Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 On 17 Dec 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > > Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON he > did > > > not have one single *granddisciple*. > > > > > > Does that eliminate you? > > > > If only I *could* be eliminated! > > (Krsna consiousness as explained using soccer) There is no I in TEAM. If we > can't function as a team, the real opponent (Mayadevi ) will win. > > Gosh, as coach giving half time pep talk. > OK, coach, I mean if only *we* could be eliminated! .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 Guru-Krsna Prabhu writes: > > Point is that in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing > > ISKCON he never saw fit to appoint a woman as GBC or tp. Aren't we > > supposed to learn by the combined instructions and *example* set by the > > founder-acarya? Jnaesvara Prabhu wrote: > Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON he > did not have one single *granddisciple*. > > Does that eliminate you? I am not very keenly interested in the discussion going on. But the above statement does not sound like good logic. When Prabhupada was physically present there were women around but there were no granddisciples around. Where is the question of his giving or not giving a leadership position to his granddisciples in his developing ISKCON? According to Srila Prabhupada it is the general etiquette that disciples of a guru don't their own accept disciples in the physical presence of their guru. Where is the question of granddisciple being present or not present at Prabhupada's time? Your servant, Nayana-ranjana das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 I am sorry you missed the point. If you are interested I comment below. > Guru-Krsna Prabhu writes: > > > > Point is that in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his > > > developing ISKCON he never saw fit to appoint a woman as GBC or tp. > > > Aren't we supposed to learn by the combined instructions and *example* > > > set by the founder-acarya? > > Jnaesvara Prabhu wrote: > > > Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON he > > did not have one single *granddisciple*. > > > > Does that eliminate you? > > I am not very keenly interested in the discussion going on. But the above > statement does not sound like good logic. When Prabhupada was physically > present there were women around but there were no granddisciples around. > Where is the question of his giving or not giving a leadership position to > his granddisciples in his developing ISKCON? That was not the point. The point was that there were women around when Srila Prabhupada was developing ISKCON but the general situation was that there were not women in leadership positions. He stated they could be in leadership positions but that was not carried out by his disciples for some reason, prejudice being the likely reason. If devotees had come to Prabhupada and said, "Oh, Prabhupada this Mother ???devi dasi is such a surrendered soul, we would like to recommend her to give class and lead an asrama", it would be obvious that Prabhupada would agree. Prabhupada also ordered his "leaders", 99% males, to start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of his movement, but not one was started. Is that to say that Prabhupada didn't start the colleges or that he was hoping his disciples would take up these tasks and free him to translate more books? > According to Srila Prabhupada > it is the general etiquette that disciples of a guru don't their own > accept disciples in the physical presence of their guru. Where is the > question of granddisciple being present or not present at Prabhupada's > time? The point being that after Prabhupada is gone we can take up those things he would have wanted to be seen accomplished as our own duty to him who gave us everything valuable in life. The referenced devotee seems to imply that because no women were put in certain positions during Prabhupadas presence that that somehow becomes the standard forever now that he is gone. That would also mean that there is never to be varnasrama colleges started. That is incorrect logic, or illogical. Devotees like the referenced use this same "ill logic" for many things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 On 18 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote: > The referenced devotee seems to imply that because no women were put in > certain positions during Prabhupadas presence that that somehow becomes the > standard forever now that he is gone. That's correct. Although there may be exceptions to the rule, the standard is that women don't assume leadership positions in society. That was also the standard for eons before Srila Prabhupada's appearance, wasn't it? In other words, women are not the natural leaders of a society--and I learned that from Srila Prabhupada. Just do a Folio search if you don't believe it. That would also mean that there is > never to be varnasrama colleges started. Not quite the same, prabhu. Srila Prabhupada instructed his disciples to establish VAC, whereas he did not instruct his disciples to "place women in 50% of all ISKCON leadership positions." Or did he? That is incorrect logic, or > illogical. Devotees lik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 > [Text 2866672 from COM] > > Guru-Krsna Prabhu writes: > > > > Point is that in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing > > > ISKCON he never saw fit to appoint a woman as GBC or tp. Aren't we > > > supposed to learn by the combined instructions and *example* set by the > > > founder-acarya? > > Jnaesvara Prabhu wrote: > > > Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON he > > did not have one single *granddisciple*. > > > > Does that eliminate you? > IT is very sad to see how Senior aren't acting as Acaryas, and lack of vaisnava etiquette, instead of lovely instructing us Junior just speaking in a desafiating mood, frustrating lots of nice devotees, loosing their time writing nonsense. Please Vaisnavas, I humbly request from you all to use these conferences in a Krsna Katha mood, with the wish to improve our Krsna Conciousness, and with a cooperation mood as Srila Prabhupada request to us before leaving this material world, with a brotherhood relationship, if not we won't please HDG SP, and won't receive his blessings. First think a lot, then re-read the texts before sending them, is horrible to read so many text in an offensive mood, and also make us loose precious time. your servant, Sridhari dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 In text 2868133 from COM, Janesvara dasa wrote: > there were not women in leadership positions. He stated they could be in > leadership positions but that was not carried out by his disciples for some > reason, prejudice being the likely reason. If devotees had come to Even against householder men there was plenty of prejudice. You can just imagine the potential for prejudice against women. Sure, there were smiles, "compasion," counseling and other acts towards them to prove the "respect" and "concern" for women in the Movement, but in fact they didn't get much more than what women in second-rate Arab countries get. But then the gurukulis didn't fare that well either. It will continue to be a struggle to put things in the proper perspective. YS RK Mex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 > On 18 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote: > > > The referenced devotee seems to imply that because no women were put in > > certain positions during Prabhupadas presence that that somehow becomes > > the standard forever now that he is gone. > > That's correct. Although there may be exceptions to the rule, the standard > is that women don't assume leadership positions in society. That was also > the standard for eons before Srila Prabhupada's appearance, wasn't it? Now you are changing things immensely as far as I am concerned. The SOCIETY, and in Prabhupada's movement I think are somewhat different as regards *management* positions. The exceptions would be in the case of devotees, if anyone, don't you think? Especially in Prabhupada's preaching movement. You are saying what Srila Prabhupada did within his own movement before he left is as it should be in world society. I disagree. Within the movement certainly there are positions of leadership and management which women are capable of pursuing and fulfilling to the best of their ability. They are PREACHING and this transcends all dogma. It simply has to be accepted. I would offer my sincere respects and obeisances to any qualified and sincere devotee Mother and I have done so many times as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. They are not their bodies and in certain circumstances they must be trusted with positions of assisting Srila Prabhupada in his mission. This does not translate to a general social deviation of varnasrama-dharma and Vedic cultural standards, in my opinion. Separation of the sexes is something we must respect and learn to assimilate logically and practically without prejudice and bias. I would love to have women around me all the time but it just ain't good for my spiritual advancement as much as I hate to admit it. It is a law of material nature and I think the ladies of this bhakti movement can understand this and help us fallen males to cope with the situation. Prabhupada did pretty well with this. He had many close disciple relationships with senior women. I remember well his treatment of a friend of me and my first wife, Silavati devi. He treated her like incredible. It was awesome and taught me a lot about how to respect women. Then one brahmacari spit in the face of Silavati in the NY temple and things got pretty bad. I tried to track the coward down to mete out some apt punishment but he left the temple. My feelings for general human devotee social management on a regular life scale, not in an asrama or temple situation, but say in a varnasrama community, is that there are really plenty of men to fill the varna roles if properly trained but THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE MAN who can fill the most important roles of daughter, wife and mother. This will be an eternal principle of this material world. And I thank Krsna for it because I think it works fantastic when applied with devotional service and hearts dedicated to Krsna, even not so pure hearts. We NEED great mothers and daughters and wives. This is where great men come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1999 Report Share Posted December 18, 1999 > > > Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON > he > > > did not have one single *granddisciple*. > > > > > > Does that eliminate you? > > > IT is very sad to see how Senior aren't acting as Acaryas, and lack of > vaisnava etiquette, instead of lovely instructing us Junior just speaking > in a desafiating mood, frustrating lots of nice devotees, loosing their > time writing nonsense. I am sorry Mataji, but you do not seem to understand that I definitely was implying that the answer to my aforestated question was NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 1999 Report Share Posted December 19, 1999 > On 18 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote: > > > The referenced devotee seems to imply that because no women were put in > > certain positions during Prabhupadas presence that that somehow becomes > > the standard forever now that he is gone. > > That's correct. Although there may be exceptions to the rule, the standard > is that women don't assume leadership positions in society. That was also > the standard for eons before Srila Prabhupada's appearance, wasn't it? Now you are changing things immensely as far as I am concerned. The SOCIETY, and in Prabhupada's movement I think are somewhat different as regards *management* positions. The exceptions would be in the case of devotees, if anyone, don't you think? Especially in Prabhupada's preaching movement. Yes, prabhu, I agree that the exceptions would be in the case of devotees, if anyone. So maybe here or there in the history of ISKCON there will be some prominent Vaisnavi leaders. But I don't agree that nowadays ISKCON is such a transcendentally pure society so as to warrant contravening Vedic social principles and norms with regard to Vaisnavis. The same logic was used in the past to justify lesser gurus behaving as if mahabhagavatas, to ignore the need for varnasrama-dharma in the name of transcendence, to justify illegal activities in the name of preaching, etc. >You are saying what Srila Prabhupada did within his own movement before he left is >as it should be in world society. I disagree. Within the movement certainly there >are positions of leadership and management which women are capable of pursuing and >fulfilling to the best of their ability. They are PREACHING and this transcends all >dogma. It simply has to be accepted. I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste, shy, homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why? >I would offer my sincere respects and obeisances to any qualified and sincere >devotee Mother and I have done so many times as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. They >are not their bodies and in certain circumstances they must be trusted with >positions of assisting Srila Prabhupada in his mission. I fully agree with that, for sure. But it seems that we have a different vision as to how women will *best* assist the sankirtana mission. >My feelings for general human devotee social management on a regular life scale, not >in an asrama or temple situation, but say in a varnasrama community, is that there >are really plenty of men to fill the varna roles if properly trained but THERE IS >NOT ONE SINGLE MAN who can fill the most important roles of daughter, wife and >mother. This will be an eternal principle of this material world. I mostly agree here, also, prabhu, but I don't consider ISKCON temples/asramas to be an exception to the rule. And please consider why: You advocate on behalf of Srila Prabhupada--do you not?--that *every* ISKCON center should be a varnasrama college. So how would ISKCON centers properly serve their function as vc's if placing women into managerial (ksatriya) roles? The lesson learned by the students would be that *either* man or woman can be an adminstrator--wouldn't it be so? But Srila Prabhupada has already said that women would not be admitted into the vc's. Seems like an important point to consider. >And I thank Krsna for it because I think it works fantastic when applied with >devotional service and hearts dedicated to Krsna, even not so pure hearts. >We NEED great mothers and daughters and wives. This is where great men come from. Actually, prabhu--not to be overly sentimental here on a public forum but just for the record--I also *do* love and appreciate dearly my mother, my aunts, my 2 younger sisters, my departed grandmothers, and most especially my (only child) Vaisnavi 14-year-old daughter! Prakrti ki jaya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 1999 Report Share Posted December 19, 1999 > I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of > preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you > suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial > roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste, > shy, homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why? I want to see the damn men that are supposed to be practicing their dharma fulfill their varna duties as brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. But if they do not due to weakness of heart, then I will support any women who has more courage than these weak men. > You advocate on behalf of Srila Prabhupada--do you not?--that *every* > ISKCON center should be a varnasrama college. No. There should be a VC IN every center. Not that every center IS a VC. > So how would ISKCON centers > properly serve their function as vc's if placing women into managerial > (ksatriya) roles? Women are not ksatriyas but they can manage certain situations. I have worked for many very qualified women who were professional, righteous, and effective managers. That does not make them ksatriyas. They are still mothers, daughters and/or wives doing the needful. If they are chanting Hare Krsna, they are perfecting their lives better than any man who claims to be a big leader or guru but who does not perform his natural varna truthfully. > The lesson learned by the students would be that > *either* man or woman can be an adminstrator--wouldn't it be so? No. Ksatriyas have no problem creating the natural order of things. That is leadership. Everyone will able to distinguish the true ksatriya leader. > But Srila > Prabhupada has already said that women would not be admitted into the > vc's. Seems like an important point to consider. No. He said those who are not willing to be educated. There is training even for sudras what to speak of mothers, daughters and wives. If you do not want to call it varnasrama college where women will be trained, so be it. These details can be worked out to the mutual satisfaction of everyone. Everyone must be concerned for everyone elses training in an unbiased manner. > >And I thank Krsna for it because I think it works fantastic when applied > with >devotional service and hearts dedicated to Krsna, even not so pure > hearts. > >We NEED great mothers and daughters and wives. This is where great men > >come > from. > > Actually, prabhu--not to be overly sentimental here on a public forum but > just for the record--I also *do* love and appreciate dearly my mother, my > aunts, my 2 younger sisters, my departed grandmothers, and most especially > my (only child) Vaisnavi 14-year-old daughter! > Its nice to hear. You should engage your tongue more in this manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 1999 Report Share Posted December 19, 1999 > > I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of > preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you > suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial > roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste, > shy, homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why? Oh, I am going out and practicing prostituitini asrama by distributing SP books. Why? Because that's what Srila Prabhupada wanted and it gives me the highest bliss. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 1999 Report Share Posted December 19, 1999 On 19 Dec 1999, Sraddha dd wrote: > > > > I grant that they are indeed preaching. But there are various levels of > > preaching, just as there are various levels of devotion, right? Are you > > suggesting that such women are preaching *moreso* by assuming managerial > > roles than if they were to preach by word and example how to be chaste, > > shy, homely servants of their children and husbands, etc.? And if so, why? > > Oh, I am going out and practicing prostituitini asrama by distributing SP > books. Why? > Because that's what Srila Prabhupada wanted and it gives me the highest > bliss. > Ys. Sraddha dd Yes, because it is the instruction of the perfect spiritual master it brings bliss to the heart. And all of those other instructions for women are also given by the very same perfect spiritual master. Hare Krsna. --gkd .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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