Murari Update

[Guest guest]

Dvibhuja Das commented:

>These kind o remarks are not necesary. These devotees all have the same

>goals. Just different opinions. Mother Madhudasani and Mother Hare

Krishna

>give valuable opinions and I for one worthless soul really appreciate the

>input. I pray they don't become too offended and think we don't

apprreciate

>their work

They certainly have their right to offer their opinions especially Mataji

Madhusudani Radha d.d. who is such a strong proponent of free speech on COM.

If their work is in line with guru, sadhu and sastra then their work can

only be appreciated. I wonder why it is receiving so much flak?

> I am sure that there are lots of people who like to hear different

>opinions. There may be some disagreement but still we are all rying to

work

>together to cfind common ground. Mothers and cows have a lot of

>similarities so that is natural they should be discussed by the same

people.

>The remarks about Gays is out of place in these types of discussions. We

>are not bigots, simply trying to do what each soul thinks best to make sure

>that the cows are protected.

Mother M.R. d.d. is a strong spokesmother for all of the downtrodden and has

often spoken out for gay marriages. I found it curious why she left them

out.

In regard to the new revelations by Mother H.K.d.d., I find it amazing that

she can be making such announcements. This is not the first time I have seen

her make such allegations. Perhaps she is the spokemother for the Min. of

Ag. but I have never seen such a notification. IF so, I apologize. However,

if she isn't; then why is she commenting so publicly on issues that are in

the midst of an investigation by the Min. of Ag. and Balavanta? It is

irresponsible and improper on her part, even if the accusations are true.

If there was no investigation being undertaken and mataji was taking on the

thankless role of being the whistleblower, then that is another matter.

However, since the issue is before the "courts" then what are we to

conclude?

> Your input is also good however, just please be more polite to the

>matajis, as they are our mothers.

I apologize. No impoliteness was intended.

 

Respectfully,

 

Vyapaka dasa

[Guest guest]

Madhusudani Radha wrote:

>Please correct me if I'm

>wrong, but somehow I didn't get the feeling that your post above was based

>on a similar genuine desire to be inclusive.

 

Sorry, Mataji, you're wrong.

 

It is obvious that there will be gay members of our movement but your's and

others' perspective is to change the philosophy to allow these type of

activities. That is dangerous. The only real pure devotee that I have put my

trust in is Srila PRabhupada. That doesn't say that there aren't more pure

devotees, possibly many more, because I don't know everyone's hearts. So for

us who are not pure, myself included, we will alway be dragging our

attachments around. I have no desire to throw bricks when I live in a glass

house myself. But to drop the standard is another discussion. That is why we

have to read and study Srila Prabhupada's books. He is the acarya of the

movement and nobody should have any difficulty with that. Along with the

reading should come intense chanting, etc. in the hope that Lord Krsna will

anoint us with the proper understanding from within.

 

There seems to be an incredibly strong tendency in our movement to change

our standards based upon past failures. My take is to see how we failed to

come up to Prabhupada's standard rather than throw the standard out.

 

I am sure that is being discussed in the Topical Discussions conference but

obviously I can't know for sure.

 

Vyapaka dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> You didn't mention homosexuals. Shouldn't they also add to the greater

> understanding?

 

They have already been over represented in ISKCON management and the

misogynists in their ranks have deeply imprinted their perspectives on the

society. I believe her sugestion would began to counter that influence.

[Guest guest]

>>somehow I didn't get the feeling that your post above was based

>>on a similar genuine desire to be inclusive.

>

>Sorry, Mataji, you're wrong.

 

I'm very happy to be wrong in this case and I apologize for not realizing

that you want to be inclusive even when it comes to gay devotees.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada just wouldn't even discuss the issue of homosex due to the

fact it is so degraded. So I think our policy should be the same. I really

didn't know your point was actually pointed. I thought you were just

throwing something out there. I didn't know that you were bringing up an

already live issue between you and Mother Madhusudani. I guess it would be a

good time for me to quietly leave the room and mind my own business.

 

YS

Dvibhuja das

 

Robert Cope <vyapaka (AT) accel (DOT) net>

Martin <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)

<Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Saturday, November 20, 1999 2:50 AM

Re: Murari Update

 

 

>[Text 2794108 from COM]

>

>

>Dvibhuja Das commented:

>>These kind o remarks are not necesary. These devotees all have the same

>>goals. Just different opinions. Mother Madhudasani and Mother Hare

>Krishna

>>give valuable opinions and I for one worthless soul really appreciate the

>>input. I pray they don't become too offended and think we don't

>apprreciate

>>their work

>They certainly have their right to offer their opinions especially Mataji

>Madhusudani Radha d.d. who is such a strong proponent of free speech on

COM.

>If their work is in line with guru, sadhu and sastra then their work can

>only be appreciated. I wonder why it is receiving so much flak?

>> I am sure that there are lots of people who like to hear different

>>opinions. There may be some disagreement but still we are all rying to

>work

>>together to cfind common ground. Mothers and cows have a lot of

>>similarities so that is natural they should be discussed by the same

>people.

>>The remarks about Gays is out of place in these types of discussions. We

>>are not bigots, simply trying to do what each soul thinks best to make

sure

>>that the cows are protected.

>Mother M.R. d.d. is a strong spokesmother for all of the downtrodden and

has

>often spoken out for gay marriages. I found it curious why she left them

>out.

>In regard to the new revelations by Mother H.K.d.d., I find it amazing that

>she can be making such announcements. This is not the first time I have

seen

>her make such allegations. Perhaps she is the spokemother for the Min. of

>Ag. but I have never seen such a notification. IF so, I apologize. However,

>if she isn't; then why is she commenting so publicly on issues that are in

>the midst of an investigation by the Min. of Ag. and Balavanta? It is

>irresponsible and improper on her part, even if the accusations are true.

>If there was no investigation being undertaken and mataji was taking on the

>thankless role of being the whistleblower, then that is another matter.

>However, since the issue is before the "courts" then what are we to

>conclude?

>> Your input is also good however, just please be more polite to the

>>matajis, as they are our mothers.

>I apologize. No impoliteness was intended.

>

>Respectfully,

>

>Vyapaka dasa

>

>

[Guest guest]

> why is she commenting so publicly on issues that are in

> the midst of an investigation by the Min. of Ag. and Balavanta? It is

> irresponsible and improper on her part, even if the accusations are true.

> If there was no investigation being undertaken and mataji was taking on the

> thankless role of being the whistleblower, then that is another matter.

>

 

I agree with you on this point, that it wasn't appropriate for early public

comment. It served no purpose in this case. Had the animals been in iniment

danger, then to err on the side of hastiness would be understandable, but as

the deed is already done, the immediacy could take a back seat to

thoroughness.

 

If it can be seen that simply making an accusation gets the accusee in a lot of

trouble, then unscrupulous devotees may make untrue accusations for political

purposes.

[Guest guest]

At 6:43 -0800 11/20/99, Martin wrote:

>

> I didn't know that you were bringing up an

>already live issue between you and Mother Madhusudani.

 

It's not. It's a completely dead issue. I've never wanted to discuss it

with Vyapaka Prabhu, but he keeps bringing it up in various contexts. I

don't know why he keeps raising it as it's never led to any constructive

outcome. As I said in my previous text, the issue was about

representativeness around the table when we're trying to resolve ISKCON's

problems. Women make up 50% of the society and the youth are our future and

they have seen a great deal. We need all of their voices to help us come

up with solution.

 

This is a time of *crisis*. We need to be constructive and pull together,

not divisive or try to take jabs at each other. I can't believe anyone

would drag gay politics into this issue. That was completely uncalled for.

Gays have not been underrepresented in management and they will be present

at the table without any special recruitment efforts. Women and youth

won't. It's really that simple.

 

Let's get back to problem-solving, not being diverted by problem-creating.

 

Ys,

ps. and just for the record, the statement that I often speak out for gay

marriages is a lie. I just hope it's not a willful one.

[Guest guest]

Dar Mother Madhusudani Radha Prabhu;

 

PAMHO AGTSP

 

I for one have enjoyed hearing your comments and it does take time for the

devotees here to become more familiar with everyones different positions. I

hope to be a little more helpful and not so ciritical in the future.

The main point I have some problems with is that sometimes the devotees

taking care of the cows are shot at by those who don't have a clue about the

whole situation and this isn't at all fair. For instance I beleive it was

Niscala prabhu or it could have been someone else, but they kept saying

something about a cow being carried in a front end loader. Now to someone

who doesn't know anything about cow maintenance this may sound abhorable.

However the sling thing which the same person suggested is much more painful

and and harmful for the cow. Now of course it depends how he was loaded on

the front end loader, etc, but still the point is the devotee was probably

doing everything he could to save the cow. The author of the complaint

however was quick to demonize this devotee. Did this devotee have a chance

to explain or did this person explain the overall difficulties the devotee

had. This is just for an example purpose, but it is this kind of attack on

devotees doing the best they can under sometimes very difficult

circumstances that I consider counterproductive.

I know that sometimes cow protection is not perfect, but still we

shouldn't allow criticism unless there is some credentials. Like maybe you

are involved with some type of management or have some record of helping

with cow protection. Something at least, I am not sure what. But what is

to keep someone who may or may not be mentally stable from just wanting to

blast some farm community or some devotee even they may have a gripe with.

So on this conference at least maybe if someone is lodging a complaint they

should lodge it with ISKCOWP and let it be validated, before just being so

critical of the farm commnities efforts. Honestly sometimes these people

don't do anything but complain and this is not at all helpful.

I hope this is clear as I sometimes have trouble being succint in my

remarks.

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)

<Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Saturday, November 20, 1999 8:30 AM

Re: Murari Update

 

 

>[Text 2794743 from COM]

>

>At 6:43 -0800 11/20/99, Martin wrote:

>>

>> I didn't know that you were bringing up an

>>already live issue between you and Mother Madhusudani.

>

>It's not. It's a completely dead issue. I've never wanted to discuss it

>with Vyapaka Prabhu, but he keeps bringing it up in various contexts. I

>don't know why he keeps raising it as it's never led to any constructive

>outcome. As I said in my previous text, the issue was about

>representativeness around the table when we're trying to resolve ISKCON's

>problems. Women make up 50% of the society and the youth are our future and

>they have seen a great deal. We need all of their voices to help us come

>up with solution.

>

>This is a time of *crisis*. We need to be constructive and pull together,

>not divisive or try to take jabs at each other. I can't believe anyone

>would drag gay politics into this issue. That was completely uncalled for.

>Gays have not been underrepresented in management and they will be present

>at the table without any special recruitment efforts. Women and youth

>won't. It's really that simple.

>

>Let's get back to problem-solving, not being diverted by problem-creating.

>

>Ys,

>ps. and just for the record, the statement that I often speak out for gay

>marriages is a lie. I just hope it's not a willful one.

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 21:23 -0800 11/20/99, Martin wrote:

>

>I for one have enjoyed hearing your comments and it does take time for the

>devotees here to become more familiar with everyones different positions. I

>hope to be a little more helpful and not so ciritical in the future.

 

I didn't think you had been critical at all. It was Vyapaka's comments

about gays that I thougth were uncalled for. I have no credentials when it

comes to cow protection. I'm not even on the cow conference. I think I'm on

this thread because I'm a member of the Varnasrama conference and it's also

a receiver.

 

Unfortunately, I do have experience in abuse investigations, although until

now, they have all focused on child abuse and domestic violence. However,

somehow it seems like all these crimes are connected.

 

In the child abuse area we have had a triple focus:

1) investigating allegations of past abuse

2) trying to get compensation for the victims

3) setting up structures to prevent future abuse

 

We've talked a fair amount about the first point here. The second point is

moot in the case of the Murari cows. But how about the third point? What

structures are being proposed to prevent this horror from recurring? This

has been such distressing news to Vaisnavas worldwide that it may be a good

time to do some awareness raising of what's actually required to make sure

our cows are protected. I'm not pretending to have any answers, but I'd

love to see such guidelines widely distributed, just like we have done with

the child protection ones.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Dear Dvibhuja prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

.. For instance I beleive it was

> Niscala prabhu or it could have been someone else, but they kept saying

> something about a cow being carried in a front end loader. Now to someone

> who doesn't know anything about cow maintenance this may sound abhorable.

> However the sling thing which the same person suggested is much more

painful

> and and harmful for the cow. Now of course it depends how he was loaded

on

> the front end loader, etc, but still the point is the devotee was probably

> doing everything he could to save the cow.

 

Regarding the movement of downed cows. There are different ways that can be

used. One will have to consider time place and circumstance. But what we

have found to be very useful in most all cases is a low stone boat-sled

where the cow can be rolled over onto the sled and then the sled is pulled

into the area where she will be taken care of. The sling can be very hard to

put onto a downed cow as she will have to be turned and moved quite a bit to

fit the sling properly. And then she will have to be picked up, either

transported in the air or put on a wagon or truck. Also in the front end of

the loader, if the terrain is rough, or the driver is going too fast, the

cow will get all the bumps of the road. We have found that with the sled

method, the cow just needs to be rolled onto the sled, and the sled pulled.

There is no bumping and jarring as the sled glides over the terrain. The

devotee can sit on the sled with the cow, comforting her during the journey.

We have used this method many times, and everyone involved was very

satisfied.

 

Your servant,

Balabhadra das

[Guest guest]

-

COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)

What

> structures are being proposed to prevent this horror from recurring? This

> has been such distressing news to Vaisnavas worldwide that it may be a

good

> time to do some awareness raising of what's actually required to make sure

> our cows are protected. I'm not pretending to have any answers, but I'd

> love to see such guidelines widely distributed, just like we have done

with

> the child protection ones.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

Dear Madhusudana dasi,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

The Minimum Cow Protection Standards are a detailed document covering all

areas of cow care and how these standards are to be enforced. It is more of

a matter of getting devotees, rank and file and the leaders, to become

familiar with them and follow them. It took nearly 2 years to write with a

network of devotees who have experience with cow care. It is now ISKCON Law

507. They are written in layman terms so that the leaders and most of the

devotees who do not know much about cow care can understand cow protection.

If you would like a copy, I can send one via e-mail.

 

Your servant,

Chayadevi

[Guest guest]

>

> We've talked a fair amount about the first point here. The second point is

> moot in the case of the Murari cows. But how about the third point? What

> structures are being proposed to prevent this horror from recurring? This

> has been such distressing news to Vaisnavas worldwide that it may be a good

> time to do some awareness raising of what's actually required to make sure

> our cows are protected. I'm not pretending to have any answers, but I'd

> love to see such guidelines widely distributed, just like we have done with

> the child protection ones.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

This guidelines have already been approved by the GBC, the problem is one of

implementation. The theory behing the Minimum Cow Standards were that any

reasonably intelligent person could read them and then assess what was

happening

at a particular project, even if they don't have an extensive farm background.

 

Key to implementation is the requirement of quarterly visits by the GBC with a

report to be filled out and filed at the project for future reference, and

also

a copy for the Minister of Agriculture ( an unfunded ministry that lacks

resources for enforcement). Acknowledging the full plate of many GBs,

aprovision is made that the GBC can appoint a monitor to make 3 of the 4

quarterly visits on his behalf.

 

Anyone with an interest to participate should ask their GBC if they have need

of

such a monitor and volunteer. Of course, that takes more committement than

just

some conversation on COM. Rather than simply criticize the GBC, offering

service would be more useful to the cows themselves.

 

The idea is that every project is observed on a regular basis so things don't

get

out of hand. Unfortunately , so many projects are living in reality with the

mistakes of the past, but they should be encouraged to work towards

compliance.

Especially for new projects, hopefully the sad experiences of older projects

as

the learning basis for the Standards will enable them to avoid the same

mistakes.

 

Of course, every system will ultimately manifest some flaw, but we do need to

at least implement the one that has been approved.

[Guest guest]

>This guidelines have already been approved by the GBC, the problem is one of

>implementation.

 

That sounds awfully familiar.....

 

>The theory behing the Minimum Cow Standards were that any

>reasonably intelligent person could read them and then assess what was

>happening at a particular project, even if they don't have an extensive

>farm background.

 

That's great. However, what I've noticed in the child protection field is

that the first step is awareness raising and then a lot of repetiton is

needed before these standards become part of the way we think.

 

I'd like to see the standards re-posted, again and again and again,

sometimes in their full form and sometimes summarized into bullets. It's

no coincidence that Nike's hugely successful campaign only had 3 words

(Just do it). Behaviors are very hard to change and we need to intervene

on multiple levels and with many different types of messages if we are to

stand a chance.

 

What I've found in the area of child protection, is that even though

standards were approved by the GBC in 1990 (e.g. that all temple

communities with children should have a Child Protection Team), compliance

is still the exception, not the norm. I've started asking temple management

at every temple I happen to visit during business trips, if they even have

a CPT set up. I'm still waiting for the first one to say "yes".

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

I agree and that has been our experience also. I basically was making the

point that sometimes devotees take things from a perspective of a novice

regarding cow protection and make it look like the cowherd is some

abominable creature with lumps on his ncek and tobacco drooling out of his

mouth. In most cases with a closer look and more of an attempt at support

and loving cooperation the situation could be improved. However the

constant unending bashing of cow protection is counter productive. Although

of course constructive criticism is always welcome. Especially by those who

sincerely have the best interest of Krishna's cows at heart.

 

YS

Dvibhuja das

 

COM: ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Monday, November 22, 1999 6:20 AM

Re: Murari Update

 

 

>[Text 2798926 from COM]

>

>Dear Dvibhuja prabhu,

>

>Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

>

>

>. For instance I beleive it was

>> Niscala prabhu or it could have been someone else, but they kept saying

>> something about a cow being carried in a front end loader. Now to

someone

>> who doesn't know anything about cow maintenance this may sound abhorable.

>> However the sling thing which the same person suggested is much more

>painful

>> and and harmful for the cow. Now of course it depends how he was loaded

>on

>> the front end loader, etc, but still the point is the devotee was

probably

>> doing everything he could to save the cow.

>

>Regarding the movement of downed cows. There are different ways that can be

>used. One will have to consider time place and circumstance. But what we

>have found to be very useful in most all cases is a low stone boat-sled

>where the cow can be rolled over onto the sled and then the sled is pulled

>into the area where she will be taken care of. The sling can be very hard

to

>put onto a downed cow as she will have to be turned and moved quite a bit

to

>fit the sling properly. And then she will have to be picked up, either

>transported in the air or put on a wagon or truck. Also in the front end of

>the loader, if the terrain is rough, or the driver is going too fast, the

>cow will get all the bumps of the road. We have found that with the sled

>method, the cow just needs to be rolled onto the sled, and the sled pulled.

>There is no bumping and jarring as the sled glides over the terrain. The

>devotee can sit on the sled with the cow, comforting her during the

journey.

>We have used this method many times, and everyone involved was very

>satisfied.

>

>Your servant,

>Balabhadra das

>

[Guest guest]

>

> What I've found in the area of child protection, is that even though

> standards were approved by the GBC in 1990 (e.g. that all temple

> communities with children should have a Child Protection Team), compliance

> is still the exception, not the norm. I've started asking temple management

> at every temple I happen to visit during business trips, if they even have

> a CPT set up. I'm still waiting for the first one to say "yes".

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

It brings to bear the larger issue, are we as individual devotees looking to

the

GBC as brahmans, or as ksatriyas? If it were a more brahminical organization,

then compliance would be expected to arise from those with real ksatryia

tendencies of organizational and inspirational abilities. Dear Krsna, please

let

them come forth sonner, rather than later, if that's waht works for You.

 

In NV, a CPT was set up and ddi actually do a little house cleaning and also

brought in some experts to give guidance. I don't know how active it

currently

is.

[Guest guest]

Martin wrote:

 

> [Text 2799241 from COM]

>

> I agree and that has been our experience also. I basically was making the

> point that sometimes devotees take things from a perspective of a novice

> regarding cow protection and make it look like the cowherd is some

> abominable creature with lumps on his neckand tobacco drooling out of his

 

> mouth.

 

In my case , I literally do have (small) lumps on my neck, an inherited

condition, that 1 of my 5 children also has. I hope I don't do too much

damage

to the image of cowherders. :-) But I did give up chewing tobacco before I

joined the movement, will that help?

 

> In most cases with a closer look and more of an attempt at support

> and loving cooperation the situation could be improved. However the

> constant unending bashing of cow protection is counter productive. Although

> of course constructive criticism is always welcome. Especially by those who

> sincerely have the best interest of Krishna's cows at heart.

>

> YS

> Dvibhuja das

 

Especially by those who are willing to constructively put their money where

their mouth is. Or physical energy if they aren't trying to function in the

money economy. Or at least their positive prayers. At prayer can be quite

powerful.

[Guest guest]

Madhusudani Radha wrote:

>

> I'm very happy to be wrong in this case and I apologize for not realizing

> that you want to be inclusive even when it comes to gay devotees.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

Well, it is the first time I have ever seen you admit that you are wrong.

 

I am not inclusive to the point that this type of activity should be condoned

by our philosophy. Rather, gay devotees have a burden to carry and must

relieve themselves of it before they can go back home to Godhead. My memory

tells me that Prabhupada suggested that they get married to a member of the

opposite sex.

[Guest guest]

On 20 Nov 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> I don't know why he keeps raising it as it's never led to any constructive

> outcome.

 

I think that it is important that devotees understand that your many postings

continually attempt to bring down our philosophy to your mundane prespective.

 

> Ys,

> ps. and just for the record, the statement that I often speak out for gay

> marriages is a lie. I just hope it's not a willful one.

>

Your speaking up for gay marriages was made on Chakra when you were valiantly

trying to state that you don't follow the party line. I hope you are not

wilfully lying here yourself!

[Guest guest]

Are there any laws against the sale of slaughtered animal (cow)byproducts as

fundraisers for Iskcon projects? I am referring to the ghee business at New

Vrindavana. I don't know of any other project which gets funding from such

distasteful activities.

 

Wouldn't the sale of such items/products contravene at least the spirit if not

the actual standards themselves? This would seem relevant since the Min. of

Ag/H.K.d.d. has singled out the Saranagati project which isn't even an Iskcon

project.

 

> The Minimum Cow Protection Standards are a detailed document covering all

> areas of cow care and how these standards are to be enforced. It is more of

> a matter of getting devotees, rank and file and the leaders, to become

> familiar with them and follow them. It took nearly 2 years to write with a

> network of devotees who have experience with cow care. It is now ISKCON Law

> 507.

> Your servant,

> Chayadevi

>

[Guest guest]

-

WWW: Vyapaka (Dasa) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) <vyapaka (AT) accel (DOT) net>

COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama

development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:04 PM

Re: Murari Update

 

 

> [Text 2802718 from COM]

>

> Are there any laws against the sale of slaughtered animal (cow)byproducts

as

> fundraisers for Iskcon projects? I am referring to the ghee business at

New

> Vrindavana. I don't know of any other project which gets funding from such

> distasteful activities.

>

The ghee business was sold over a year ago.

[Guest guest]

>Well, it is the first time I have ever seen you admit that you are wrong.

 

Maybe we're not on a sufficient number of forums together. ;-)

 

>

>I am not inclusive to the point that this type of activity should be condoned

>by our philosophy.

 

True, no illicit sex is condoned by our philosophy, whether it be between

two members of the same or of the opposite sex.

 

But that wasn't really the topic of this thread was it? Creating a

management structure that was more representative of and sensitive to the

issues facing the whole body of devotees was.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>Your speaking up for gay marriages was made on Chakra when you were valiantly

>trying to state that you don't follow the party line.

 

Nope. Please read it again. My statement was that I had done so *in the past*.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Madhava Ghosh Prabhu wrote:

 

> It brings to bear the larger issue, are we as individual devotees looking

> to the

> GBC as brahmans, or as ksatriyas?

 

Many of the issues the GBC is forced to deal with nowadays are of a purely

administrative or kshatriya nature. The Murari cow slaughter case is an

example of this. Dealing with this case might include interrogating Drumila

das, handing him over to government authorities for prosecution or fining

him or what have you. The same goes for the ritvik court case and

investigations of past child abuse which involve such unpalatable duties as

interrogating pedophile perpetrators or listening to detailed victim

accounts of sexual abuse. Apart from dealing with this sort of penal

offences, the GBC also have to deal a lot with financial issues. How to come

up with funds to save various projects such as New Mayapur in France etc.

 

In short, the GBC are constantly forced to deal with mundane matters - how

to raise funds, how to win legal battles, how to deal with the complaints

and problems of unprotected women and children and so on.

 

Does this sound like the job description of a sannyasi or a renounced guru

whose main job is to teach and train disciples in spiritual knowledge,

renuciation and devotional service? Hardly.

 

Ok, traditionally, a brahmana can sit as a judge or he can be an advisor to

the king in political or financial matters but can he be the spiritual guide

of hundreds of disciples at the same time and perform both jobs equally

well? I doubt it. He will either be a lousy GBC or a lousy guru or both. And

he is very likely to end up frustrated and bitter and so will his disciples

and proteges.

 

My conclusion:

 

The GBC may be well advised to form two governing bodies, a brahminical one

for discussing and maintaining spiritual standards and a kshatriya one for

handling legal and financial matters.

 

The brahminical body will act as a checks and balances system to control and

evaluate the performance of the kshatriya body. They will have some kind of

veto right or the right to challenge or put in place members of the ksatriya

body if they transgress the framework of Srila Prabhupada´s instructions.

They can be advisors and coaches of the executives but they should not

unneccesarily stifle the activities of the kshatriya executive body.

 

The executive body should be allowed to take quick action and, most

importantly, they should be in office full time. Not that they meet once a

year in India, pass a few resolutions and if some new problem comes up after

the meetings you have to wait for a full year until someone will deal with

it.

 

The brahminical body will mostly be made up of renunciates, sannyasis and

gurus, and perhaps a few renounced grihasthas or vanaprasthas. This

committee will continue to meet only once or twice a year as is presently

going on.

 

The kshatriya body will be made up of grihasthas and vanaprasthas. Some of

them will be brahminically inclined but there have to be a good number of

men who are ecexutives by nature not just analysts or theorists. I think

Prabhupada once wrote to Bali Mardan that he appointed him a GBC "for his

active and daring nature."

 

These men should receive a salary and they should have funds to work with.

Not that they have to go out with paintings every now and then and collect

for their families. That´s ridiculos. As Hare Krishna dasi suggested, ISKCON

may have to introduce some kind of a tax so the GBC ministries can actually

get things done (which will often mean travelling from one part of the world

to another, maintaining permanent offices with secretaries etc.)

 

If the GBC will not do this one of two scenarios will develop:

 

1) Some GBC´s who are gurus will gradually become disgusted with their GBC

service and will want to resign because they feel so overburdened.

Hridayananda Maharaja, Bhakti Caru Maharaj and Satsvarupa Maharaja are

examples of this. All of these gurus resigned from the GBC and I think they

did the right thing.These are all very renounced personalities with a

pronounced brahminical nature and they should not be forced to deal with all

the garbage the GBC has to deal with.

 

2) Some GBC´s who are sannyasis will have a hard time maintaing their vows

or their preaching because their minds will constantly be filled with

problems, problems, problems and nothing but problems. Some GBC gurus will

be critizised more and more because they are neither efficient as a GBC nor

as a guru. Some of these may eventually fall down or collapse because the

mental pressure may become unbearable.

 

I remember standing in Harikesha Prabhus (then Swami) room in Mayapur in

1993 when he realized that he had 200 unanswered letters from disciples from

all over the world on his desk and 50 unread com messages on his computer.

At the time he was suffering from constant bouts of migraine headache and

could hardly walk from physical exhaustion. He repeatedly said: "I am

cracking up, I am collapsing." This was during the annual GBC meetings which

he attended every day inspite of his migraine. I tried to convince him to

take a few days off and relax but he refused because he felt the great

obligation to stick to his duty. Eventually he crashed for good, so to

speak.

 

This can happen to anyone unless he is superhuman. So my advice to those

GBC´s who are gurus or sannyasis but did not directly descend from the

spiritual world: Please find competent and experienced devotees in your zone

and train or empower them to become executives on the kshatriya GBC. This

will give you, your disciples and ISKCON great relief.

 

There are many such devotees in ISKCON. To name a few: Hari Sauri das,

Abhirama das, Pancaratna das,Srirama das, Dhira Govinda das, Braja Bihari

das and I am sure there are dozens of others. Personally I would consider

empowering devotees such as Janeshvara das, Srila das and Radhakrishna das

from Mexico who are all very vocal on com and one can tell that they are all

concerned and intelligent Prabhupada disciples.

 

Anyway, I am nobody and I have nothing to say but I feel sorry for the gurus

and sannyasis on the GBC and, at this point, I also feel great concern for

the plight of ISKCON. That is why I am writing this text.

 

ys Anantarupa das

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Vyapaka (Dasa) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2802718 from COM]

>

> Are there any laws against the sale of slaughtered animal (cow)byproducts as

> fundraisers for Iskcon projects? I am referring to the ghee business at New

> Vrindavana. I don't know of any other project which gets funding from such

> distasteful activities.

 

So Vyapaka, if you were in charge and could do anything you wanted to do,

what

would you do in this specific situation? Please explain your reasoning, from

the

perspective of how would it benefit the cows, or other perspectives that are

important to you.

[Guest guest]

> Regarding the movement of downed cows. There are different ways that can

> be used. One will have to consider time place and circumstance. But what

> we have found to be very useful in most all cases is a low stone boat-sled

> where the cow can be rolled over onto the sled and then the sled is pulled

> into the area where she will be taken care of. The sling can be very hard

> to put onto a downed cow as she will have to be turned and moved quite a

> bit to fit the sling properly. And then she will have to be picked up,

> either transported in the air or put on a wagon or truck. Also in the

> front end of the loader, if the terrain is rough, or the driver is going

> too fast, the cow will get all the bumps of the road. We have found that

> with the sled method, the cow just needs to be rolled onto the sled, and

> the sled pulled. There is no bumping and jarring as the sled glides over

> the terrain. The devotee can sit on the sled with the cow, comforting her

> during the journey. We have used this method many times, and everyone

> involved was very satisfied.

 

This is an excellent tip, and it makes so much sense. Can you elucidate a

bit more on how such a sled is made? Which are the best materials? I was

considering making one for clearing the stones on our land, now there is

even more impetus, as it would always serve excellently for moving a sick

animal, it sounds like a very valuable tool for any homestead/farm.

 

How about a diagram or even better a photograph from a few angles, so we can

get a better idea of how they are made?

 

Thanks Prabhu.

 

Your Servant

Samba das