gurukulas - slaughter houses

[Guest guest]

>

> Without protection of cows, brahminical culture cannot be maintained; and

> without brahminical culture, the aim of life cannot be fulfilled.

(Srila Prabhupada)

 

Madhava Gosh prabhu:

>

> Lack of following Srila Prabhupada's instructions on cow protection is the

> mother of all our problems.

 

> Gurukula abuse is a failure of maintaining brahminical standards, as will

> happen if cow protection is not there.

 

 

Cool comment. Nothing else but the unfulfillment of

the aim of life (due to lack of cow protection) is the explanation

for sexual abuse of children. Either "we" make it back to

Godhead, or "our" children will be raped by "us", Krsna's devotees

who missed to follow Srila Prabhupada's instruction on cow

protection.

 

However, there are still millions and millions of people who have

never heard the name "Prabhupada" nor the expression "brahminical

culture", and who are cow-eaters on top of that, and still they

don't rape their children. How to explain to them these reasons

for Krsna's children having been obnoxiously abused by Hare Krsna

teachers in the spiritual society ISCKON?

"Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> Didnt you say, that the main blame for letting it all happen,

> should be put on the childrens parents, and not on the leaders

> of ISKCON.This statement of yours below, is the proof for what

> I said about you trying to protect the guilty partys, by

> throwing the blame on the parents.

 

I stand by that statement. I am not such a loser that I will

blame ISKCON for my own mistakes. What kind of parents cannot

have noticed what happened to their kids? And when they did

notice why didn't they do anything about it then? Where are the

parents of all the abused kids now? Why don't they do something

now? Nothing it seems since these kids need crazy people like

Pratyatosa and Puranjana to speak their case. I know that if

someone beat up my children or raped them, I wouldn't wait for

the institution to take responsibility and do something about it.

I'd do something about it myself.

 

Also I am not out to protect the guilty parties. I think they

should be punished as much as anyone else but I refuse to become

hysterical and irrational about it. You must be quite stupid if

you think that anything I have said undicates that I am trying to

protect child-abusers. In fact I am getting fed up with people

like you who do nothing but whine and wail and complain about how

ISKCON is bad. What do _you _ do for the kids except whine on

COM? Don't you have something useful to do.. like some devotional

service?

[Guest guest]

> > Trayimaya wrote:

> >

> > > I agree with Janaka prabhu. This child-abuse is the biggest

> > > stain on the white cloth of ISKCON. It is THE mother of all

> > > our problems.

>

> Jahnu Prabu wrote:

>

> > Wrong! THE mother of all our problems is that we didn't

> > follow

> > the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave us. The child-abuse is

> > merely an effect of that.

>

> Please Prabhu, give the proper chance to all other sincere

> devotees to stress their opinion freely concerning this case.

 

So why do you complain when I freely stress my opinion, o wise

one?

[Guest guest]

> However, I might still choose to take part in some public

> exchanges, regardless of what stance you personally hold

> to me. I am stupid for myself, you take care of yourself.

> Now, please don't try to enter my private life anymore, after

> all it is me who bores you. I don't want any private exchange

> with you. Hare Krsna.

 

Why the fuck do you write me then? Where would you be without

ISKCON, huh? Over there in Yugo-land killing and raping like all

the other idiots over there.

[Guest guest]

> However, I might still choose to take part in some public

> exchanges, regardless of what stance you personally hold

> to me. I am stupid for myself, you take care of yourself.

> Now, please don't try to enter my private life anymore, after

> all it is me who bores you. I don't want any private exchange

> with you. Hare Krsna.

 

Why the fuck do you write me then? Where would you be without

ISKCON, huh? Over there in Yugo-land killing and raping like all

the other idiots over there.

[Guest guest]

> I know that if

> someone beat up my children or raped them, I wouldn't wait for

> the institution to take responsibility and do something about it. I'd do

> something about it myself.

What exactly would you do?

[Guest guest]

> I know that if

> someone beat up my children or raped them, I wouldn't wait for

> the institution to take responsibility and do something about it. I'd do

> something about it myself.

What exactly would you do?

[Guest guest]

> > > Trayimaya wrote:

> > >

> > > > I agree with Janaka prabhu. This child-abuse is the biggest stain on

> > > > the white cloth of ISKCON. It is THE mother of all our problems.

> >

> > Jahnu Prabu wrote:

> >

> > > Wrong! THE mother of all our problems is that we didn't

> > > follow

> > > the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave us. The child-abuse is merely

> > > an effect of that.

> >

> > Please Prabhu, give the proper chance to all other sincere

> > devotees to stress their opinion freely concerning this case.

 

Jahnu Prabhu wrote:

 

> So why do you complain when I freely stress my opinion, o wise

> one?

 

You have the right to your own opinion like everybody else, but not in the

way to impose it on others as the apsolute truth.Also you dont have the

right to bully everybody around just because they brought up the subject of

GBC responsibility for the gurukula case.

 

Y.s. Janaka das

[Guest guest]

> Where are the

> parents of all the abused kids now? Why don't they do something

> now?

 

Damned they because their children were abused and they were

doing nothing about then. Damned they because they are not

doing "something" now, after their children had been bused

in ISCKON.

 

And damned will they be if they go doing "something" now.

 

What the parents of "all abused kids" should have been doing

now (besides "following Prabhupada's instructions, of course),

it seems to be up to Jahnu to acknowledge and senction it.

 

 

 

> In fact I am getting fed up with people

> like you who do nothing but whine and wail and complain about how ISKCON

> is bad. What do _you _ do for the kids except whine on COM? Don't you have

> something useful to do.. like some devotional service?

 

Low class ad hominy attacks.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> > I know that if

> > someone beat up my children or raped them, I wouldn't wait

> > for

> > the institution to take responsibility and do something about

> > it. I'd do something about it myself.

 

> What exactly would you do?

 

I would make this person suffer very badly.

[Guest guest]

> I would make this person suffer very badly.

Sounds easy. But if this person is in power he might turn it right back

into the face of you and your family and makes things even worse for you.

There is a difference between being mister old and important devotee and

miss floorsweeper just walked in the door a few years ago.

Thats why leaders are supposed to protect those they rule over and who

serve them in good faith. That includes parents too ofcourse, they are also

supposed to protect their children. But if a thief breaks in and murder the

child would you blame the parents? They will blame themselves eternally dont

worry.

[Guest guest]

Janaka wrote:

 

> Protecting abused kids and their parents from people like you,

> is nice service for Krsna and Srila Prabhupada.

 

Really? How are you doing that, o wise one? Do you think that

your inane assertions on COM will protect the children and their

parents? And why do you think they need protection from me? What

did I do to them?

[Guest guest]

Hey guys, I think you both need to take a time out. I don't think

either of you are far enough apart in your ideas that you need to get

so emotional and all name calling about it. Chill out for a little

while, I think we all agree we need to deal with the abuse.

 

Please also notice I have deleted Prabhupada Said as a reciepient as per

their request.

 

"COM: Jahnu (das) (Almviks Gard - S)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2735725 from COM]

>

> Janaka wrote:

>

> > Protecting abused kids and their parents from people like you,

> > is nice service for Krsna and Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Really? How are you doing that, o wise one? Do you think that

> your inane assertions on COM will protect the children and their

> parents? And why do you think they need protection from me? What

> did I do to them?

[Guest guest]

>

> So what is _your_ explanation, o wise one? What do _you_ do about the

> problems of child-abuse in ISKCON except whining about it on COM? Do you

> think that helps the children?

 

Well, I go whining about it on COM, not to be ever forgotten.

I hope that is sufficient from me at the moment, and OK with

you, Jahnu. If not, can't help you. Sorry.

 

..

[Guest guest]

> > "Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

>

> So what is _your_ explanation, o wise one?

 

Since you are sending me e-mail calling me stupid in private,

and in public you are addressing me as "wise one", I have my

sincere doubts in your honest interest to hear my explanation.

So, don't bother.

 

 

However, if you are already demonstrating such a high degree

of philosophical understanding regarding the abuse of children,

i.e. that it is all due to our not following properly Prabhupada's

instructions, so you laconically conclude: "The child-abuse is

merely an effect of that", then...

 

Then please keep consistent and make the next conclusion how

the reaction of some abused children and parents (for example

those who are suing ISCKON now) is -- merely an effect of a mare

effect of our not properly following Prabhupada's instructions

(to protect cows, apparently). Then please do not lunch your

furious and uncontrolled attacks on anybody here. Keep your

tranquility, even more firmly than in the case of understanding/

explaining the child abuse itself. After all, what ISCKON (that's

we, Jahnu), compared to the abused children, might loose? Some

millions of some US dollars, only. So, don't worry, be happy.

It's all merely still just some mare effect's echo... Not even

worthy of your attention, what to speak of trying to kill people

through these COM messages of yours.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> > However, there are still millions and millions of people who

> > have never heard the name "Prabhupada" nor the expression

> > "brahminical culture", and who are cow-eaters on top of that,

> > and still they don't rape their children.

>

> But they do.

 

There are still millions and millions who don't.

Don't twist my clear point.

 

The point is that it is quite possible to not became a child

molester, even without knowing just any of Srila Prabhupada's

instructions, even without not being on the platform of a brahminical

culture. Not all animals, for example, are know for raping their

offspring, if I am not wrong. Please correct me, Jahnu, you seem to

be well researched and in possession of fitting statistics. How

about male elks in Sweden? How stands their ratio? Better or worse?

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

Per their request, I have deleted Prabhupada Said as a reciepient.

 

>

> >

> > Lack of following Srila Prabhupada's instructions on cow protection is the

> > mother of all our problems.

 

> > Gurukula abuse is a failure of maintaining brahminical standards, as will

> > happen if cow protection is not there.

>

> Cool comment. Nothing else but the unfulfillment of

> the aim of life (due to lack of cow protection) is the explanation

> for sexual abuse of children.

 

That is neither what I said nor what I meant so I won't address your comment.

 

> Either "we" make it back to

> Godhead, or "our" children will be raped by "us", Krsna's devotees

> who missed to follow Srila Prabhupada's instruction on cow

> protection.

 

Sorry Mahaniddhi, nothing is quite that simple. Cow protection is the basis

of

VAD. Without VAD, we are operating in an inferior social order, which will

have all kinds of problems, one of which is, as history has shown us, the

abuse of children.

 

>

>

> However, there are still millions and millions of people who have

> never heard the name "Prabhupada" nor the expression "brahminical

> culture", and who are cow-eaters on top of that, and still they

> don't rape their children. How to explain to them these reasons

> for Krsna's children having been obnoxiously abused by Hare Krsna

> teachers in the spiritual society ISCKON?

> "Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

>

> - mnd

 

First, not all devotees abused children, not all teachers abused children.

Some teachers abused children, just like happens in regular society. Maybe

worse, because in regular society, the system at least acknowledges that

imperfection exists and tries to deal with it.

 

In ISKCON, a very simplistic view of the world, us the devotees the good

guys, and them the karmis the bad guys led to a situation where the delusions

of grandeur amongst the leaders wouldn't let them see that we are just ordinary

like everybody else. thus, with an unrealistic view of the world, the

cheaters had freer rein to cheat.

[Guest guest]

> Why don't they do something

> now? Nothing it seems since these kids need crazy people like

> Pratyatosa and Puranjana to speak their case.

 

See it as an indicatin of where "our children" prefer to put

their trust to, after getting the chance to brake from. Remember,

"we" used to be proud about "our next generation of leaders" that

were being produced in gurukulas.

 

The difference now is that they have become grown up. They

used to be children, ISCKON children. Look for the causes,

you presented yourself to be expert in it.

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> > Cool comment. Nothing else but the unfulfillment of

> > the aim of life (due to lack of cow protection) is the explanation for

> > sexual abuse of children.

>

> That is neither what I said nor what I meant so I won't address your

> comment.

 

I know you didn't say, however such oversimplified conclusions

do have their impact even if you yourself might not have it.

Something like one of those "sutras" - "It's all the karma".

Perhaps.

 

I appreciated Sriram prabhu's presentation. He took the time and

energy upon himself to look closer to the problem, helping everybody

to try to think and understand what and where actually it went wrong.

Now, he like you could also make his analysis so laconic like you

did: "We failed to take care of cows". But he didn't, on contrary he

even pointed in his letter on effects of such an approach. Then

seeing, right after his letter, again exactly some of these

oversimplifications (Jahnu's and yours), I couldn't help but not

appreciate it, out of different reasons. Sorry.

 

 

 

>

> Sorry Mahaniddhi, nothing is quite that simple. Cow protection is the

> basis of VAD. Without VAD, we are operating in an inferior social order,

> which will have all kinds of problems, one of which is, as history has

> shown us, the abuse of children.

 

I do agree with you, the difference is only that I, in this moment,

recognize the possibility of operating even on that an inferior social

order and yet trying to prevent the abuse of children. Establishment

of VAD as the remedy to child abuse is, as far as I am concerned,

a cake in the sky. A promised ice-cream to a frustrated child.

 

Now, regardless of any kind of social order, you got no guaranty

that some individuals wouldn't go nuts and do horrible acts of

abusing/killing children. You will still have some Ashvatamas eve

if you would be Yudhistira, even in the presence of Krsna Himself.

 

 

>

> First, not all devotees abused children, not all teachers abused

> children. Some teachers abused children, just like happens in regular

> society. Maybe worse, because in regular society, the system at least

> acknowledges that imperfection exists and tries to deal with it.

>

 

The social system is the reflection of general community's

consciousness. Now, having advertised ourselves to the world as

the spiritual society, the international society for Krsna

consciousness, we seem only to be proving to be almost up to

"normal" society. The society that is being bashed on the morning

and evening classes millions of times as a demoniac.

 

But I do accept your message that on the highest level of social

arrangement, in VAD system, it would be better. Thanks for the

information.

 

 

 

> In ISKCON, a very simplistic view of the world, us the devotees the good

> guys, and them the karmis the bad guys led to a situation where the

> delusions of grandeur amongst the leaders wouldn't let them see that we

> are just ordinary like everybody else. thus, with an unrealistic view of

> the world, the cheaters had freer rein to cheat.

 

 

That is exactly my point, Madhava Gosh prabhu. With such an

over simplistic "analyses" of the cause of child abuse: "The

lack of cow protection", you are leaving out there an entire

uncovered field of activities, where the same cheaters will

still have their freer reins to cheat. Though you might neither

say nor mean it so.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> Janaka wrote:

>

> > Protecting abused kids and their parents from people like you,

> > is nice service for Krsna and Srila Prabhupada.

 

Jahnu Prabhu wrote:

 

> Really? How are you doing that, o wise one? Do you think that

> your inane assertions on COM will protect the children and their

> parents? And why do you think they need protection from me? What

> did I do to them?

 

For no reason, you are calling them " ZOMBIES " and " STUPID " , which is

very offencive.I dont mind when you call me names, but I do mind when you do

that to other innocent vaisnavas.

 

Y.s. Janaka das

[Guest guest]

> > But they do.

>

> There are still millions and millions who don't.

> Don't twist my clear point.

 

I don't twist anything. I am just pointing out your lack of

coherence. If you want to compare ISKCON devotees to meat-eating

karmis you have to come up with some statistics. Do you know the

number of children out of how many in ISKCON that were abused?

Otherwise how does your statement that millions and millions of

karmis do not abuse their children make sense? Are you implying

that that a great number of devotees in ISKCON, in fact the

majority, are abusing children? What are you trying to say?

 

> The point is that it is quite possible to not became a child

> molester, even without knowing just any of Srila Prabhupada's

> instructions, even without not being on the platform of a

> brahminical culture. Not all animals, for example, are know for

> raping their offspring, if I am not wrong. Please correct me,

 

Is that the point?? Excuse me, what's the point of that? What are

you trying to say? That we shouldn't follow Srila Prabhupada's

instructions because then we become child-abusers, is that what

you are saying?

 

> Jahnu, you seem to be well researched and in possession of

> fitting statistics. How about male elks in Sweden? How stands

> their ratio? Better or worse?

 

You lost me, Mahanidhi. I don't have a clue about what you are

trying to say.

[Guest guest]

> > > "Lack of caw protection". Laconic.

> >

> > So what is _your_ explanation, o wise one?

>

> Since you are sending me e-mail calling me stupid in private,

> and in public you are addressing me as "wise one", I have my

> sincere doubts in your honest interest to hear my explanation.

> So, don't bother.

 

ok. I won't

[Guest guest]

If somebody is wondering why I am adding the public conference

to it:

 

 

 

I will always make it public whenever an abuser is on his march.

Putting aside the vulgarity (that's Jahnu's personal quality),

and not considering for a moment his mindless attempts to insult

me personally (he couldn't digg out no other dirt in my life, but

my birth), I will nevertheless point out publicly the abuser.

 

 

Jahnu's being a chauvinist here, he is insulting millions of

people who by birth happen to be from "Yugo-land". He is insulting

the millions of people who were the victims of the war atrocities

and who didn't become killers and rapists. For Jahnu a person born

in "Yugo-land" is by default an idiot, a murderer and a rapist.

Jahnu is thus insulting my parents, my brothers, all my family

members... and everybody else who by birth happen to be form

"Yugo-land" and is not rubber-stamped by Jahnu as a "bona fide"

ISCKON-iate.

I will never tolerate these kind of abuses, especially if they

come from pretenders that hide behind Srila Prabhupada's image,

who act in Prabhupada's name as so-called defenders of him and

ISCKON. But simply perversiveness and sect mentality poorly

disguised.

 

 

I can't do much about at the moment but simply make it

public; keeping abusers and abuses in private is what gave to

child abusers the dark and quiet room to act in, to go abusing

one after another...

Besides, Jahnu's obvious self-confidence in his mad attacks on

anybody that his sick mind directs him on, discloses to me that

he feels quite secure. He's not afraid of any sanction from the

side of those who are his masters, who supply him with his paycheck/

maintenance, who keep him engaged in such "service" to ISCKON.

He knows. So, in the absence of any system of justice (chauvinistic

attacks against personal integrity of people are against law and

are punishable, as it is a form of abuse), I can only make it

public.

 

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> Why the fuck do you write me then? Where would you be without

> ISKCON, huh? Over there in Yugo-land killing and raping like all

> the other idiots over there.

 

 

YOU, dear sir, are way out of line here.

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why Mahaniddhi sends my private letters to him

in a public conference.