Prabhupada says: Guru designates varna

[Guest guest]

"COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2630505 from COM]

>

> >

> > > ... If one's position is ascertained by a bona fide spiritual master

> > > and one is properly trained to engage in the service of Lord Visnu

> according

> > > to the

> > > four social divisions [brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra] and the four

> > > spiritual divisions [brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa],

one's

> > > life

> > > becomes perfect.

> >

> > I have not read the rest of your letter yet, but in addition to our own

guru,

> > Srila Prabhupada, stating that the guru determines his disciple's varna,

and

> > the

> > example of sastra, we also incidents of other sadhus in giving a varna

> > determination for their disciples:

>

> I think the difficulty might lie in semantics here. You are using the word

> determine. In the purport the word used is ascertain. You seem to be using

> them

> as synonyms. To me, to ascertain means to figure out what something already

> is,

> but to determine implies having a hand in the outcome.

>

> For example, if you were to come to me and tell me you were going on a

> journey,

> and wanted some instructions, then I would first try to ascertain where it

was

> you

> wanted to go, and then instruct you how to get to that place, but it seems

to

> me

> that if I were to make a determination of where I think you should go, or

> where I

> want you to go, and then give you instructions to that place, that is

> something

> else.

>

> I think too many devotees have had too many bad experiences with "gurus"

> telling

> them what they should be doing that pushing a platform of gurus determining

> varna

> might be a bit much to swallow.

>

> But yes, a guru recognizing what someone's true potential is and helping

them

> achieve it, is a nice concept.

 

HKDD:

 

Yes, your objection is well taken. I was thinking of "determine" as in

"weather

authorities have determined that the storm will be very severe." Safest is to

stick with Srila Prabhupada's words. Either "ascertain" or "designate." It is

not

a matter of really assigning a varna, it is more a matter of detecting a varna

and

guiding the disciple to the appropriate training.

 

******************************

Room Conversation Bombay, September 21, 1973 730921R2.BOM

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the tendency.

Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that

"This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana." Everyone has got some tendency.

From

the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

 

******************************

 

As far as problems with gurus, we may have to say: "Prabhupada wanted gurus to

guide their disciples to the proper varna, but right now we can't do that

because

our confidence in the gurus has been eroded. Later, when we have a good system

of

guru-selection training set up, then disciples will have more confidence in

their

gurus."

 

In the transitional stage of varnasrama, there are many things like that:

"Prabhupada wanted us to do subsistence farming, but within the context of

capitalism, that is not possible. Later, when we cooperated together to raise

funds to provide land and agricultural training for young devotees, then we

will

engage in subsistence farming."

 

 

By the way, we're not just talking about gurukula children. We are talking

about

the "grown up students" who will attend a varnasrama college. They will be

tested

by the guru:

 

************************************

Morning Walk Hyderabad, April 20, 1974 740420MW.HYD

 

Pancadravida: How do you teach a varnasrama college? In varnasrama college if

somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be ksatriya" or "I want to be

vaisya." Is

it like that?

 

Prabhupada: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He

will be

test by the guru.

 

********************************

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi