Free Speech In Iskcon

[Guest guest]

On 29-Oct-99 11:17: Dvaipayana Vyasa Prabhu & Mataji Madhusudani Radha

d.d.wrote to Topical Discussions with a copy forwarded by Harsi to the

varnasrma conference:

 

 

<<Recently, several attempts have been made to silence certain members of this

conference - to stop them from voicing their opinion on Topical Discussions -

in a rather dirty way. Certain persons who did not like the fact that on TD a

lot of otherwise untouchable subjects may be discussed, approached gurus of

persons whose posts they did not like>>

 

I read this with incredulity since the mataji sent me three letters attempting

to curtail my own free speech when I requested joining the Top. Dis.

conference. The following is a response to her which she refuses to answer. The

sentences preceded by a > are the original comments sent by the mataji and my

comments follow. It may be of interest to note that I had already responded by

stating that I wouldn't curtail anyone's free speech as acknowledged in her

opening statement.

 

> Thank you for stating that you won't curtail anyone's free speech.

 

Isn't that enough? But it doesn't seem that the same courtesy of allowing me

my own free speech is to be granted by the explicit mood of this letter.

 

Does

>that mean that you won't tell anyone that they're ruining their

>spiritual lives if they have doubts in Prabhupada or talk about

>"contradictions" in his writings? Will you not tell them that they're

>destined for hell for disagreeing with Prabhupada, nor call them

>"blasphemers"?

 

I guess that depends on what they say. Do you not see any where stated

opinons or perceptions could ulitimately end one's spiritual life or could

be construed as blasphemy? What is your definition of blasphemy? What do you

feel is Prabhupada's position in the movement?

>

>Will you refrain from pulling rank due to being a Prabhupada disciple if

>a junior disagrees with you?

 

I have never drawn on seniority. However, do you not foresee a situation

where an older, more experienced devotee should be given proper respect (not

talking about me here). Is that a problem for you and your conference? In

this conference, do you accept any authority(ies) at all?

>

>Will you refrain from criticising members for using their own brains,

>logic or common sense instead of basing all their answers on sastra?

 

This reflects what I just stated above. What is your opinion on the

authority of sastra? What is your definition of brains, i.e. intelligence?

>

>Will you refrain from criticising them for using other sources that

>Prabhupada's books when considering the various issues discussed?

 

Certainly not. However, when those 'other sources' contradict the

conclusions of the Bhagavatam, Gita, Srila PRabhupada, the 6 Goswamis, Lord

Caitanya, etc., what should be done?

>

>Will you refrain from telling them that their time for doubt should have

>been restricted to *prior to* initiation only and that now, once

>initiated, they have no right to express doubts?

 

My understanding is that the doubts should have been breached before taking

initiation. Isn't that the process? When you accept a spiritual master, he

is accepted to be as good as God. So wouldn't someone who has accepted a

spiritual master without proper deliberation, actually not be understanding

the process? How do you define the process and responsibility of accepting

intitiation?

>

>These are issues that have all been discussed already and the members

>want to move on to actually discussing the topics on their minds and in

>their hearts, but without having to deal with the above objections.

>They have already heard those many, many times, on COM and in their

>temple communities.

>

>This conference is a safe space in which all thoughts and doubts can be

>discussed in a respectful manner.

 

Then why are you so uptight about me and my thoughts? Your questions go WAY

BEYOND the statement on the conference about free speech. You seem to be

talking hypocritically since you are trying to establish a protocol for me

that is different from the others on the conference.

>

>We believe that these doubts exist out there and that the only way to

>deal with them is to do so in a safe and open space. By intimidating or

>threatening those who are opening up, we only drive them under ground or

>out of ISKCON.

 

That may be true but at the same time it is quite possible that ISKCON isn't

a place for everyone. That is, there is an accepted morality, lifestyle and

philosophy that goes with it as set out be a long line of spiritual masters.

Is your conference meant to understand Krsna conscious perspectives of

topical issues or an attempt to bring down the philosophy and lifestyle to

the level of one's own understandings and attachments?

>

>Then they'll go to the ritviks, or to NM or somewhere else. They may

>even leave KC all together, feeling that they don't want to be a part of

>such an intolerant religion.

 

I am not sure if I understand your point. You talk about being open minded

and speak highly of developing a tolerant religion but then talk

intolerantly about the ritvik and NM followers. What if someone's brain,

logic and other sources convince them that these routes are the ones to

follow. Are you going to speak out against them? Of course not t because

that would be intolerant and would incorporate all the values you speak up

against. I find your logic to be arbitrary and ill-defined. It would seem

that you might deport anyone from the conference that you don't agree with

since you don't have any guidelines.

 

Frankly, I have never found KC to be intolerant but rather have found

different members within the movment intolerant. That doesn't mean that it

is a total free-for-all and a laissez-faire situation, either. And at the

same time, many devotees have left. But quite often it is because they

cannot handle the discipline and process and head out on their own anyways.

Hopefully, you are not suggesting that we change the whole process only in

order to keep converts. Haven't we learned anything from Kirtananada.

 

 

>

>I'm not saying that this conference is for everyone. Some people find it

>too painful to listen to doubts. That's why we're only allowing members

>who can agree to the above. Having the discussion on the mirror forum in

>an un-organized way, didn't work. It led to people having parallel

>discussions that were not seen by the COM members. Thus they felt that

>their words were being discussed behind their backs. It also meant that

>anyone could join even if s/he did not agree with the conference

>guidelines.

 

Who has approved the conference guidelines? They seem rather novel and

abritrary. Frankly, I am not interested in the process of how the COM works.

THis mirror thing is new to me. Why can't all the postings on both the COM

and mirror forum be cross-posted. If they aren't, then who decides what goes

where? [END LETTER]

 

The actual controversy that seems to have been sparked by postings on the Top.

Dis. conference that Dvaipayana Vyasa Prabhu & Mataji Madhusudani Radha write

about, are what MANY devotees perceive as direct confrontations on the

parampara and disrespect towards Srila Prabhupada and have complained to their

respective GBC members. Certainly, these two individuals aren't going to

complain about depending upon a system set up to stop deviation by Srila

PRabhupada himself. And if they are correct then they should just provide their

Krsna conscious explanation to the GBC members and certainly there won't be any

further problems.

 

I am not going to include the objectionable statements here because they are

hurtful and in fact inaccurate assessments of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and

words. Madhusudani Radha's method of discussion, in at least one case, has been

to deport him from the TD discussions and now in my case, not to allow others

to participate.

 

WHat I find hypocritical is that in my discussions with the mataji, she

continually harps about free speech while making an obvious attempt at

curtailing mine. Shouldn't the discussions on the Top. Dis. conference attempt

to be trying to understand the practical application of Srila Prabhupada's

instruction in relation to topical discussions.

 

The involvement of the Mataji Madhusudani Radha also brings back memories of

the VAST conference and their similar nonsense statements. In her case in

particular, my experience with her is that she is continually trying to adjust

our philosophy and lifestyle to bring it in line with her mundane education

where contraception, buggery and homosexuality are all accepted activities.

Thankfully, it hasn't worked but she and others who share similar views haven't

given up. For this, we should be aware.

 

Many members of this conference will recall the discussions between myself,

Mother Hare Krsna dasi and Madhusudani Radha where they were advocating the

footnoting of Srila Prabhupada books seemingly motivated by some of his

statements regarding women's position in society.

 

It may be recalled that they were easily defeated by quoting Srila PRabhupada's

words. Now we see that there is an attempt to disparage Srila PRabhupada's

words and stature within the movement through absolutely petty personal

criticisms of Srila Prabhupada. If one was to be cynical, it could be deduced

that this is the next logical step (to minimize Prabhupada's position in the

movement) since they are constantly being defeated with quotes from Srila

Prabhupada.

 

If this is an organized activity or simply a pushing of the lower modes due to

mundane attachments is beyond my knowledge presently. However, a pattern is

evolving that should provide none of us any solace. It is a cancer which will

destroy our movement and will easily eclipse the debates on guru issues and our

relation to the Gaudiya Matha.

 

It is important that our movement doesn't look for leadership or vision from

mundane scholars such as Madhusudani Radha, Rochford or their like. They can

perhaps help us in understanding issues but unless they are in line with Srila

Prabhupada's instructions, then they are useless and insignificant. From these

people the best we could possibly achieve is method, never vision. In that

department, we have Srila Prabhupada and let us all work together to keep his

position eminent.