Prabhupada says: Guru determines Varna? Is this siddhanta?

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

I read over your comments on the guru determining the varna of a

disciple, as well as your quotes from Srila Prabhupada. I see your points,

but I read the information in a different way. If you look again with an

open mind, you might agree there is more than one way to look at this issue.

Let's evaluate it through "guru, sadhu, sastra":

 

-- Sastra first. If I'm not mistaken, there is no statement anywhere in

the Vedic literature that states the guru selects the varna of the disciple.

 

-- Next, Sadhu. Is there any example of a guru in our sampradaya

directing the disciple to accept any particular varna? Bhaktisiddhanta never

told Srila Prabhupada to abandon his vaishya business and act as a brahman.

Rather, he gave a transcendental mission to preach Krishna consciousness in

English. There's no evidence that Bhaktivinode Thakur or Jagannatha das

Babaji gave any varna orders, either. Madhvacharya? Lord Caitanya? Lord

Brahma?

 

Krishna didn't agree with Arjuna's proposal to accept the dharma of a

renunciate. He told Arjuna to act according to the varna he was trained

in--but to do it because He wanted it that way. Of course, if guru or

Krishna orders one to act in a certain role, then that's what we should do.

Krishna's pleasure is our only goal. The issue here is not that guru or

Krishna couldn't direct a devotee to a particular varna, but rather, do they

in practice do so?

 

-- Guru:

 

First, let's examine the relevance of the guru potentially determining

the varna of disciples. For bramacharis, vanaprathas and sannyasis, there is

no question of varna--one simply needs to follow the immediate order of the

spiritual master. Varna is relevant to grhastas only. It is expected that

householders will act independently and take responsibility for their own

position in varnashrama society. They should not pretend to be

transcendental to their material position. In fact, it is stated in Caitanya

Caritamrta that if a grhasta is indeed transcendental to his family

situation, he should pretend to be attached and perform all his expected

duties.

 

Second, what about the guru directing the training of the students in his

guru-kula? Notice in your quotes below, how three or four times Srila

Prabhupada uses "guru" and "teacher" in close juxtaposition--perhaps even

interchangeably. As I understand it, there is no word in Sanskrit for

"teacher" other than "guru". Prabhupada seems to be pointing out that the

person responsible for educating the young student must direct the pupil

into a particular path of education to match his innate varna. In modern

ISKCON practice, there is definitely a big difference between varnashrama

educator and diksa-guru.

 

To me, the essence of the matter is summarized in the quote, "The only

qualification is that whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaishya or sudra,

he must be open, frank and free from reservations. Then, by performing his

particular

occupational duty under the guidance of a proper spiritual master, he can

achieve the highest success in life."

 

The guru's role is to give guidance how to serve Krishna purely--no

matter what varna or ashram one is situated in. Can the diksa-guru direct

the disciple to accept a particular varna? Of course he can. Does that mean

that this should be the system for the Krishna consciousness movement for

the next 10,000 years? I don't think there is evidence to support codifying

such an institution.

 

Krishna consciousness works best when we remember it is a voluntary

process.

 

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

 

[srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net], or

[srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se]

[http://www.web-construct.net]

 

 

 

 

Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se]

COM: Varnasrama development

Prabhupada says: Guru determines Varna

 

Re: "Varnasrama college"

 

According to Srila Prabhupada, the guru determines one's varna -- especially

in

light of the fact that Prabhupada states that Vedic viddhi [as presented in

Manu Samhita for example] can no longer be used reliably to determine varna

in this

age.

 

This seems to be a point which is nearly impossible to accept in ISKCON

because

our initiating gurus are so often more like administrative officials with

hundreds and hundreds of disciples -- so how could such a guru be relied on

to

tell a disciple his proper varna? Even more puzzling is the rtvik proposal

thatonly Prabhupada can be guru -- in such a case, how could Prabhupada tell

new

disciples what their varna is? I think in the future things will evolve to

be

more like the tradition in our line when many gurus have only a few

disciples

(Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji had only one disciple, for example). But that is

beyond the scope of the present discussion.

 

Even though Srila Prabhupada states time and time again (especially SB

5.19.19)

that the guru will determine the disciple's varna, it is extremely difficult

for us to accept such advice from Prabhupada, because as circumstances

worked out,

he himself rarely ever (with some exceptions) advised his own disciples on

what

occupations would be most suitable for them. For those who accept that

Srila

Prabhupada planned to come to America to set up varnasrama, the answer seems

obvious: He planned to begin that practice as part of setting up

varnasrama.

For the rest, his instruction that the guru gives varna guidance remains an

enigma.

 

In addition to Srila Prabhupada's general advice that the guru will

ascertain

the disciple's varna, there is also one occasion (New Orleans) in which he

indicates that such a decision will be worked out with the devotees and

their

community. (Possibly the devotee would approach community members whom he

regarded with enough trust to consider his siksa gurus.)

 

Following your letter are samples of Prabhupada's instructions that the guru

will ascertain the varna of a disciple.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

 

5. Everyone must know his varna.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 5: Chapter One, Text 14 :PURPORT

It is best, therefore, to accept the injunctions of the Vedas, which

are

mentioned in this verse as yad-vaci. In accordance with those injunctions,

everyone should find out whether he is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra

and should thus be educated accordingly. Then his life will be successful.

Otherwise, all of human society will be confused.

 

 

Madhya-lila: Chapter Eight, Text 58 :PURPORT

 

Every man should perform his occupational duty in the light of his

particular tendency. According to his abilities, one shouid accept a

position in the

varnasrama institution. The divisions of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and

sudra

are natural divisions within society. Indeed, everyone has a prescribed duty

according to the varnasrama-dharma. Those who properly execute their

prescribed

duties live peacefully and are not disturbed by material conditions.

 

6. Who decides a devotee's varna -- the devotee? his parents? the community

organizer? NO, the Spiritual Master decides the varna.

 

Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750729SB.DAL

 

This is the process. First of all find out whom you like to accept as guru.

Then put question. But sometimes we have to talk with persons who is not

student,

outsider. That is preaching work. But sastra says that one should approach a

guru, and with surrender he would ask him, and guru will talk with a person

who

is surrendered. Otherwise, there is no necessity of talk because he will not

accept. One who has come to challenge the guru, so he will simply waste

time.

He will not accept. But a disciple who has surrendered, he will accept.

Therefore

talking is recommended between guru and disciple, not outsider.

Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet. This is essential. And guru

trains the disciple according to the Vedic principle. Therefore there are

division of varna and

asrama. So these are very scientific things. The whole world is unaware of

these scientific things, this animal civilization, and this Krsna

consciousness

movement is trying to elevate to the standard of human being.

 

 

Evening Darshan Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

 

Guest (3): Your Grace, may I ask a question? Before I asked about a man not

knowing what his duty was, and you spoke of the highest duty of giving up

all

to Krsna and becoming detached from the fruits of your action. But suppose

the

question is: What shall I become--a shopkeeper, a teacher, a carpenter?

Prabhupada: In any condition, you can surrender yourself to Krsna.

Svakarmana

tam abhyarcya.

Guest (3): Yes, but it sounds like it doesn't matter what I do as long as I

dedicate my action to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Therefore you require spiritual master to guide you.

Guest (3): So I cannot know myself.

Prabhupada: That is not possible.

Guest (3): And intuition does not help.

Prabhupada: Intuition is wrong. It is a practice. A thief thinks "I should

steal." His intuition says. He's practiced to steal and intuition says "You

steal." That is not guide. Intuition means that things which you are

practiced,

that's all. You are accustomed, that's all...

Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly?

Prabhupada: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the sastra, brahmacari

guru-kule

vasan danto guror hitam...

Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (3): But that's what my question is, how does one know.

Prabhupada: Then you have to go to the... Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum

evabhigacchet. Just like we were discussing Sanatana Gosvami, he has gone to

Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he said, "Sir, You have brought me from the

entanglement

of family life. Now tell me what is my duty." So that discussion is going

on. So

you should approach guru and take instruction from him what is, how to act.

....Devotee (4): Must initiation be there, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Initiation must be there. Otherwise, how you'll be guided?

 

 

Morning Walk Hyderabad, April 20, 1974 740420MW.HYD

 

Pancadravida: How do you teach a varnasrama college? In varnasrama college

if

somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be ksatriya" or "I want to be

vaisya."

Is it like that?

 

Prabhupada: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He

will be test by the guru.

 

 

Science of Self Realization: Chapter Six :Finding Spiritual Solutions to

Material Problems

 

Today practically everyone is getting a college education. But what is

taught

at these colleges? Mostly technical knowledge, which is sudra education.

Real

higher education means learning Vedic wisdom. This is meant for the

brahmanas.

Alone, sudra education leads to a chaotic condition. Everyone should be

tested

to find out which education he is suited for.

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 5: Chapter Nineteen, Text 19 :TRANSLATION

TRANSLATION

 

The people who take birth in this tract of land are divided according to

the

qualities of material nature--the modes of goodness [sattva-guna], passion

[rajo-guna], and ignorance [tamo-guna]. Some of them are born as exalted

personalities, some are ordinary human beings, and some are extremely

abominable, for in Bharata-varsa one takes birth exactly according to one's

past karma. If one's position is ascertained by a bona fide spiritual master

and one

is properly trained to engage in the service of Lord Visnu according to the

four social divisions [brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra] and the four

spiritual

divisions [brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa], one's life

becomes

perfect.

 

 

7. The guru doesn't decide the devotee's varna by a magical process, he also

takes into account the feelings expressed by the devotee.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Eight, Text 35 :TRANSLATION

 

TRANSLATION

 

Dhruva Maharaja said: My dear Lord Naradaji, for a person whose heart

is

disturbed by the material conditions of happiness and distress, whatever you

have so kindly explained for attainment of peace of mind is certainly a very

good instruction. But as far as I am concerned, I am covered by ignorance,

and

this kind of philosophy does not touch my heart.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Eight, Text 36 :TRANSLATION

 

TRANSLATION

 

My dear lord, I am very impudent for not accepting your instructions,

but

this is not my fault. It is due to my having been born in a ksatriya family.

My

stepmother, Suruci, has pierced my heart with her harsh words. Therefore

your

valuable instruction does not stand in my heart.

 

:PURPORT

 

Dhruva Maharaja indirectly informed the great sage Narada that there

are

four kinds of human spirit--the brahminical spirit, the ksatriya spirit, the

vaisya spirit and the sudra spirit. The spirit of one caste is not

applicable

to the members of another. The philosophical spirit enunciated by Narada

Muni

might have been suitable for a brahmana spirit, but it was not suitable for

a

ksatriya. Dhruva frankly admitted that he was lacking in brahminical

humility

and was therefore unable to accept the philosophy of Narada Muni.

 

The statements of Dhruva Maharaja indicate that unless a child is

trained

according to his tendency, there is no possibility of his developing his

particular spirit. It was the duty of the spiritual master or teacher to

observe the psychological movement of a particular boy and thus train him in

a

particular occupational duty. Dhruva Maharaja, having already been trained

in

the ksatriya spirit, would not accept the brahminical philosophy.

 

8. Even taking into account the devotee's input in determination of his

varna,

in the final analysis, it is essential that the devotee execute his

occupational duty under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-one, Text 33 :PURPORT

 

The question may be raised that since the Lord is supposed to be

worshiped

by great demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and others, how can an

ordinary

human being on this planet serve Him? This is clearly explained by Prthu

Maharaja by

the use of the word yatha-dhikara, "according to one's ability." If one

sincerely executes his occupational duty, that will be sufficient. One does

not

need to become like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Indra, Lord Caitanya or

Ramanujacarya, whose capabilities are certainly far above ours. Even a

sudra,

who is in the lowest stage of life according to the material qualities, can

achieve the same success. Anyone can become successful in devotional service

provided he displays no duplicity. It is explained here that one must be

very

frank and open-minded (amayinah). To be situated in a lower status of life

is

not a disqualification for success in devotional service. The only

qualification is that whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra,

he must be open, frank and free from reservations. Then, by performing his

particular

occupational duty under the guidance of a proper spiritual master, he can

achieve the highest success in life.

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 7: Chapter Fifteen, Text 67 :PURPORT

 

"O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower

birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach

the supreme destination." It does not matter what one's position is; if one

aims at

reaching Krsna by performing his occupational duty under the direction of

the

spiritual master, his life is successful.

 

Prabhupada's Lectures Nectar of Devotion 1973 730125ND.CAL

 

So it is, it is the spiritual master's business to see the disciple, in

which

way he has got the tendency. And he tries to utilize his natural tendency in

the matter of serving Krsna. One has got tendency for a certain thing. That

tendency can be engaged in Krsna's service also. It is not difficult. Simply

it requires training and guidance. Sva karmana tam abhyarcya, sam siddhi

labhate narah. One has got a particular tendency to work. By that work, if

it is nicely done, you

can satisfy Krsna.

 

 

Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1974 741021SB.MAY

 

Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. Guna, not everyone is

qualified in the same way. Therefore you... The acarya will pick up that

"They are meant for becoming brahmanas. They are meant for ksatriyas."

 

Room Conversation Bombay, September 21, 1973 730921R2.BOM

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the

tendency.

Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction

that

"This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana." Everyone has got some tendency.

>From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into

brahmana, fortunately, then you become brahmana.

Prabhupada: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not sastra. That is

a... Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager

in

the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be

qualified

to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank

manager,

so he can get some facilities, father's training. He can quickly become a

manager. Others may take time.

 

 

Prabhupada's Lectures General - 1969 690327RN.HAW

 

Guru-grha means teacher's house. Formerly, for being trained, there was no

such big scale school and colleges. Every village... Still, fifty years

before in

India, in every village there was a small school conducted by the brahmana,

and

the village children would be trained up there. So he was sent for training.

And there was no school fee. The boys will go there, and on behalf of the

teacher

or spiritual master, they will go, brahmacari, door to door, and beg and

bring

forth alms, rice, dahl, grains, and everything. That was the system. There

was

no school fee. There was no problem how to send a boy to the school.

Samskara.

Now he's trained up. The teacher sees the psychology of the boy, in which

way

he should be trained. Either he should be trained as a vaisya or he should

be

trained as a ksatriya. So everyone was trained like that, but generally, the

son of a ksatriya... Just like Maharaja Ramacandra or Arjuna, from the very

beginning they were trained as ksatriya.

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 5: Chapter Nineteen, Text 19 :PURPORT

 

"The Supreme personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the

proper

execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is

no

other way to satisfy the Lord." In the land of Bharata-varsa, the

institution

of varnasrama-dharma may be easily adopted. At the present moment, certain

demoniac sections of the population of Bharatavarsa are disregarding the

system of

varnasrama-dharma. Because there is no institution to teach people how to

become brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras or brahmacaris, grhasthas,

vanaprasthas and sannyasis, these demons want a classless society. This is

resulting in chaotic conditions. In the name of secular government,

unqualified people are

taking the supreme governmental posts. No one is being trained to act

according

to the principles of varnasrama-dharma, and thus people are becoming

increasingly degraded and are heading in the direction of animal life. The

real

aim of life is liberation, but unfortunately the opportunity for liberation

is

being denied to people in general, and therefore their human lives are being

spoiled. The Krsna consciousness movement, however, is being propagated all

over

the world to reestablish the varnasrama-dharma system and thus save human

society from gliding down to hellish life.

 

 

************************************