Guest guest Posted September 18, 1999 Report Share Posted September 18, 1999 How is it then that in ISKCON so many were offered sannyasa and took it even if they were not, or ar not, brahmanas? Srila Prabhupada himself was offering sannyas to so many of his disciples as a means to spread Krishna consciousness movement and that was proven to be disasterous for many [the most] of his disciples who could not keep it, and they finally left the movement. Sannyasa ashram was made into the highest managerial [king] position, instead of the topmost form of a renounced life. Sannyasis were, and are still, dealing with money and women. The few real brahmanas never took sannyasa because they were not interested in a power and position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 1999 Report Share Posted November 8, 1999 Hare Krishna, It's a well-known phenomena that virtually anything can be proved by "Prabhupada said." Even Srila Prabhupada recognized this fact and warned us to be careful. The direction of your argument is a piece of circular logic: "Only brahmans can take sannyasa--therefore all sannyasis are brahmanas." Keep in mind varna is not a big factor in our sampradaya. Some of the examples you quote address the point that one is not a member of a certain caste just because one is born into it. These statements should not be taken out of that context. Srila Prabhupada is an excellent example. He was born into a vaishya family and maintained himself and his family through business. He did not take up brahminical occupations such as performing pujas, worshipping deities, teaching, practicing astrology, etc. However, he accepted vanaprasta and later sannyasa. Your arguments are based on the assumption that one can only act in one varna at all times of life. But evidence does not substantiate this. -- Prabhupada said we "are all members of unknown castes." So what is the question of fixed varna? From an astrological point of view, we can see how our devotees often change their occupations as they fall under the strong influence of the various planets during the different times of their lives. -- Pure vaishnavas can accept the duties of any varna or ashram as needed. -- Lord Chaitanya took sannyasa so others would not openly disrespect Him. -- Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa to individuals for preaching purposes. Many later proved they were not qualified. The point is that things are not as simple as they seem. That is the problem when absolute statements are made in connection with relative details of devotional service and varnashrama. Varnashram is a system to optimize pious life in a very relative world. Statement based on "always, only, and never" will seldom be found to be absolutely true. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se], or [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net] [http://www.web-construct.net/creditcard.html] > > Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se] > Friday, September 17, 1999 12:06 PM > COM: Varnasrama development > Cc: Noma Petroff > Only a Brahmana can take sannyasa > > > [Text 2635800 from COM] > > "COM: (Bhakta) Oleg Demtchenko (Nikolaev - RU)" wrote: > > > [Text 2635712 from COM] > > > > Mother Hare Krishna wrote: > > > > > Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's varna determination of his disciple was > > >fully validated when that disciple went on to become ISKCON's > > >founder-acarya and established over 100 temples all over the world. > > > > Pardon me, but establishment of many temples doesn't determine > > the varna of a founder. Usually many temples in India were > > founded by kings or wealthy vaisyas. So your point doesn't > > sound logical. > > > > Also, "preaching is brahminical" is incorrect logical > > statement. More correct is to say "preaching should be > > brahminical", but if someone is preaching something, it > > doesn't authomatically means than he is a brahmana. > > > > Hope this finds you in good health, > > Oleg > > > > > > If you are maintaining that Srila Prabhupada was not a brahmana > and was not a > man, then I must admit that you are correct -- from the transcendental > perspective. However, from the external perspective, I think we > can agree that > Srila Prabhupada was a man, and was certainly a brahmana -- > because unless one > is a brahmana, he cannot be offered the order of sannyasa. > > So perhaps I should have reworded my statement to read: > > > Mother Hare Krishna wrote: > > > Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's varna determination of his disciple was > >fully validated when that disciple went on to become ISKCON's > >founder-acarya and established over 100 temples all over the world > > -- as a sannyasi. > > ******************************** > > Here are some of Srila Prabhupada's statements confirming the > fact that only a > brahmana can be offered sannyasa: > > ******************************** > > Unless one becomes a brahmana, one cannot take sannyasa. > > ============ REF. SB 6.5.36 > > Although it is a fact that unless one is a brahmana he cannot become a > sannyasi, it is not a valid principle that an unqualified man who > is born in a > brahmana family is a brahmana whereas a brahminically qualified > person born in > a non-brahmana family cannot be accepted. The Krsna consciousness movement > strictly follows the injunctions of Srimad-Bhagavatam, avoiding misleading > heresy and manufactured conclusions. > > ============ REF. Adi 7.67 > > According to the Vedic injunctions, only a brahmana may be > offered sannyasa. > > ============ REF. Adi 17.266 > > > So brahmacari, grhastha, then not to stuck up with the family > affairs up to the > end of death. No. At a certain stage, after fifty years, he must > give up. That > is called vanaprastha. And then, after being trained up in > vanaprastha very > nicely, he takes sannyasa. This is brahmana's..., four asrama. And for the > ksatriya, up to vanaprastha. Up to vanaprastha. Just like > Maharaja Yudhisthira > and all the brothers, they left home, but the wife was there. > That is called > vanaprastha. They did not take sannyasa. Ksatriya. Up to > vanaprastha. Vaisyas. > No vanaprastha, no sannyasa. Up to grhastha. Brahmacari... Brahmacari is > compulsory for the dvija. Because there is the training. And for the sudra > there is no brahmacari. Only grhastha, married. Otherwise, life > will be very > irregular. So in this way varnasrama. So there are duties. > > ============ REF. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.32 -- Vrndavana, August 13, 1974 > > Varna means brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Catur-varnyam maya srstam > guna-karma-vibhagasah [bg. 4.13]. Guna, not everyone is qualified > in the same > way. Therefore you... The acarya will pick up that "They are > meant for becoming > brahmanas. They are meant for ksatriyas." Or for coming from > ksatriya family, > or the brahmana family... So first of all, these varnas, then asrama. The > brahmana, one who is qualified as a brahmana, he has to observe the four > asramas, a brahmana: the brahmacari-asrama, the grhastha-asrama, the > vanaprastha-asrama and sannyasa-asrama. The ksatriya, they'll > have to observe > three asramas: brahmacari, grhastha and vanaprastha. And the vaisyas, two > asramas: brahmacari and grhastha. And sudra, only one asrama, > only grhastha. A > sudra is never offered sannyasa. A... Only the brahmana is offered. > > ============ REF. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.41 -- Mayapura, October 21, 1974 > > > Prabhupada: That is the normal rules and regulation, that > especially brahmana, > he must go through the four asramas, first of all become brahmacari, then > grhastha, then vanaprastha, then take sannyasa. This is for the > brahmanas. And > for the ksatriyas, brahmacari, grhastha, and vanaprastha. And for > the vaisyas, > brahmacari, grhastha. And for the sudras, only grhastha. > > ============ REF. Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.6.1 -- Madras, January 2, 1976 > > > Unless they take to Krsna consciousness, they'll not be saved. > The varnasrama > college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever > we have got our > center, a varnasrama college should be established to train four > divisions: one > class, brahmana; one class, ksatriya; one class, vaisya; and one > class, sudra. > But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual > activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, > even for the > sudras. > Passerby: Jayo! > Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. > Bhagavan: Are sudras supposed to take sannyasa also? > Prabhupada: No, why? > Bhagavan: SudrasI > Prabhupada: Those who are sudras, they should not be allowed to > take sannyasa. > Only those who are qualified brahmanas, they'll be allowed to > take sannyasa. > Bhagavan: Ksatriyas used to take sannyasa too? > Prabhupada: KsatriyasI Some of them. Not all. > Guru dasa: Yudhisthira Maharaja? > Prabhupada: Eh? > Guru dasa: Yudhisthira Maharaja. > Prabhupada: They did not take sannyasa, but they left home. There > is no need of > accepting sannyasa. One has to perform the devotional activities. > That is real > thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he > takes to the, > seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll > think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big > sannyasi." You > see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brahmana." > No. There must > be regular training. > > ============VRNDAVANA, MARCH 12, 1974 - VARNASRAMA WALK > > > your servant, > > Hare Krsna dasi > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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