainable living, and avoid the temptation to over-control as we have in the past. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se] [http://www.web-construct.net] Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Tuesday, September 14, 1999 3:04 AM COM: Practical Varnasrama Reasoning in Varnashrama [Text 2626524 from COM] Haribol Jaya Lalita Mataji PAMHO Thankyou very much for your comment in this regard. A very reasonable and learned way of explaining basic understandings of Varnasrama economy and way of life. I alowed myself to share it with others in our VAD conference. Hope you don,t mind. I think more coments by you would be greatly welcome in this conference. Ys, Harsi das Jaya Lalita dd. wrote: "I think that you were responding to Hare Krsna's use of the phrase...not capitalistm, not marxist, but subsistence. We have spent much of the last 10 years discussing this. I think she would not disapprove of my speaking for her. Her use of subsistence does not imply living like a caveman, rather that we go about producing for our own needs. Extra can be sold or bartered; not that we plan to produce and sell large quantities in the market and keep some for our own use. Hare Krsna dasi's point is that we should not deliberately develop the capitalist (or the marxist) mentality. You are correct, some leakages will be there, but minimize them to spend time on development of varnasrama, not material comforts. We should use our time budget wisely and minimize the material entanglement required by long-term time payments.A mortgage (or rent) and a car are the two biggest expenses an individual will incur in his/her lifetime. Holding a mortgage is in direct contrast to the concept of developing even the most basic self-sufficient plan. It requires the time for working on moneymaking projects. Time is a commodity, it has to be allotted like a budget. The more you spend on one thing, the less is available for another. It is true that under the circumstances, devotees will be unable to avoid interacting with the outside economy. For this reason, it is important that the levels of sustainability and self-sufficiency be carefully defined and outlined. It is unreasonable at this point to ask devotees to falsely renounce things like taking care of their health. Recall Srila Prabhupada saying "what is minimum for you is maximum for me". No one is expecting that we live only by breathing once each month. So some form of exchange is indeed required. But minimize the need for it. There is not a need for a purchasing a new car ever other year the way many people do. There is not a need for a 14-room mansion with all the latest technology and wall to wall carpeting. It means simply more tightening of the hard knot in the heart. Again, the point is, not to develop the hoarding mentality required by the capitalist. If we have to sell more crops to pay a mortgage, we are thinking of acquiring some market share. Acquisition of market share is for the purpose of amassing profit and can not be an integral part of a varnasrama system. In today's economy the ability to compete implies mechanization, not using oxen for plowing. Not using the oxen means we will find them burdensome. When we find them burdensome, they will be eliminated. In this way, it can be seen that the market mentality is contrary to the development of the varnasrama. Many of us, at least in the western countries, have this "more is better" greed concept deeply engrained in our mentality and are unaware of it. We simply think it is the natural way of the world. My piece on land tenure is a very simple analyis of how ownership of the land will stop one major leakage out of our intended economy. Less involvement in outside economy means more energy can be returned to development of developing Krsna Consciousness in a varnasrama setting, instead of it being siphoned off for other purposes. YS JayaLalita dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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