Guest guest Posted October 6, 1999 Report Share Posted October 6, 1999 Regarding Prabhupada's disciples taking "re-initiation" and receiving new names from Narayan Maharaja. Istagosthi With Senior Devotees, Vrndavan, Nov. 1994 ------------- The entire transcript can be found at: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9903/WD10-3289.html TKG: One very important point is hari-nama initiation. There is criticism of his style of hari-nama initiation. TKG: He gives the Gaudiya Matha hari-nama initiation, not the ISKCON hari-nama initiation. That's got nothing to do with us. But with Western devotees, he makes them chant 16 rounds and follow the four principles. He has accepted Prabhupada's standard. He has no doubt that Prabhupada knows what's best. He just doesn't do a big yajna. Giriraja Swami: Narayana Maharaja has mentioned that he appreciates Prabhupada's system in ISKCON more than the system in his institution. He is not the acarya of his institution and he is loyal, so he may not be able to make changes, but he does appreciate Prabhupada's genius and inspiration in relation to preaching and organizing a spiritual movement. ------------ DS: The matajis working in the Gurukula or who worked in the Gurukula, at least those ladies - they don't talk to anybody about Narayana Maharaja. GS: I understood from our talk yesterday that you only wanted to ask two things: Vinod Vani about her statements at Visvarupa Mahotsava and Jadurani and Karta about their pet names. Bhurijan Prabhu: And I thought Jadurani and Karta should also be asked whether they were capturing or converting other ladies by actively preaching and canvassing. GS: I understood from our talk yesterday that you only wanted to ask two things: Vinod Vani about her statements at Visvarupa Mahotsava and Jadurani and Karta about their pet names. BP: And I thought Jadurani and Karta should also be asked whether they were capturing or converting other ladies by actively preaching and canvassing. GS: Regarding the pet names, I'd like to explain my understanding. He gave them the pet names. They didn't ask for new names. The implication of the critics is that the new names indicate some sort of gross or subtle initiation. I think that's the real question. He gave them the names; I don't think we can question that. I think the real question is how they understand it and how they perceive it. Pancaratna Prabhu: The criticism I heard was Jadurani to Syamarani, meaning from Dwaraka-lila to Vrindavan. ?: So there are two parts to it. One is the conception that there is some sort of reinitiation, not reinitiation but additional initiation, taking place, some sort of spiritual bond. BP: And also a question about disloyalty regarding the name Prabhupada gave them. [Jadurani dasi, Karta dasi, and Vinod Yani dasi enter.] Karta dasi (K): May I say something? I was the first person to whom he gave a pet name. It was due to a very simple thing. My name Karta means doer or creator. It is a masculine name. When I first came to Narayana Maharaja years ago and he asked me what my name was, I said Karta. It was interesting for him to hear this name and he laughed and said humorously, "Swami Maharaja had so many disciples that he ran out of names. I would like to call you by another name." It wasn't anything. We weren't meeting him. We didn't have a relationship. It wasn't really based on anything. It was just because it's funny for him, who is familiar with the language, to call me, "Doer." Like, "Doer, can you come here?" Or, Creator, come and see me." It was a light meeting, kind of natural. We were not establishing our relationship based on something that I understand about him in the spiritual realm or anything. So he said, in a rather light way, that he will call me another name. It wasn't until about a year later that he said, "You know, I think I'll call you like this." So he said my name and then, "Will people understand?" And I said, "It will be only for us. Why should it be for anybody else? It's not relevant to anybody else." So that's what happened. It was light. Of course, our relationship became close, so it might be taken in another way. But it's only an affectionate way of addressing. He actually said, "Gaura Priya Karta." So it's not even replacing. Also, it means a relationship. Like Krsna has many relationships with different devotees. He's Yasoda-nandana, Devaki-nandana, Nanada-nandana, according to the relationship He has with His devotees. In the same way I see it like, well, if you have a siksa-guru (and I take him as siksa-guru), I have a certain way of relating to him. It wasn't something thought up, or an imposition, or adding anything. It was just natural. TKG: There is another point. Many among those who visit him have names which apparently have nothing to do with Vrindavan-lila. Was that the issue? Did you in this way get your "service name"? K: Of course not. BP: I would like to know. How many of the people who go and see him has he given names to? K: As far as I know, only Jadurani and me. TKG: After 6 years, all this commotion is about Narayana Maharaja giving pet names to two matajis. Unbelievable! BP: I just want to add one little thing. At least for myself when I see Karta or Jadurani, I call them Karta or Jadurani. PP: Do you have anything to say, Jadurani? Jadurani: You all know I did the painting of Radha-Syamasundara. Sometimes people give nicknames to others on the basis of something done. Like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had one sannyasi who had some name, Gaura Narayana, or some name with Gaura, and he renamed him Badri Narayana because he visited Badrinath. It was a temporary name in relation to a particular situation. So in relation to the painting, he gave me a name because I was serving Radha-Syamasundara or Radha-Syama. Radharani is Syamarani, the beloved of Krsna. So that service got me the nickname. Most of the times he calls me Jadurani and sometimes he calls me Syamarani. Prabhupada also had a nickname for me, which was Sadhurani. Prabhupada told me, back in the late sixties, at 26th 2nd Avenue, that "So many of my Godbrothers nicknamed each other different names." It's quite common. So it is not unstandard. Also, Prabhupada's name, which he was given by his diksa-guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, was Abhay Caranaravinda, and then his Godbrothers gave him another name, Bhaktivedanta, which was further established at the time of his sannyasa initiation. So it's not uncommon in our line, whether it's a nickname or a real name. It has nothing to do with reinitiation or disloyalty to one's diksa-guru. Also on two occasions, one in New Jersey, when Prabhupada was convalescing from that heart attack, and on one other occasion, Prabhupada told me, "When you go back to Godhead, you'll be a servant of Radharani." I did not then have the interest to inquire further. But I understand that Prabhupada wants me to go back to Godhead in Vrindavan. And Narayana Maharaja told me that your Prabhupada wants you to go not to Dvaraka, but to Vrindavan. So it's all in connection with Srila Prabhupada. We're talking in the Prabhupada Centennial about Prabhupada consciousness and being more in tune with Prabhupada. Perhaps not everything that we do now in service or in our zones or in relation to disciples has been written to us in a letter from Srila Prabhupada or in his books. But we may nevertheless feel that Prabhupada is inspiring us to act. When we give Bhagavatam class we often pray. "Please give me the words so I may give this class." So my heartfelt conviction is that Prabhupada instructed me to go to Narayana Maharaja. And if Narayana Maharaja did give me a nickname or try to sway me to Vrindavan, it is coming from none other than Srila Prabhupada. How is it being disloyal? I never met anybody who has given me so much love and faith and appreciation and heartfelt feeling for Srila Prabhupada as Srila Narayana Maharaja. PP: Two other points. During the Visvarupa Mahotsava ceremony Vinod Vani mataji spoke with some feeling. And I don't know, but the impression was one of.... GS: TKG and I put a statement on GBC Com that we spoke at Visvarupa Mahotsava specifically to satisfy Narayana Maharaja and his followers because of the offense committed on Balarama's Appearance Day. Although we tried our best, people are still talking about what happened. They haven't forgotten. So we explained that we weren't defying the GBC body or desiring that people accept Narayana Maharaja as siksa-guru or as the acarya of ISKCON. We were just speaking to try and mitigate the offense on Balarama's Appearance day. [To Vinod Vani] BP: How about the canvassing question? There's been complaints that Karta and Jadurani canvas or have canvassed for people to go to Narayana Maharaja. TKG: I'll give an example. Lokanath Swami has a disciple named Madhavi. So Maharaja is feeling that perhaps she was canvassed and now she's involved with Narayana Maharaja. K: I can speak because Madhavi is a very good friend of mine. She is a particular kind of person. Lokanath Maharaja probably knows very well. When I first met her, three, four years ago, she was very attracted to go to babajis. DS: She once told me she wanted to build a house in Radha-kunda, under some babaji. I stopped her. K: She came to me asking questions about Deity worship because I have Govardhana silas and she wanted to know about Govardhana sila. This is the way she approached me. Then she started saying things which made me realize she was mixed up. She didn't know very much what she was doing and she had this intense attraction for babajis, for going in a different direction. So I preached to her through the years. And now she has no intentions to go to the babajis. She now wants to serve her Guru Maharaja. She is very attached to her Guru Maharaja and very concerned to serve him properly, so he is happy with her. She's actually never had any direct connection with Srila Narayana Maharaja except when the whole temple went. And none of us took her. She knows what's going on and she has asked and she respects. But she prefers to remain aloof. So she's not been canvassed about it; she's actually been saved from a kind of contamination about babajis. I joke with her. I say, Don't go away from this sampradaya. Her guru also speaks to her. She's actually doing very well now. LS: I've only asked about her going out and preaching and distributing books - she doesn't want to go outside Vraja. ....... K: I actually have a long-standing experience because I was in L.A. when the whole Sridhar Maharaja thing was going on. I saw everything that happened and how they dealt with it. It was very unfortunate the way they dealt with it because it could have been dealt with in a better way that could have avoided some problems. So I have been purposely careful not to take anybody there personally. I'm speaking for myself. And whoever goes there goes because Srila Narayana Maharaja is a very famous and attractive person. Especially now, because there's so much controversy, people are attracted to go, even more than before. ---------------------- The entire transcript can be found at: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9903/WD10-3289.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 1999 Report Share Posted October 6, 1999 Regarding Prabhupada's disciples taking "re-initiation" and receiving new names from Narayan Maharaja. Istagosthi With Senior Devotees, Vrndavan, Nov. 1994 ------------- The entire transcript can be found at: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9903/WD10-3289.html TKG: One very important point is hari-nama initiation. There is criticism of his style of hari-nama initiation. TKG: He gives the Gaudiya Matha hari-nama initiation, not the ISKCON hari-nama initiation. That's got nothing to do with us. But with Western devotees, he makes them chant 16 rounds and follow the four principles. He has accepted Prabhupada's standard. He has no doubt that Prabhupada knows what's best. He just doesn't do a big yajna. Giriraja Swami: Narayana Maharaja has mentioned that he appreciates Prabhupada's system in ISKCON more than the system in his institution. He is not the acarya of his institution and he is loyal, so he may not be able to make changes, but he does appreciate Prabhupada's genius and inspiration in relation to preaching and organizing a spiritual movement. ------------ DS: The matajis working in the Gurukula or who worked in the Gurukula, at least those ladies - they don't talk to anybody about Narayana Maharaja. GS: I understood from our talk yesterday that you only wanted to ask two things: Vinod Vani about her statements at Visvarupa Mahotsava and Jadurani and Karta about their pet names. Bhurijan Prabhu: And I thought Jadurani and Karta should also be asked whether they were capturing or converting other ladies by actively preaching and canvassing. GS: I understood from our talk yesterday that you only wanted to ask two things: Vinod Vani about her statements at Visvarupa Mahotsava and Jadurani and Karta about their pet names. BP: And I thought Jadurani and Karta should also be asked whether they were capturing or converting other ladies by actively preaching and canvassing. GS: Regarding the pet names, I'd like to explain my understanding. He gave them the pet names. They didn't ask for new names. The implication of the critics is that the new names indicate some sort of gross or subtle initiation. I think that's the real question. He gave them the names; I don't think we can question that. I think the real question is how they understand it and how they perceive it. Pancaratna Prabhu: The criticism I heard was Jadurani to Syamarani, meaning from Dwaraka-lila to Vrindavan. ?: So there are two parts to it. One is the conception that there is some sort of reinitiation, not reinitiation but additional initiation, taking place, some sort of spiritual bond. BP: And also a question about disloyalty regarding the name Prabhupada gave them. [Jadurani dasi, Karta dasi, and Vinod Yani dasi enter.] Karta dasi (K): May I say something? I was the first person to whom he gave a pet name. It was due to a very simple thing. My name Karta means doer or creator. It is a masculine name. When I first came to Narayana Maharaja years ago and he asked me what my name was, I said Karta. It was interesting for him to hear this name and he laughed and said humorously, "Swami Maharaja had so many disciples that he ran out of names. I would like to call you by another name." It wasn't anything. We weren't meeting him. We didn't have a relationship. It wasn't really based on anything. It was just because it's funny for him, who is familiar with the language, to call me, "Doer." Like, "Doer, can you come here?" Or, Creator, come and see me." It was a light meeting, kind of natural. We were not establishing our relationship based on something that I understand about him in the spiritual realm or anything. So he said, in a rather light way, that he will call me another name. It wasn't until about a year later that he said, "You know, I think I'll call you like this." So he said my name and then, "Will people understand?" And I said, "It will be only for us. Why should it be for anybody else? It's not relevant to anybody else." So that's what happened. It was light. Of course, our relationship became close, so it might be taken in another way. But it's only an affectionate way of addressing. He actually said, "Gaura Priya Karta." So it's not even replacing. Also, it means a relationship. Like Krsna has many relationships with different devotees. He's Yasoda-nandana, Devaki-nandana, Nanada-nandana, according to the relationship He has with His devotees. In the same way I see it like, well, if you have a siksa-guru (and I take him as siksa-guru), I have a certain way of relating to him. It wasn't something thought up, or an imposition, or adding anything. It was just natural. TKG: There is another point. Many among those who visit him have names which apparently have nothing to do with Vrindavan-lila. Was that the issue? Did you in this way get your "service name"? K: Of course not. BP: I would like to know. How many of the people who go and see him has he given names to? K: As far as I know, only Jadurani and me. TKG: After 6 years, all this commotion is about Narayana Maharaja giving pet names to two matajis. Unbelievable! BP: I just want to add one little thing. At least for myself when I see Karta or Jadurani, I call them Karta or Jadurani. PP: Do you have anything to say, Jadurani? Jadurani: You all know I did the painting of Radha-Syamasundara. Sometimes people give nicknames to others on the basis of something done. Like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had one sannyasi who had some name, Gaura Narayana, or some name with Gaura, and he renamed him Badri Narayana because he visited Badrinath. It was a temporary name in relation to a particular situation. So in relation to the painting, he gave me a name because I was serving Radha-Syamasundara or Radha-Syama. Radharani is Syamarani, the beloved of Krsna. So that service got me the nickname. Most of the times he calls me Jadurani and sometimes he calls me Syamarani. Prabhupada also had a nickname for me, which was Sadhurani. Prabhupada told me, back in the late sixties, at 26th 2nd Avenue, that "So many of my Godbrothers nicknamed each other different names." It's quite common. So it is not unstandard. Also, Prabhupada's name, which he was given by his diksa-guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, was Abhay Caranaravinda, and then his Godbrothers gave him another name, Bhaktivedanta, which was further established at the time of his sannyasa initiation. So it's not uncommon in our line, whether it's a nickname or a real name. It has nothing to do with reinitiation or disloyalty to one's diksa-guru. Also on two occasions, one in New Jersey, when Prabhupada was convalescing from that heart attack, and on one other occasion, Prabhupada told me, "When you go back to Godhead, you'll be a servant of Radharani." I did not then have the interest to inquire further. But I understand that Prabhupada wants me to go back to Godhead in Vrindavan. And Narayana Maharaja told me that your Prabhupada wants you to go not to Dvaraka, but to Vrindavan. So it's all in connection with Srila Prabhupada. We're talking in the Prabhupada Centennial about Prabhupada consciousness and being more in tune with Prabhupada. Perhaps not everything that we do now in service or in our zones or in relation to disciples has been written to us in a letter from Srila Prabhupada or in his books. But we may nevertheless feel that Prabhupada is inspiring us to act. When we give Bhagavatam class we often pray. "Please give me the words so I may give this class." So my heartfelt conviction is that Prabhupada instructed me to go to Narayana Maharaja. And if Narayana Maharaja did give me a nickname or try to sway me to Vrindavan, it is coming from none other than Srila Prabhupada. How is it being disloyal? I never met anybody who has given me so much love and faith and appreciation and heartfelt feeling for Srila Prabhupada as Srila Narayana Maharaja. PP: Two other points. During the Visvarupa Mahotsava ceremony Vinod Vani mataji spoke with some feeling. And I don't know, but the impression was one of.... GS: TKG and I put a statement on GBC Com that we spoke at Visvarupa Mahotsava specifically to satisfy Narayana Maharaja and his followers because of the offense committed on Balarama's Appearance Day. Although we tried our best, people are still talking about what happened. They haven't forgotten. So we explained that we weren't defying the GBC body or desiring that people accept Narayana Maharaja as siksa-guru or as the acarya of ISKCON. We were just speaking to try and mitigate the offense on Balarama's Appearance day. [To Vinod Vani] BP: How about the canvassing question? There's been complaints that Karta and Jadurani canvas or have canvassed for people to go to Narayana Maharaja. TKG: I'll give an example. Lokanath Swami has a disciple named Madhavi. So Maharaja is feeling that perhaps she was canvassed and now she's involved with Narayana Maharaja. K: I can speak because Madhavi is a very good friend of mine. She is a particular kind of person. Lokanath Maharaja probably knows very well. When I first met her, three, four years ago, she was very attracted to go to babajis. DS: She once told me she wanted to build a house in Radha-kunda, under some babaji. I stopped her. K: She came to me asking questions about Deity worship because I have Govardhana silas and she wanted to know about Govardhana sila. This is the way she approached me. Then she started saying things which made me realize she was mixed up. She didn't know very much what she was doing and she had this intense attraction for babajis, for going in a different direction. So I preached to her through the years. And now she has no intentions to go to the babajis. She now wants to serve her Guru Maharaja. She is very attached to her Guru Maharaja and very concerned to serve him properly, so he is happy with her. She's actually never had any direct connection with Srila Narayana Maharaja except when the whole temple went. And none of us took her. She knows what's going on and she has asked and she respects. But she prefers to remain aloof. So she's not been canvassed about it; she's actually been saved from a kind of contamination about babajis. I joke with her. I say, Don't go away from this sampradaya. Her guru also speaks to her. She's actually doing very well now. LS: I've only asked about her going out and preaching and distributing books - she doesn't want to go outside Vraja. ....... K: I actually have a long-standing experience because I was in L.A. when the whole Sridhar Maharaja thing was going on. I saw everything that happened and how they dealt with it. It was very unfortunate the way they dealt with it because it could have been dealt with in a better way that could have avoided some problems. So I have been purposely careful not to take anybody there personally. I'm speaking for myself. And whoever goes there goes because Srila Narayana Maharaja is a very famous and attractive person. Especially now, because there's so much controversy, people are attracted to go, even more than before. ---------------------- The entire transcript can be found at: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9903/WD10-3289.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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