Guest guest Posted November 16, 1999 Report Share Posted November 16, 1999 "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2783852 from COM] > > At 8:47 -0800 11/16/99, Sita devi dasi wrote: > > > >What was I getting at? We need to engage males properly. On the human > >level, there are not enough grhastha men in management....... > > Finally something we agree on. I'd also add women and youth to that list. > It's time for management to become more representative of the membership, > which will lead to a greater understanding of the issues faced by our > grhastas. > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi Everyone wants to get the sannyasis out of management -- even Prabhupada wanted to get them out of management -- even, and especially, they themselves want to get out of management. But I do see one problem. It appears to me that ISKCON does not really have any form of revenue. Am I wrong about this? Maybe I am, I'd like to hear more about this. But since ISKCON proper has no form of revenue, other than a portion of the BBT funds, then the defacto requirement is that the only people who can take the office are those who are self-funded. That means -- from the financial perspective -- the ideal candidate is a sanyasi guru with lots of disciples, because those disciples through their donations can support his travel. Again -- am I wrong about this? But if we have grhasta managers where will they get the travel funds to fulfill their obligations? Does ISKCON need to institute some sort of sliding-scale annual dues to subsidize the annual expenditures of its officers, and thus make it possible for talented grhastas to step into management? Hmmmmm...... I guess I can already hear the roars of objection and protest. Well, anyway, how will it be possible financially for grhastas to step into management? your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Hare Krishna, Your analysis of who has enough disposable income to be free to take on management is quite correct. When I headed the ISKCON Board of Education, I had to take on three other paying services in order to survive. I was the manager of the International BBT, an officer of the North American BBT, and the head of the effort dealing with the Robin George case -- a little money here, a little money there. Not only did I need money to maintain myself, but I used a large portion of the money to help finance the Board of Education! Additionally, my wife was working full-time. This issue has been argued back and forth many times, but a practical solution has never been found. Grihasthas with independent income, have often been resented (and sometimes vilified). What to do? My personal opinion has long been that we will not solve this problem until a very large number of Grahasthas reach retirement age and take vanaprastha. They will be mature, experienced, more or less finished with family life, and hopefully, able to take care of themselves financially. Vanaprathas will be the perfect temple managers, gurukula teachers, and project leaders. I have confidence in this theory because it is based on solid social principals and is in keeping with the varnashrama model. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se], or [srirama (AT) reachme (DOT) net] [http://www.web-construct.net/creditcard.html] Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se] Tuesday, November 16, 1999 2:33 PM COM: Cow (Protection and related issues); COM: Varnasrama development New Funding sources for GBC Officers [Text 2784499 from COM] "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2783852 from COM] > > At 8:47 -0800 11/16/99, Sita devi dasi wrote: > > > >What was I getting at? We need to engage males properly. On the human > >level, there are not enough grhastha men in management....... > > Finally something we agree on. I'd also add women and youth to that list. > It's time for management to become more representative of the membership, > which will lead to a greater understanding of the issues faced by our > grhastas. > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi Everyone wants to get the sannyasis out of management -- even Prabhupada wanted to get them out of management -- even, and especially, they themselves want to get out of management. But I do see one problem. It appears to me that ISKCON does not really have any form of revenue. Am I wrong about this? Maybe I am, I'd like to hear more about this. But since ISKCON proper has no form of revenue, other than a portion of the BBT funds, then the defacto requirement is that the only people who can take the office are those who are self-funded. That means -- from the financial perspective -- the ideal candidate is a sanyasi guru with lots of disciples, because those disciples through their donations can support his travel. Again -- am I wrong about this? But if we have grhasta managers where will they get the travel funds to fulfill their obligations? Does ISKCON need to institute some sort of sliding-scale annual dues to subsidize the annual expenditures of its officers, and thus make it possible for talented grhastas to step into management? Hmmmmm...... I guess I can already hear the roars of objection and protest. Well, anyway, how will it be possible financially for grhastas to step into management? your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Sriram prabhu wrote: >> My personal opinion has long been that we will not solve this problem until a very large number of Grahasthas reach retirement age and take vanaprastha. They will be mature, experienced, more or less finished with family life, and hopefully, able to take care of themselves financially. Vanaprathas will be the perfect temple managers, gurukula teachers, and project leaders.>> Well, but will that be perfect for *them*? It was my understanding that Vanaprastha is supposed to be a time for reducing material attachment, going on pilgrimages etc (with one's spouse). Should that really be a time for management, with all the headaches that entails? I don't have a solution to this dilemma either. Seems like there are costs associated with every proposal. However, other religions seem to have figured out ways in which the congregations or members can support their preachers and managers, so why not ISKCON? Of course that would necessitate treating them *well*, not as people too spiritually bankrupt to commit to a life as a full time devotee. Anotehr thought is that several cities pay their elected officials very symbolic sums for their work and they all have to take other jobs to support themselves and their families. Maybe if management wasn't thought of as a lifetime profession it would be easier for people to volunteer for a few years, share resposibilities and do it part time only. Or maybe their "zones" should be smaller, so less travel is needed. Other thoughts? Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 > > My personal opinion has long been that we will not solve this problem > until a very large number of Grahasthas reach retirement age and take > vanaprastha. They will be mature, experienced, more or less finished with > family life, and hopefully, able to take care of themselves financially. > Vanaprathas will be the perfect temple managers, gurukula teachers, and > project leaders. And have the life experience to do it. As Carl Jung said (more or less) , some problems are unsolvable, we just outgrow them. I have often made this point myself, that we are missing an entire generation of elders that can mentor the younger members of society. In some Native American cultures, you aren't even considered an adult until you are 50 years old. They see 4 stages of life - youth, 2 productive stages, then adult hood. The adults actually raise the children. That production of children happens in the healthest, productive stage of life, is biologically expedient, but most of the raising of the children is done by the elders, the grandparents ( and not necessarily the biological grandparents). The wisest raising the youngest, while the strongest concentrate on production. As ISKOCN devotees had to leave their meat choked society to make the leap to devotee life, the worst thing was the loss of connection to the elders. Srila Prabhupada was a wonderful elder, and able to do so much, but he was only one man. He ws able to pass the seed of devotional service, write the book on gardening, but he couldn't be personally present for every devotee. That is where the aging devotees have a great void to fill, being the hands on mentors to the younger devotees, being the elders that care for the children and instruct them while the parents focus on their service. The gurukula failed because the devotees thrust into those positions lacked the village network of support to make it successful, lacked the sheer numbers needed to make it a personal gurukula, an uplifting and happy experience for the children. A quick pass through the Vedabase produced no quotes, but it was commonly circulated at one time that it would be the 3rd generation in ISKCON that actually became real devotees, or something to that effect. When the 2nd generation has their lifetime of experiences and the 1st generation is there to support them and give the benefit of their experience and mistakes, then the 3rd generation actually has a chance. We need to somehow build that village system in the modern world. Obsession with our own advancement is simply material desire. Dharma artha kama mukta. Desire for liberation is material. While it takes no rocket scientiest to criticize the GBC and ISKCON leadership, we also need to appreciate that these devotees were thrust into positions of authority way ahead of their demographical curve. Many of the GBC were still in their 20s when Srila Prabhupada left the planet. When we start to see society through Srila Prabhupada's eyes, the eyes of an experienced man having run the course of material world, the eyes of experience based on a lifetime of awareness of Krsna, we can actually start to move the movement forward. A succesful man was once asked, what was the secret of his success. "Good decisions" "How do you make good decisions?" "Experience." "How do you get experience?" "Bad decisions." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA) wrote: > [Text 2785217 from COM] > > > Anotehr thought is that several cities pay their elected officials very > symbolic sums for their work and they all have to take other jobs to support > themselves and their families. Maybe if management wasn't thought of as a > lifetime profession it would be easier for people to volunteer for a few > years, share resposibilities and do it part time only. Or maybe their "zones" > should be smaller, so less travel is needed. > > Other thoughts? > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi Other thoughts? -- I'd just like to make the point: You get what you pay for. If we pay for a bargain-basement manager who is not subjected to periodic evaluation, who is not well trained, and who is not paid enough to devote full attention to caring for his "praja" -- then why are we surprised that we find less-than-ideal candidates for the position. Part of transitional varnasrama means valuing and training devotees for a range of occupational duties -- not that being a brahmana is the only spiritually legitimate post. Much of our turmoil comes from putting brahmanas in managerial positions. They do not have the temperament necessary to follow through and straighten out the situation when some kind of abuse appears. The result is that the abuse spreads and weakens our society. We need to be willing to make a commitment to train and support good material leadership. We will not get it for free. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 > Of course that would necessitate treating them > *well*, not as people too spiritually bankrupt to commit to a life as a full > time devotee. We need to see through Srila Prabupada's eyes. He said a college in every temple. I don't believe this means setting up necessarily some formal educational institution in every temple, but one of the first sea changes in mentality the leaders will need to swallow is the reality that most devotees will come, live in the temples for some time, and then move on. A simple statistical study of devotees ten years after first moving into the temple will confirm this. Recognizing this reality, the next step is to start treating the devotees like alumni, instead of like "blooped". A simple study of any successful educational institution and how they deal with alumni will yield very useful methods and information. Now it seems we train devotees to be brahmacaris and treat householders as those who failed the course. We need to start teaching bhaktas and bhaktins how to become successful householders, so as they inevitably move on, they will be grateful and want to share in their success, and when they reach retirement age, be eager to move into positions of greater responsibility to the movement. We need to encourage a productive class that will fund the endowments for our cow protection and education efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 > I have often made this point myself, that we are missing an entire > generation of elders that can mentor the younger members of society. In > some Native American cultures, you aren't even considered an adult until > you are 50 years old. They see 4 stages of life - youth, 2 productive > stages, then adult hood. In India it is also like this. You often read reports in the newspapers wherein it will be mentioned something like, 'Prakash, a 35 year old youth from Mathura'. I had one farm manager of about 27 years old in the south who would not do anything out of the ordinary without his mothers permission. YS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 1999 Report Share Posted November 25, 1999 On 16 Nov 1999, Srirama das wrote: > My personal opinion has long been that we will not solve this problem > until a very large number of Grahasthas reach retirement age and take > vanaprastha. They will be mature, experienced, more or less finished with > family life, and hopefully, able to take care of themselves financially. I apologize for joining this thread so late; I have tended to avoid this conference becuase of its (more than) occasional contentiousness. I like Srirama's suggestion to a dgree. There may be many retiring grihasthas who would be both happy to help manage ISKCON's projects and be able to support themselves. Some, however, may not be so eager to take up management responsibilities at that stage of life, or may feel that's the wrong engagement. Others may have problems due to lack of financial planning and may not have means to support themselves even in a simple lifestyle on retirement income; they may also (and who could object too strenuously?) be unwilling to become dependent on handouts from higher-level managers or on the vagaries of ISKCON financial management, considering our track record. We may find it easy to accuse these devotees of a lack of faith in Krishna, but that sounds just too facile to some of us. Your servant, Babhru das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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