Realistic Varnasram-dharma (1 of 3)

[Guest guest]

My dear godbrother and godsister prabhus:

 

Please accept my humble obeisances and those of my dear godbrother

Sriman Nikhilananda das prabhu. Prabhuji has has asked me to post the

following series of texts to COM, as he is currently travelling and unable

to post messages directly.

 

I am pleased not only to post his messages here, but to offer my full

support and cooperation to him. I heartily endorse the ideas contained in

this rather lengthy, though marvellous and well-thought-out essay, and I

thank him profoundly for the obvious energy he has put into his proposals.

Here at last is a devotee who has discovered the key to satisfying Srila

Prabhupada's desire to implement Varnasram Dharma, and I welcome his very

practical approach to what has sometimes been held up as an unattainable

ideal, sometimes become confused with the ossified and useless caste

system of India, and sometimes used as a blunt instrument to reprimand

ISKCON repeatedly and monotonously for failing hitherto to establish

Varnasrama Dharma on this earth.

 

In the course of his essay Nikhilananda prabhu responds to some

articles posted on COM by Hari Sauri das prabhu, who, the author contends,

misquoted him by publishing some of his private remarks "out of context

and without permission."

 

Sincerely,

Ananda das

 

==========================================================================

 

Here is the first part of his essay:

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

With sadness I heard that a fragment of my previous "conversation"

with Hari Sauri das Prabhu on the topic of Varnasram Dharma (VAD) has

been published here [on COM] by Hari Sauri out of context and without my

permission. I informed Hari Sauri Prabhu previously that I felt strongly

misunderstood in the point which I tried to make and that I felt very

frustrated because of that. Indeed I left the COM Bulletin Board system

altogether because I felt that I was not fairly treated; I informed Hari

Sauri prabhu of my unwillingness to discuss it further and had my name

d from COM. It is only because my dear godbrother and GBC

representative Rohini Suta Prabhu asked me to do so that I will return in

a few days to COM, to be able to fulfill my service duties. Mahibharta

Prabhu (HKS) informed me that Hari Sauri Prabhu has quoted me in the SV

conference, to express his own opinions on VAD.

 

In summary I never said that VAD is unimportant; all I said was that

there are are other things more important -- each at its own time -- that

VAD in itself is not the miracle cure to all ills of this world, and that

we have to make sure the VAD concept is not misused as a pretext for

nonsense or to form one's own New Age belief groups. As this caste system

has also deteriorated in India we have to be very careful not to make it

an absolute dogma in itself, but only to see its relative value in trying

to help each other attain Krishna

 

I must say that I find it a little bit unethical that, although

I informed Hari Sauri that I felt wrongly understood by him, he now

reproduces parts of the conversation here in this conference, knowing well

that I am not even on COM and, ordinarily, would have had no chance to see

it. I find it even more disappointing that Hari Sauri quotes me and

continues the argument on these levels before straightenening out our

personal relationship first.

 

I am not a member of the SV disciples conference. I am sending this

text in the hope that it will still be published, as would only be fair,

after my own words have been published here out of context, given a

distorted meaning and commented upon by Hari Sauri Prabhu. So here is the

text I refer to and I am sending you my personal comments in three parts,

to avoid extending the length of each. As Hari Sauri Prabhu mentioned

everyone has the right to his own opinion. I have no problem with this. I

only maintain we should be fair with each other and not mispresent or

distort each other's views.

 

==========================================================================

 

Hari Sauri das prabhu wrote:

> Here's something from an exchange I had recently with

> Nikhilananda prabhu, which I put out recently on the Prabhupada

> Disciples conference in this > regard (it doesn't specifically

> deal with the "no illicit sex" issue, but the broader issue

> of properly engaging people according to their capacities):

My text was not on the topic of engaging people according to their

capacity; I did not say much on that. The main topic and point of my text

was that I wanted to warn people from misusing the term "Varnasrama" to

form a radical group, as was done by Kirtanananda, when he created his

paramilitary "kshatriya" group who went around killing people some years

ago. This was such a disastrous chapter of our movement, initiated by a

leader who neglected basic human ethics for the sake of a radical and

mystifying ideology. Since, in this current situation, I heard reports a

few weeks ago of devotees who had started to threaten other devotees

physically and spread fear, I simply wanted to warn that such things

should not be done, under the label of a Varnasrama ideology, but that

the Vaishnava qualities are more important to remember first. Also, a

kshyatriya is, by definition, someone who protects others from being

harmed, NOT somone who goes around threatening devotees.

 

I feel very happy and grateful for having read Harikesa Prabhu's

recent text (from the video) which I think has many good points. What

I appreciated most in it was that it emphasized the need to love and it

warned that violence and damage to others should not be committed.

 

That was the whole meaning of my text, too. The whole point of my

text, had it been read carefully and left whole, was that Varnasrama rests

on first developing certain good character qualities and that is the point

which Srila Prabhupada repeatedly emphasized. In detaills :

 

==========================================================================

 

Hari Sauri Prabhu quoted me (Nikhilananda das) as saying:

> Personally I believe that Srila Prabhupada accomplished and

> did what he wanted to do, on behalf of his spiritual master

> and the parampara and he was very successful in it. I believe

> that he only said out of deep humility that 50% is unfinished,

> and he only said it a few times.

 

I wrote this because there were statements in some letters that could

make us believe that Prabhupada was somehow not successful, which I feel

is diminishing Prabhupada and constitutes unfounded criticism. Prabhupada

achieved more than anyone could ever dream of, but he also encouraged us

that there is more work to be done, to continue to expand the mission.

Srila Prabhupada asked repeatedly for the establishment of a Varnasrama

College. I cannot see that he had the idea to divide the ISKCON devotees

themselves into four varnas. He could have easily done so, but he never

did. This may be where Hari Sauri and I disagree, but I wonder why

he decided to discuss it in this forum at this time. I studied all of

Prabhupada's statements on VAD, as part of the work on a VAD book twenty

years ago, using Prabhupada's original unedited tapes.

 

The Varnasrama College was supposed to give basic training in the

values and character principles FIRST, mainly to people OUTSIDE of ISKCON,

so that general society could be more peacefully managed. Prabhupada never

thought that the society would change automatically by simply introducing

a new political system or a new structure, not even VAD. He wanted us to

teach people certain principles first.

 

Nor can we introduce any new political system right now,

realistically,

because society does not listen to us. We are definitely not accepted as

authorities on such questions right now. That is where being realistic

comes in. Prabhupada wanted us first to introduce the principles and

values of Vedic civilization and the basic Krishna conscious culture.

 

Obviously Srila Prabhupada never established one of these VAD colleges

at his time, although he could have done it. He definitely wanted it

next, the founding of VAD colleges. However the first priority was the

establishment of temples and systems of training people in devotee

qualities, first within the four orders of spiritual life (asramas) not

within the four varnas. We still miss that good and proficient training

in many places, for example, in Calcutta and Mayapur, where many young

devotees exhibit nasty behaviour. We are not even very efficient or good

in practicing the standards for the four orders of spiritual life, but

some think that we are already fit to become spiritual authorities on

establishing four varnas.

 

Thus we make the mistake of moving too fast in too many directions

instead of step by step as Prabhupada taught. First, I suggest we should

establish the proper conduct and situation of the four ashramas, which we

have not succeeded in. The householders are often not properly situated

and this is true not only for the younger generation, but especially for

older devotees, who after preaching for many years are often left without

proper facilities or income and simply have to work and struggle hard,

for which they are also put down (the main cause of ISKCON's present

problems). Next the sannyasis are often not living a sannyasa life, which

has led to many unfortunate attacks against sannyasis and even, for many,

a kind of general distrust of them. That should not be.

 

Therefore my first practical suggestion was, and is, that sannyasis in

ISKCON should be free from management duties; they should not deal much

with women and money, but they should be allowed simply to preach and

give personal care and counselling to their disciples. Ideally, sannyasis

should be accepted only after they went through the whole period of

household life, so that they would be stable and mature.

 

These seem to be more practical and needed steps right now, as opposed

to some devotees' dreams of taking over the governments of the world by

introducing radical ideologies, while we could not take care of the world

in the present stage.

 

Because we lack maturity, experience, skill and, to a great extent,

also the devotional qualities without which, in this fallen age, we cannot

establish any Vedic kind of life, it is only by the mercy of Lord Caitanya

and through taking shelter of the holy name that we can have any pious

Vedic qualities. No New Age fuzz or experimenting with caste structures

can improve society unless we have devotee qualities first, and the

blessings of the parampara.

 

So I do not disagree with Hari Sauri Prabhhu and others that VAD is

important, altghough they unfortunately misunderstand me that way. But

for me it is important to introduce it step by step, and to set the right

priorities, instead of making it some kind of magic VAD cult or moving

ahead with passion. Also, there was a lot of mixing of terms in the VAD

discussion. Unfortunately those who are inspired by the VAD thought often

do not pay much attention to the confusion that is caused by the mixing of

terms and the warnings issued in this regard -- which, for me, exhibits

a certain amount of carelessness.

 

Moreover there were trends in Germany in the last few years that

devotees believed us to be offenders because we do not divide devotees

working as full time ISKCON devotees into the four varna groups. There

were even attempts to start artificially designating varna labels to

devotees within ISKCON, sometimes against their will.

 

I never saw that Srila Prabhupada tried to do that. Practically

speaking, I saw that it can create confusion. In a part of my text not

quoted by Hari Sauri prabhu, I wrote that the varna system will come out

naturally (not if we force it in dogmatically like some sect of Hindu

fascists).

 

For VAD to come out naturally, we first have to care about two

factors:

 

1. A. That devotees who become householders (the majority) should

be given more help and support by the ISKCON leadership to

obtain proper means of income in order to be self-sufficient.

Among so many theoretical conferences about VAD, etc., there

does not seem to be even one conference of householders and

ISKCON managers which discusses opportunities of obtaining

income through proper professions, careers and honest busi-

nesses -- a conference which presents successful businesses

and careers of devotees; and

 

B. Offering a fund to help those householders who have no rich

parents but who served ISKCON for many years to obtain education

or professional training in an honest occupation. For example,

I was told by my GBC (then Hansadutta) in 1974, at age 17,

simply to drop my education against my will as a sacrifice

for book publication, and would obviously need help now

as a grihastha to become settled. I only married this year.

Instead I am basically standing on the street, while some

sannyasis swim in the millions. They would not even allow me

to work for the BBT last year.

 

2. Before we can even think of introducing actual varnas as a

political system a pre-condition is that the society as a whole

must be more educated and trained in spiritual values, such as

those presented in Srila Prabhupada's literature. At least a

certain percentage of the population must be aware of the

spiritual principles, or else we will find ourselves fighting

against the rest of the world (and become even more isolated

as a sect).

 

Srila Prabhupada said, "At least one percent of the population must

be Krishna conscious; then the face of the world will change."

 

Often I saw business ideas and schemes recommended by, and even

controlled by, sannyasis -- who had never been through household life,

which were very unrealistic and often tinged with wishful thinking,

understandably so.

 

Also, huge funds, even for so-called business activities, were

(and are) monopolized by sannyasis and gurus, in my opinion an intolerable

situation. Those sums of money could have been divided, and distributed to

householders, who need to finance their professional education and income

career. This would, in my opinion, be more long-term thinking and could

provide the basis for a future varnasrama dharma society. In Germany I saw

that older devotees especially, who had dedicated their whole lives to

preaching, were left to fend for themselves, saddled with personal debts

(incurred through preaching activities which had been ordered from above)

and neither education nor profession (only paintings and half-legal New

Age business scams with no future).

 

Here in Slovenia, though, it is different. The temple actively helps

and encourages every devotee to complete his or her education and to find

a properly remunerated job or a place in the prasadam business. Already

some of the many students here in the congregation have a chance to obtain

even a considerable political position in society. That seems to be more

effective, in my opinion, than to dream that we simply give all devotees

in the temples new names according to their imagined varnas and then, by

some magic, all problems are solved, or that one simply one has to find

one's varna destined by birth, which would again be the caste system by

birth, while qualities, habits and activities can actually be changed and

improved.

 

Therefore, I do not think that we have missed the development of, or

neglected to introduce, VAD. Rather, if we simply continue to improve our

four ashramas, both inside and outside the temples (which need a lot of

improvement), if we continue to expand the congregational preaching and

other pure Krsna conscious activities, and if we encourage all branches of

the comgregation, then certainly there may come a time when introducing

varnas will only seem natural. And that is what Srila Prabhupada wanted to

see, among many other things. In summary, VAD is dependent on Krishna

consciousness and mature, solid individuals with high character qualities,

while Krishna consciousness itself is not actually dependent on VAD.

VAD is just one help at the right time and the right place.

 

(Continued in part 2)

[Guest guest]

"COM: Ananda (das) ACBSP (Victoria - CAN)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2661783 from COM]

>

> My dear godbrother and godsister prabhus:

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances and those of my dear godbrother

> Sriman Nikhilananda das prabhu. Prabhuji has has asked me to post the

> following series of texts to COM, as he is currently travelling and unable

> to post messages directly.

>

> I am pleased not only to post his messages here, but to offer my full

> support and cooperation to him. I heartily endorse the ideas contained in

> this rather lengthy, though marvellous and well-thought-out essay, and I

> thank him profoundly for the obvious energy he has put into his proposals.

> Here at last is a devotee who has discovered the key to satisfying Srila

> Prabhupada's desire to implement Varnasram Dharma, and I welcome his very

> practical approach to what has sometimes been held up as an unattainable

> ideal, sometimes become confused with the ossified and useless caste

> system of India, and sometimes used as a blunt instrument to reprimand

> ISKCON repeatedly and monotonously for failing hitherto to establish

> Varnasrama Dharma on this earth.

>

> In the course of his essay Nikhilananda prabhu responds to some

> articles posted on COM by Hari Sauri das prabhu, who, the author contends,

> misquoted him by publishing some of his private remarks "out of context

> and without permission."

>

> Sincerely,

> Ananda das

 

Could someone please forward me Hari Sauri prabhu's original post. I don't

believe that I ever saw it. Thanks very much.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I am pleased not only to post his messages here, but to offer my full

> support and cooperation to him. I heartily endorse the ideas contained in

> this rather lengthy, though marvellous and well-thought-out essay, and I

> thank him profoundly for the obvious energy he has put into his proposals.

 

As part of that support, could you possible make a little hundred word

summary of what his major points were? I scrolled down several screens worth

and just saw references to some previous interactions of him and Hari Sauri.

 

In many circles, it is common to post an abstract with all the essential

points and conclusions contained succintly. If this is indeed some seminal

paper, then such an abstract will certainly be a good tool to get wider

readership, as the sheer volumne of the full text and the slowness of it's

getting to any real points is off putting.

 

 

> My text was not on the topic of engaging people according to their

> capacity; I did not say much on that. The main topic and point of my text

> was that I wanted to warn people from misusing the term "Varnasrama" to

> form a radical group, as was done by Kirtanananda, when he created his

> paramilitary "kshatriya" group who went around killing people some years

> ago.

 

This is the first actual point he seems to be making, besides the history of

why he is writing the paper. While I definitely agree with his point, his

example is bad.

 

Since that example is just plain factually wrong, I have little incentive

in plowing through much more, unless you can put together a little abstract

of what he does eventually get around to saying, which I am open to the

possibility has some true merit.

 

As for Kirtanananda, first let me say that his present condition of

incarceration is an appropriate one for him and I have no desire for him to

ever be in a position of management again. Krsna sent him the situation he

needed to make advancement.

 

But the statement "as was done by Kirtanananda, when he created his

paramilitary "kshatriya" group who went around killing people some years

ago. " is factually incorrect.

 

First, only 2 people got killed. One was a drug dealer who slept with the

wife of a devotee. She told her husband that she was raped. That devotee was

not a member of the "kshatriya" group, and actually had to borrow a gun from

another devotee, who also wan't in the "kshatriya" group to kill the the man

whom he believed to be a rapist, which he did in a state of extreme mental

agitation.

 

The other murder was the Sulocana case. Tirtha, the trigger man, was never

involved with the "ksatriya" group that was established in New Vrindaban. He

was never given that sort of training within any sort of VAD type

scenario. He was a Vietnam vet suffering from post traumatic stress

syndrome.

 

Sulocana had made death threats against Kirtananada and had been arrested

within a few miles of NV with a loaded gun. Warped as it may have been,

Tirtha at the time saw himself as a protector of the guru, but he was at the

time already expelled from New Vrindaban, and operated outside the control or

influence of any "kshatriya" group in NV. What Kirtananada knew and when is

subject to some interpretation, but it in any case it was not within the

boundaries of any VAD training or supervision that had gone on in NV.

[Guest guest]

On 29 Sep 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> Tirtha at the time saw himself as a protector of the guru, but he was at

the

> time already expelled from New Vrindaban, and operated outside the control

or

> influence of any "kshatriya" group in NV.

 

 

When he was "expelled" from NV he was living in Cleveland, Ohio -- both the

temple and an apartment. His wife also. Kirtanananda had "authorised" this.

The expelling was just a sham.

 

> What Kirtananada knew and when is

> subject to some interpretation, but it in any case it was not within the

> boundaries of any VAD training or supervision that had gone on in NV.

 

What is not subject to interpretation are transcripts of the court-ordered

wiretaps on the Cleveland and NV telephones. Unfortunately, it will be some

time before these transcripts are released to the public, but I can assure

you, from my own personal knowledge and involvement, Kirtananda was COMPLETELY

aware of the situation.

 

 

But, yes, you are correct that he was not involved with the formal

"kshyatriya" training that was going on. That training was really a joke --

more like teaching sudras how to shoot themselves in the foot. The one thing

I agree with Kirtananda is his quote -- "So, you think you are kshatriya?

Then go catch a squirrel bare-handed and eat it!"

[Guest guest]

>

> What is not subject to interpretation are transcripts of the court-ordered

> wiretaps on the Cleveland and NV telephones. Unfortunately, it will be some

> time before these transcripts are released to the public, but I can assure

> you, from my own personal knowledge and involvement, Kirtananda was

COMPLETELY

> aware of the situation.

 

Yes, another example of why sannyasis (a VAD designation) shouldn't be

involved

in management, as they weren't when VAD was actually in action.

 

>

>

> But, yes, you are correct that he was not involved with the formal

> "kshyatriya" training that was going on. That training was really a joke --

> more like teaching sudras how to shoot themselves in the foot. The one thing

> I agree with Kirtananda is his quote -- "So, you think you are kshatriya?

> Then go catch a squirrel bare-handed and eat it!"

 

I never heard that quote. Although I know at one point, after another (no

injury) gun mishap he said we were in more danger from our own devotees with

guns

than from the karmis.

 

And yes, most of the so called "kshatriyas at NV were just sudras who wanted

to

shoot guns and break the regulative principles. It wasn't a genuine program,

more a glorified security guard program, not an actual program to train

administrators.

[Guest guest]

On 29 Sep 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

Thank you very much, Madhava Gosh Prabhu for the excellent clarification of

the facts of this much maligned history.

 

ys,

Jd

 

 

 

 

 

 

> But the statement "as was done by Kirtanananda, when he created his

paramilitary "kshatriya" group who went around killing people some years

ago. " is factually incorrect.

 

> First, only 2 people got killed. One was a drug dealer who slept with

the

wife of a devotee. She told her husband that she was raped. That devotee was

> not a member of the "kshatriya" group, and actually had to borrow a gun

from

another devotee, who also wan't in the "kshatriya" group to kill the the man

> whom he believed to be a rapist, which he did in a state of extreme mental

agitation.

 

> The other murder was the Sulocana case. Tirtha, the trigger man, was

never

involved with the "ksatriya" group that was established in New Vrindaban.

He

was never given that sort of training within any sort of VAD type

> scenario. He was a Vietnam vet suffering from post traumatic stress

> syndrome.

 

> Sulocana had made death threats against Kirtananada and had been arrested

within a few miles of NV with a loaded gun. Warped as it may have been,

Tirtha at the time saw himself as a protector of the guru, but he was at the

> time already expelled from New Vrindaban, and operated outside the control

or

influence of any "kshatriya" group in NV. What Kirtananada knew and when

is

subject to some interpretation, but it in any case it was not within the

> boundaries of any VAD training or supervision that had gone on in NV.

[Guest guest]

On 29 Sep 1999, Bhuta-bhavana Dasa wrote:

 

> I agree with Kirtananda is his quote -- "So, you think you are kshatriya?

> Then go catch a squirrel bare-handed and eat it!"

 

 

 

 

Funny, I don't remember reading anything about Arjuna doing this nor have I

ever read anything of the sort in the Raja Dharma sastras.

 

 

Must be another former ISKCON guru idea.

[Guest guest]

>

> > First, only 2 people got killed. One was a drug dealer who slept with

 

 

THIS IS INCORRECT!!!!

 

At least TWO were murdered, but their a others that are missing, and PROBABLY

killed. And this was BEFORE the two that are known about, and reported in

Monkey on a Stick.

 

 

 

The devotee's name is TARU DASA.

[Guest guest]

>

> > I agree with Kirtananda is his quote -- "So, you think you are

> > kshatriya? Then go catch a squirrel bare-handed and eat it!"

>

 

> Funny, I don't remember reading anything about Arjuna doing this nor have

> I ever read anything of the sort in the Raja Dharma sastras.

>

>

> Must be another former ISKCON guru idea.

 

 

Straight to the point.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/28/99 6:02:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

> Could someone please forward me Hari Sauri prabhu's original post. I don't

> believe that I ever saw it. Thanks very much.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

 

Yes, I don't know what conference it might have been posted on, but I don't

remember reading it either. Perhaps it was not posted, but in any case I

would be interested in reading it. Yhs, Kanti dasi

[Guest guest]

>

>

> THIS IS INCORRECT!!!!

>

> At least TWO were murdered, but their a others that are missing, and PROBABLY

> killed. And this was BEFORE the two that are known about, and reported in

> Monkey on a Stick.

>

> The devotee's name is TARU DASA.

 

Suicide.

[Guest guest]

> > THIS IS INCORRECT!!!!

> >

> > At least TWO were murdered, but their a others that are missing, and

PROBABLY

> > killed. And this was BEFORE the two that are known about, and reported in

> > Monkey on a Stick.

> >

> > The devotee's name is TARU DASA.

>

> Suicide.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is what Kirtanananda claimed. But no travel documents to India were ever

discovered. I don't believe anything Kirtanananda (a convicted felon) has to

say. But I have complete faith that Yamaraja will bring justice to his

murderers.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Bhuta-bhavana (Dasa) ACBSP (Sandpoint ID - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2690825 from COM]

>

> > > THIS IS INCORRECT!!!!

> > >

> > > At least TWO were murdered, but their a others that are missing, and

> PROBABLY

> > > killed. And this was BEFORE the two that are known about, and reported

in

> > > Monkey on a Stick.

> > >

> > > The devotee's name is TARU DASA.

> >

> > Suicide.

> >

>

> That is what Kirtanananda claimed. But no travel documents to India were

ever

> discovered. I don't believe anything Kirtanananda (a convicted felon) has to

> say. But I have complete faith that Yamaraja will bring justice to his

> murderers.

 

Trust me , suicide.

 

However, personally I hold him more responsible for Taru's death then the

others, as his fanatical standard of strict adherence to the "no illicit sex "

rule, while keeping Taru's wife constantly out on sankirtan, were highly

contributable to the ultimate action.

 

And yes, we all have to face Yamaraja eventualy.

[Guest guest]

On 11 Oct 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> Trust me , suicide.

>

 

 

How come no body? How come no independant verification. His mother does not

even know what happened. Umapati Swami was asking about his whereabouts a

couple years ago.

 

Sorry, I do not trust ANYONE from Non Vrndavan.