Guest guest Posted November 16, 1999 Report Share Posted November 16, 1999 >It was also concluded that 14 cows have been slaughtered. Horrible. It's no surprise that of the 14 killed, 3 were female and 11 were male. There appears to be a parallel between the way farms have focused on milking cows and neglected training oxen with our human social organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 1999 Report Share Posted November 16, 1999 Dear Prabhus, Dandavats! Jayasrila Prabhupada! We are so sorry to hear of the untimely death of our mothers. YS, Srutakirti dasa Kusha devi dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 1999 Report Share Posted November 16, 1999 The very sad thing is that the number included *eight* trained oxen. What a tragedy for all the devotees who invested their hearts in cultivating a relationship with these animals -- only to have them killed by a demoniac temple leader. I have said for many years that an ox's training is his life insurance. This case has proved that sometimes the opposite is true. Evidently Drumilla when loading a trailer with animals to sell, selected the *trained* oxen first because they were more agreeable and easier to handle. The majority of the untrained animals were left at Murari. Bhaktin Debbie told me that when she went to the stockyards to investigate whether the animals had been actually sold to slaughter (it was confirmed they had been), the stock handler said that he had remembered them, that they stood out because they were so tame and cooperative. They were not wild. She explained to him, "Yes, those animals were trained to haul logs out of the woods. They are very obedient and they like people." She said that even he felt very bad about it. So, this takes us back to Srila Prabhupada's statement at the end of the fourth canto -- that *under the protection of the ksatriyas* the vaisyas will protect the animals. Obviously, if there is no proper administrative oversight for the welfare of the cows, everything will go to hell. The vaisyas can't do everything on their own. This whole issue points to huge administrative problems which need to be soberly assessed and addressed. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Sita wrote: [Text 2781766 from COM] >It was also concluded that 14 cows have been slaughtered. Horrible. It's no surprise that of the 14 killed, 3 were female and 11 were male. There appears to be a parallel between the way farms have focused on milking cows and neglected training oxen with our human social organization. "COM: ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2780951 from COM] > > Dear Prabhus, > > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! > > We had promised to keep everyone updated as to the happenings at Murari > Sevaka so that truth will prevail and not fiction. > > There was a meeting of the Murari governing board yesterday. The decision > was made to keep the remaining cows. Prithu prabhu was voted in as the > CO-GBC. He has brought 6 men there to help take care of the cows. > Investigation of legal repercussions towards Drumilla are continuing to be > pursued. Within a week there will be a detailed report from the board. > > It was also concluded that 14 cows have been slaughtered. There are legal > papers in hand of the actual sale. We pray that this act will not be > forgotten, that the perpetrator will not go unpunished, that the Executive > committee take some action or make some statement, and in short that action > which can set a precedent is taken so that it be clearly understood that > victimization of Lord Krsna's most vulnerable citizens (and any citizens) is > not according to our most beloved spiritual master's, Srila Prabhupada's, > desire and vison for The International Society for Krsna Consciousness. > > COWS + OXEN SENT TO SLAUGHTER BY DRUMILA : > > They are: > > 1) Varuni - cow , (Black Angus mix) 4 Yrs. old (not Trained) sent > for breeding (now known to be slaughtered) > 2) Indra - oxen , (Brown Swiss mix) 8 --10 Yrs. old (not Trained) > 3) Cintamani - cow , (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) sent for breeding > (now known to be slaughtered) > 4) Indra - Bull, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) sent for breeding (now > known to be slaughtered) > 5) Chota - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) > 6) Maha - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) > 7) Dharma - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) > 8) Bhima - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) > 9) Bala - oxen, (Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) > 10) Prabhu - oxen, (Long Hair Jersey) 4 Yrs. old (Trained) > 11) Bimba - oxen, (Red Angus+Brown Swiss) 6 Yrs. old (Trained) > 12) Tala - oxen, (Black Angus+Brown Swiss) 6 Yrs. old (Trained) > > GIVEN TO JOHNNY LEE BY DRUMILA . SENT TO SLAUGHTER > BY JOHNNY LEE. > > Hamsi - cow, (Herford mix ?) 12 Yrs.old > Hamsi's Bull calf. He was about 1wk. old when given away. > > Your servant, > Balabhadra das > ISKCON Minister for Cow Protection and Agriculture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 1999 Report Share Posted November 16, 1999 HKdd wrote: >The very sad thing is that the number included *eight* trained oxen. What a >tragedy for all the devotees who invested their hearts in cultivating a >relationship with these animals -- only to have them killed by a demoniac >temple >leader. I beg your pardon. I should have said "neglected *utilizing* oxen". The trained oxen that were killed were mostly only 4 years old, 6 years old maximum, plus there was a bull calf. What was I getting at? We need to engage males properly. On the human level, there are not enough grhastha men in management and part of this is because many of our sannyasis relate better to women than to men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 1999 Report Share Posted November 16, 1999 At 8:47 -0800 11/16/99, Sita devi dasi wrote: > >What was I getting at? We need to engage males properly. On the human >level, there are not enough grhastha men in management....... Finally something we agree on. I'd also add women and youth to that list. It's time for management to become more representative of the membership, which will lead to a greater understanding of the issues faced by our grhastas. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 > So, this takes us back to Srila Prabhupada's statement at the end of the > fourth canto -- that *under the protection of the ksatriyas* the vaisyas > will protect the animals. Obviously, if there is no proper administrative > oversight for the welfare of the cows, everything will go to hell. The > vaisyas can't do everything on their own. "One leg of the man who kills a cow, goat, elephant and camel should be chopped off. The man who kills small animals and deer should be fined twice damas (fee, punishment). The man who kills insects and worms should be fined one masa of silver and the owner of the animals should be paid his price." (Matsya Purana, ch 227, text 89-90) This is from a long chapter on how the king must punish culprits and criminals in his kingdom. It is repeatedly emphasized that enforcing punishments is one of the prime duties of the king. I am not quoting this because I am advocating the chopping of limbs but it seems clear that in vedic society even the killer of small animals was fined what to speak of a killer of cows. Here are more interesting quotes from the end of the chapter: "One who sets at liberty a man kept in confinement or a culprit worthy of being sent to the gallows should be punished twice as much as prescribed for the real culprit. If the officers of a king do anything unmindfully they should be fined thirty times the amount prescribed which the kings should offer to Lord Varuna.If a servant of the state inflicts less or more than prescribed, he should be made to recoup the shortcomings fo his own pocket. The sin that a sovereign commits in taking the life of an innocent person is just the same as is accrued in protecting a man worthy of being condemned to death. A brahmana guilty of any crime, howsoever serious it may be, should not be condemned to death. He should only be deprived of his wealth and banished. A brahmana should never be killed for there is great sin in doing so. The king who does not punish a man worthy of being condemned and punishes an innocent man merits enormous discredit and goes to hell. A king should always punish a guilty person after duly contemplating the gravity of the offense in consultation with a brahmana." (Texts 210-217) Some thoughts which cross my mind after reading these texts: In ISKCON, who is the king who will punish the devotee who sold the cows? Is it the GBC? If it is the GBC, who is the brahmana in consultation with who the GBC will contemplate the gravity of the offense? If it is not the GBC, should not the GBC empower a person or a group of persons to investigate and issue a binding sentence lest they want to be impicated in the sin of killing a cow? Is Drumilla das a brahmana? If yes, should he not be banished and deprived of his wealth or at least be fined twice the amount he earned from selling the cows? Where is Drumilla das now? Where is the money that he received? Why did he sell the cows in the first place? Who is investigating this case? ys Anantarupa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, COM: Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN) wrote: > [Text 2785597 from COM] > > > Is Drumilla das a brahmana? If yes, should he not be banished and deprived > of his wealth or at least be fined twice the amount he earned from selling > the cows? Where is Drumilla das now? Where is the money that he received? > Why did he sell the cows in the first place? Who is investigating this case? > > ys Anantarupa This was a good letter to provide a Vedic perspective on the case. You are right: We don't want to chop off limbs, but we do need to provide some form of punishment. Also, those who through their neglect assist in the escape of a criminal should be called to task. One point here is that we should not be so sentimental to assume that everyone who has ever worn saffron or had his head shaved is a brahmana. Prthu's son chastised Indra when he falsely posed as a sannyasi. Prabhupada states that there are always false sannyasis. It seems natural to conclude that there are also false brahmanas. Another point is that although it is usually stated that a brahmana cannot be punished severely, there is one passage in the Manu Samhita which states that when a brahmana steals from other brahmanas he should hand his stick (danda??) to the king, and the king should strike him dead in one blow. So there is some provision for punishing brahmanas. Obviously, we are not in the position to administer a death sentence (thank the Lord, given our tendency to make mistakes in our judgement) but still this shows that philosophically, there is some provision for punishment of brahmanas, even under the Vedic scripture. But in the present case, the more important point is whether Drumilla could even be considered a brahmana. I personally would say he was simply an imposter. I'm interested to see what ISKCON's authorities will say. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 > > > The sin that a sovereign commits in taking the life of an innocent person is > just the same as is accrued in protecting a man worthy of being condemned to > death. Yes, we do need to avoid the lynch mob mentality and remember that not all accused are guilty, and a rush to judgement may not properly sort out the innocent from the guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 At 9:09 -0800 11/17/99, Martin wrote: > >In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty >of sending innocent animals to slaughter. There is no doubt that the memebrs of these conferences could come up with some fitting punishment for Drumilla. But we don't have COM justice - yet. What *is* the procedure for bringing someone like him to justice in ISKCON and what is actually being *done* right now? Does anyone even know where he is? Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty of sending innocent animals to slaughter. Animals which were protected and loved by the devotees. He came only for a short period ot Murari so he had no knowledge of these cows and definitely had no attachment for them. It would have been better had he gone to the slaughter house and let these animals stay and serve Krishna with their lives. He deserves whatever punishment he gets. This was not some ommission or mistake, it was a blatant disregard for the life of these cows. He is a low class sob and I hope he pays dearly and continues to pay for one thousand lifetimes. I guess yall get the point. Anyone who has ever loved and felt the love of our mother and father should know exactly how we all feel towards this so called person. YS Dvibhuja Das COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA) <Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se> COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Mukhya (dd) (SysOp) (Lund - S) <Mukhya (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Wednesday, November 17, 1999 5:50 AM Re: Murari Update >[Text 2786152 from COM] > >> >> >> The sin that a sovereign commits in taking the life of an innocent person is >> just the same as is accrued in protecting a man worthy of being condemned to >> death. > >Yes, we do need to avoid the lynch mob mentality and remember that not all >accused are guilty, and a rush to judgement may not properly sort out the >innocent from the guilty. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 We are waiting to hear some kind of response on this from the GBC Executive Committee. It is interesting to note that when the Vrndavana women-beating incident took place, the GBC chairman responded within a couple days with some assessment and a directive. These cows were sold to slaughter back in June during the Panihatti Festival, and still we have heard no official comment from the GBC Executive Committee, five months later. If you think being a woman puts you in an un-protected position in ISKCON -- try being a cow. Then why should anyone protect you? -- you aren't even collecting money to build temples. You are simply a burden on ISKCON. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2786551 from COM] > > At 9:09 -0800 11/17/99, Martin wrote: > > > >In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty > >of sending innocent animals to slaughter. > > There is no doubt that the memebrs of these conferences could come up with > some fitting punishment for Drumilla. But we don't have COM justice - yet. > What *is* the procedure for bringing someone like him to justice in ISKCON > and what is actually being *done* right now? Does anyone even know where > he is? > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 - COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA) > >In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty > >of sending innocent animals to slaughter. > > There is no doubt that the memebrs of these conferences could come up with > some fitting punishment for Drumilla. But we don't have COM justice - yet. > What *is* the procedure for bringing someone like him to justice in ISKCON > and what is actually being *done* right now? Does anyone even know where > he is? > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi > These are the questions we have. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Martin wrote: > [Text 2786351 from COM] > > In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty > of sending innocent animals to slaughter. Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? We certainly can't be seen as advocating that sort of thing. But what if in the next case the accused WASN"T guilty. We have to think about how all this will play out overall, and not just in this specific case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 On 18 Nov 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > Martin wrote: > > > [Text 2786351 from COM] > > > > In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty of sending innocent animals to slaughter. > > Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? We certainly can't be seen as advocating that sort of thing. > > But what if in the next case the accused WASN"T guilty. We have to think about how all this will play out overall, and not just in this specific case. > The thing with Drumila, knowing him a little from the past, is that I have to wonder how much he was spiritually concious of what he was doing. He can be a bit 'wound-up' when under pressure -- possibly also accused of becoming self-centered and defensive when he feels overwhelmed. Anger leads to bewilderment of intelligence -- like that. Still, no matter how he might explain his activities, you really can't explain them from a devotional perspective. Certainly, if our children became a burden, we wouldn't sell them, etc. At least I would hope not. ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 On 17 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > > These cows were sold to slaughter back in June during the Panihatti Festival, and still we have heard no official comment from the GBC Executive Committee, five months later. > > So far there's been what appears to be a very thorough investigation which has reported evidence strongly suggesting willful misconduct by any and every standard of devotional practice. Drumila has apparently left the property and resigned from all positions of responsibility. As there are no laws against the slaughter of cows in the US, and legally speaking Drumila was acting as an ISKCON director, our legal opportunities are either limited or nil. Basically, all the GBC can do now is 'comment' that Drumila's alleged actions are inexcusable. Beyond that, what can we expect? It is unfortunate that Drumila was ever given so much responsibility within a project -- obviously he didn't have a clue how to handle it in an auspicious manner. You know, we can blame the GBC, and often righfully so, but where are the qualified devotees willing to take responsibility for these various projects? ys, Sthita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 On 18 Nov 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > Martin wrote: > > > [Text 2786351 from COM] > > > > In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty > > of sending innocent animals to slaughter. > > Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? Yes it would be awful. Then the hot head would be a criminal. Let Krsna give that kind of punishment in His own way. We can treat him like a child molester: insistence on counseling, banning, forced reparations, ex-communication, etc. i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 In the case of Drumilla, those are difficult questions to answer except for the one whether he is guilty. If there was any doubt I would not be in favor of ridiculing and blasheming a devotee. No matter what it lookded like. But in this case he admitted it after it was obvious his henious plot had been uncovered by Damon and Debbie. In the first we should never do illlegal deeds, but Krishna is the ultimate judge in the form of Lord Yamaraja, so no one has to break legs. Legs aren't a big deal. That would actually be for those who are compassionate to him. Killing those innocent animals carries a very great reaction indeed. We as simple humans don't have the ability to carry out such things. He should read the 5th canto and also understand that the devotees ultimately pray that he becomes purified and takes shelter of Lord Caitanya. We also were very sinful before being delivered by Srila Prabhupada, but the killing of these animals is so abhorable that we should show outrage lest someone not get the deep deep IMPORTANCE of never allowing the cows to be harmed. They are not just cows but Krishna's cows. Special souls taking shelter of Lord Caitanya. Even they wern't beautiful enough to satisfy the senses of Drumilla. I guess he wanted surabhi cows for his holiness pleasure. Anyway I pray that I don't create any offense but I can't help but show how bad it is what he has done. I know some could say what about this cow getting stuck, or this one falling etc, but to knowingly participate in sending them to the slaughter house. NO NO it should never even enter the mine of a devotee. So Drumilla is sick of course, so in that way I guess you could see him like a criminally insane. YS Dvibhuja Das COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA) <Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se> COM: Mukhya (dd) (SysOp) (Lund - S) <Mukhya (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:20 PM Re: Murari Update >[Text 2787823 from COM] > > > >Martin wrote: > >> [Text 2786351 from COM] >> >> In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty >> of sending innocent animals to slaughter. > >Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? We certainly >can't be seen as advocating that sort of thing. > >But what if in the next case the accused WASN"T guilty. We have to think about >how all this will play out overall, and not just in this specific case. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 In the case of Drumilla, those are difficult questions to answer except for the one whether he is guilty. If there was any doubt I would not be in favor of ridiculing and blasheming a devotee. No matter what it lookded like. But in this case he admitted it after it was obvious his henious plot had been uncovered by Damon and Debbie. In the first we should never do illlegal deeds, but Krishna is the ultimate judge in the form of Lord Yamaraja, so no one has to break legs. Legs aren't a big deal. That would actually be for those who are compassionate to him. Killing those innocent animals carries a very great reaction indeed. We as simple humans don't have the ability to carry out such things. He should read the 5th canto and also understand that the devotees ultimately pray that he becomes purified and takes shelter of Lord Caitanya. We also were very sinful before being delivered by Srila Prabhupada, but the killing of these animals is so abhorable that we should show outrage lest someone not get the deep deep IMPORTANCE of never allowing the cows to be harmed. They are not just cows but Krishna's cows. Special souls taking shelter of Lord Caitanya. Even they wern't beautiful enough to satisfy the senses of Drumilla. I guess he wanted surabhi cows for his holiness pleasure. Anyway I pray that I don't create any offense but I can't help but show how bad it is what he has done. I know some could say what about this cow getting stuck, or this one falling etc, but to knowingly participate in sending them to the slaughter house. NO NO it should never even enter the mine of a devotee. So Drumilla is sick of course, so in that way I guess you could see him like a criminally insane. YS Dvibhuja Das COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA) <Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se> COM: Mukhya (dd) (SysOp) (Lund - S) <Mukhya (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:20 PM Re: Murari Update >[Text 2787823 from COM] > > > >Martin wrote: > >> [Text 2786351 from COM] >> >> In the case of Drumilla however he has been 100 percent shown to be guilty >> of sending innocent animals to slaughter. > >Wouldn't it be awful if some hot head went and broke his knees? We certainly >can't be seen as advocating that sort of thing. > >But what if in the next case the accused WASN"T guilty. We have to think about >how all this will play out overall, and not just in this specific case. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 At 0:09 -0800 11/18/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) wrote: > > >Still, no matter how he might explain his activities, you really can't explain >them from a devotional perspective. Certainly, if our children became a >burden, we wouldn't sell them, etc. At least I would hope not. That's how many of the Mumbai sex workers got into their professions. Their parents were poor and decided that, rather than having to provide dowry for a daughter who would then simply move into her in-laws house and take care of them in their old age, it would be better for them to sell their daughters into sex work. I'm not saying they're taking their decision lightly (maybe they are and maybe they're not, I haven't interviewed any such parents), but to them it appears to make financial sense - not unlike Drumilla's decision must have done to him. I don't think it had anything to do with a devotional perspective in either case. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 On 17 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > It is interesting to note that when the Vrndavana women-beating incident took place, [Mahaman Prabhu has just recently written: Dear Vipramukhya Maharaj, Please accept my humble obiesances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please publish the following explanation on my behalf and on behalf of the Vrindavan Leaders whose names are mentioned at the end. ============================================================================ It was a management issue and not man/woman conflict. --------------------- This is to humbly submit to the community of Vaishnavas all over the world that what happened in Vrindavan between the Vrindavan Management and some matajis headed by Parvati was purely an administrative and managerial issue. It had nothing to do with undermining the position of women devotees. The following detailed account should make everything clear. About three weeks ago, just after the curtains opened for mangala aratik at 4:30 am. HH Giriraj swami approached me and complained to me that he could not even have darshan of the Radha Syamsundar altar or offer his obeisances because the whole altar was taken over by the ladies even before the curtains were opened. Previous to this, several other sannyasis and other devotees including HH Lokanath Swami and HH Radha Govinda Maharaj had also complained that they were experiencing difficulties in offering obeisances in front of the Radha Syamsundar altar. The management committee discussed this issue and resolved that sannyasis and men be allowed to take darshan and offer obeisances to Radha Syamsundar until the passing of the ghee wick lamp. The men would then move towards the Krsna Balaram altar leaving Radha Syamsundar altar free for the women till the end of mangala aratik. This system for darshan was suggested by the ladies themselves. The next morning a clear announcement was made about this decision. On the day when this arrangement was to begin, I was personally present early in the temple room and was surprised to see that some ladies were already holding tightly to the railings infront of the altar. I requested some of the matajis to please move back and let the men offer their obeisances and after the ghee wick lamp is passed they could come forward. Some of these ladies followed my instructions gracefully but some others like Anada and Parvati flagrantly refused. Parvati started pushing even the innocent and obedient ladies to the front. This created an embarassing sitution for the men who were surrounded by the ladies. The management and other devotees were naturally very upset by this unruly and defiant behavior. As a solution to this problem the management team decided to go back to the system that has been existing since the time of Srila Prabhupada, i.e. the men stand in front and the ladies at the back. So Aindra Prabhu moved his 24 hour kirtan party in front of Radhe Shyam's altar and many other brahmacaris joined him. Angered that her plan was not successful Parvati started to push around the men on the Krsna Balaram and Gaur Nitai altars. She started elbowing everybody out, pushing them and shoving them. Because she pushed the brahmacaris first, the brahmacaris who were already alarmed by her previous day's misbehavior pushed back in self defense. This is what Parvati calls gang rape, hugging, molestation etc. When she got what she was giving to others she started fabricating all kinds of lies and stories such as that women were gang raped, hugged, molested etc. in front of the deities. We have rarely seen a more deceitful and shameless attempt to lie and make up a story. Look at the travesity of justice! Here is the person who acts in the most uncivilized, uncultured and uncooperative manner and she uses the words gang raped, hugged etc. and the whole ISKCON world without asking us starts believing her and passes judgement on us. Perhaps because we are too soft and too gentle and too easy a target. It is surprising that Braj Bihari Prabhu without verifying the story from both sides supports Parvati's version. As a matter of fact Braj Bihari prabhu admitted to me that he was not present in the temple room on the day these incidents are alleged to have taken place. So much for his assessment of the events ! "It was awful." BY this statement he has misled a large section of readers on this website. Braj Bihari's opinion in the form of several points is refuted as follows. 1) It is not true that the ladies unknowingly or unintentionally entered the men's space. I personally and our temple commander pleaded with the ladies to gracefully move back. Some complied, others blatantly defied. I found out later that as soon as the announcement regarding darshan had been made, Parvati began insulting me and instigating the women to defy the management. This defiance of the management by the ladies headed by Parvati was preplanned and executed in full force. 2) Mediation with a person of an uncontrollable temperament like Parvati's is impossible especially under the intense situation during the festival. As a matter of fact, even after some reconciliatory steps have been taken, she still keeps pushing her weight around without any respect for the management. 3) Indeed the management has its take on what happened. 4) Parvati's statements are complete lies. Just look at the extent to which Parvati and some other women stooped when they instigated a potential donor to allegedly cancel a check for a $100,000 to ISKCON! Srila Prabhupada instructed us to observe proper ettiquette in Vrindavan. Unfortunately, however, our attempt to promote this is taken as exploitation, and we are blamed, even by some persons who have contributed to the correspondence in this matter and are known to be scandalous. Leaders and devotees in general should take note that the Vrindavan temple arranges the Kartik Festival with great dexterity even though every year we run into a loss of Rs.200,000.00. We feel privilleged to render this service to all Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis. In order to enable us to do this service year after year, we request all the guests to please cooperate with the temple management and follow the ettiquette that is expected of guests. This will insure that the mood of the festival is not spolied as it was during this Kartik by a small group of women. The management of ISKCON Vrindavan is committed to, amongst other things, holding festivals for the benefit of Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis. We shall not tolerate the disturbances created by the likes of Parvati in the future. Further, the management of ISKCON Vrindavan has always engaged women in responsible services and have taken great care to meet their needs. Up until three weeks ago there were no complaints about disharmony between men and women. We assure you that to keep harmony between men and women is one of our goals. Thank you. compiled by Your Servant, Mahaman Das. And supported by Lokanath Swami Radha Govinda Swami Deena Bandhu Das Pancagauda Das Prem Kishore Das Mukunda Datta Das Vaishnava Das Ganapati Das Gaur Narayan Das Iswar Das Laxman Das Devarata Dasa Aindra Das Sarvabhauma Das Braj Bhumi Das Radha Kunda dd. Brijbasi dd. Paramhamsa dd. Guruprasad dd. ------ End of forwarded message ------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 On 17 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > It is interesting to note that when the Vrndavana women-beating incident took place, [Mahaman Prabhu has just recently written: Dear Vipramukhya Maharaj, Please accept my humble obiesances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please publish the following explanation on my behalf and on behalf of the Vrindavan Leaders whose names are mentioned at the end. ============================================================================ It was a management issue and not man/woman conflict. --------------------- This is to humbly submit to the community of Vaishnavas all over the world that what happened in Vrindavan between the Vrindavan Management and some matajis headed by Parvati was purely an administrative and managerial issue. It had nothing to do with undermining the position of women devotees. The following detailed account should make everything clear. About three weeks ago, just after the curtains opened for mangala aratik at 4:30 am. HH Giriraj swami approached me and complained to me that he could not even have darshan of the Radha Syamsundar altar or offer his obeisances because the whole altar was taken over by the ladies even before the curtains were opened. Previous to this, several other sannyasis and other devotees including HH Lokanath Swami and HH Radha Govinda Maharaj had also complained that they were experiencing difficulties in offering obeisances in front of the Radha Syamsundar altar. The management committee discussed this issue and resolved that sannyasis and men be allowed to take darshan and offer obeisances to Radha Syamsundar until the passing of the ghee wick lamp. The men would then move towards the Krsna Balaram altar leaving Radha Syamsundar altar free for the women till the end of mangala aratik. This system for darshan was suggested by the ladies themselves. The next morning a clear announcement was made about this decision. On the day when this arrangement was to begin, I was personally present early in the temple room and was surprised to see that some ladies were already holding tightly to the railings infront of the altar. I requested some of the matajis to please move back and let the men offer their obeisances and after the ghee wick lamp is passed they could come forward. Some of these ladies followed my instructions gracefully but some others like Anada and Parvati flagrantly refused. Parvati started pushing even the innocent and obedient ladies to the front. This created an embarassing sitution for the men who were surrounded by the ladies. The management and other devotees were naturally very upset by this unruly and defiant behavior. As a solution to this problem the management team decided to go back to the system that has been existing since the time of Srila Prabhupada, i.e. the men stand in front and the ladies at the back. So Aindra Prabhu moved his 24 hour kirtan party in front of Radhe Shyam's altar and many other brahmacaris joined him. Angered that her plan was not successful Parvati started to push around the men on the Krsna Balaram and Gaur Nitai altars. She started elbowing everybody out, pushing them and shoving them. Because she pushed the brahmacaris first, the brahmacaris who were already alarmed by her previous day's misbehavior pushed back in self defense. This is what Parvati calls gang rape, hugging, molestation etc. When she got what she was giving to others she started fabricating all kinds of lies and stories such as that women were gang raped, hugged, molested etc. in front of the deities. We have rarely seen a more deceitful and shameless attempt to lie and make up a story. Look at the travesity of justice! Here is the person who acts in the most uncivilized, uncultured and uncooperative manner and she uses the words gang raped, hugged etc. and the whole ISKCON world without asking us starts believing her and passes judgement on us. Perhaps because we are too soft and too gentle and too easy a target. It is surprising that Braj Bihari Prabhu without verifying the story from both sides supports Parvati's version. As a matter of fact Braj Bihari prabhu admitted to me that he was not present in the temple room on the day these incidents are alleged to have taken place. So much for his assessment of the events ! "It was awful." BY this statement he has misled a large section of readers on this website. Braj Bihari's opinion in the form of several points is refuted as follows. 1) It is not true that the ladies unknowingly or unintentionally entered the men's space. I personally and our temple commander pleaded with the ladies to gracefully move back. Some complied, others blatantly defied. I found out later that as soon as the announcement regarding darshan had been made, Parvati began insulting me and instigating the women to defy the management. This defiance of the management by the ladies headed by Parvati was preplanned and executed in full force. 2) Mediation with a person of an uncontrollable temperament like Parvati's is impossible especially under the intense situation during the festival. As a matter of fact, even after some reconciliatory steps have been taken, she still keeps pushing her weight around without any respect for the management. 3) Indeed the management has its take on what happened. 4) Parvati's statements are complete lies. Just look at the extent to which Parvati and some other women stooped when they instigated a potential donor to allegedly cancel a check for a $100,000 to ISKCON! Srila Prabhupada instructed us to observe proper ettiquette in Vrindavan. Unfortunately, however, our attempt to promote this is taken as exploitation, and we are blamed, even by some persons who have contributed to the correspondence in this matter and are known to be scandalous. Leaders and devotees in general should take note that the Vrindavan temple arranges the Kartik Festival with great dexterity even though every year we run into a loss of Rs.200,000.00. We feel privilleged to render this service to all Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis. In order to enable us to do this service year after year, we request all the guests to please cooperate with the temple management and follow the ettiquette that is expected of guests. This will insure that the mood of the festival is not spolied as it was during this Kartik by a small group of women. The management of ISKCON Vrindavan is committed to, amongst other things, holding festivals for the benefit of Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis. We shall not tolerate the disturbances created by the likes of Parvati in the future. Further, the management of ISKCON Vrindavan has always engaged women in responsible services and have taken great care to meet their needs. Up until three weeks ago there were no complaints about disharmony between men and women. We assure you that to keep harmony between men and women is one of our goals. Thank you. compiled by Your Servant, Mahaman Das. And supported by Lokanath Swami Radha Govinda Swami Deena Bandhu Das Pancagauda Das Prem Kishore Das Mukunda Datta Das Vaishnava Das Ganapati Das Gaur Narayan Das Iswar Das Laxman Das Devarata Dasa Aindra Das Sarvabhauma Das Braj Bhumi Das Radha Kunda dd. Brijbasi dd. Paramhamsa dd. Guruprasad dd. ------ End of forwarded message ------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 1999 Report Share Posted November 19, 1999 On 16 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote: > The very sad thing is that the number included *eight* trained oxen. What a > tragedy for all the devotees who invested their hearts in cultivating a > relationship with these animals -- only to have them killed by a demoniac > temple > leader. Dear Mataji, Just what is your position? Are you a member of the Investigation team, official spokesperson for the Min. of Ag, or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 1999 Report Share Posted November 19, 1999 On 16 Nov 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: I'd also add women and youth to that list. > It's time for management to become more representative of the membership,> which will lead to a greater understanding of the issues faced by our grhastas. > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi > Mataji, You didn't mention homosexuals. Shouldn't they also add to the greater understanding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 1999 Report Share Posted November 19, 1999 Dear Vyapaka Prabhu; These kind o remarks are not necesary. These devotees all have the same goals. Just different opinions. Mother Madhudasani and Mother Hare Krishna give valuable opinions and I for one worthless soul really appreciate the input. I pray they don't become too offended and think we don't apprreciate their work. I am sure that there are lots of people who like to hear different opinions. There may be some disagreement but still we are all rying to work together to cfind common ground. Mothers and cows have a lot of similarities so that is natural they should be discussed by the same people. The remarks about Gays is out of place in these types of discussions. We are not bigots, simply trying to do what each soul thinks best to make sure that the cows are protected. Your input is also good however, just please be more polite to the matajis, as they are our mothers. YS Dvibhuja Das WWW: Vyapaka (Dasa) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) <vyapaka (AT) accel (DOT) net> COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Friday, November 19, 1999 4:51 AM Re: Murari Update >[Text 2791815 from COM] > >On 16 Nov 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > >I'd also add women and youth to that list. >> It's time for management to become more representative of the membership,> >which will lead to a greater understanding of the issues faced by our >grhastas. >> >> Ys, >> Madhusudani dasi >> > >Mataji, > >You didn't mention homosexuals. Shouldn't they also add to the greater >understanding? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 1999 Report Share Posted November 19, 1999 >You didn't mention homosexuals. Shouldn't they also add to the greater >understanding? They will be there whether you recruit them or not. Unlike women and youth, they can't be easily identified, and are unlikely to self-disclose given current climate in ISKCON. My suggestion was based on a sincere desire to involve all ISKCON subgroups so that we can begin to solve some of the problems that are plaguing our movement. By including representatives from many sections of our membership, we increase the likelihood that a wide range of issues and solutions will be brought to the table and that the solutions will be sensitive to the needs of these different groups. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I didn't get the feeling that your post above was based on a similar genuine desire to be inclusive. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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