GHQ want women acaryas

[Guest guest]

>

> Women are thought to need to conform to old style Vedic conceptions,

> yet no one thinks twice when a sannyasi doen't live in the forest, wears

> factory produced cloth instead of bark or deerskin, and passes his

> stools into water. I am not saying this to diminish what the sannyasis are

> doing, they probably should and need to be doing these things. But if

> the "spiritual masters of the society" are showing the example of not

> strictly following Vedic details from the Manu Samhita, asking the women

> to "get up on the roof tops" is simply hypocrisy. Why should the women

> be strict followers, when the "spiritual masters of the society" are

> exempted. If the women were stricter followers, then, by their

> example, by definition, they would supersede the sannyasis as the

> acaryas, (acarya = those who teach by example). Is that really what the

> GHQ is trying to promote? They want woman as their acaryas?

 

It is always impresive for me to read your comments. You know the art of

explaining things in such a way so that everyone can see imidiatly, what is

what.

My obeisances to a real sadhu like you.

 

ys, Harsi das

[Guest guest]

[Text 2825575 from COM]

 

"COM: Mahakratu (das) ACBSP" wrote:

 

> [Text 2825393 from COM]

 

 

<Women are thought to need to conform to old style Vedic conceptions,

yet no

<one thinks twice when a sannyasi doen't live in the forest, wears factory

<produced cloth instead of bark or deerskin, and passes his stools into

water.

<I am not saying this to diminish what the sannyasis are doing, they

probably

<should and need to be doing these things.

 

Dear Madhava Gosh prabhu:

please accept my humble obeisances. all the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Kindly let me make a comment of your comments. First, Sannyasi in ISKCON

aren't living in the forest because they are following Srila Prabhupada's

example, and following Srila Prabhupada's instructions of preaching...

travellings, and managing if it is need.

 

< But if the "spiritual masters of the

<society" are showing the example of not strictly following Vedic details

from

<the Manu Samhita, asking the women to "get up on the roof tops" is

simply

<hypocrisy.

 

I don't think that some devotees are asking to women to 'get up on the roof

tops', but you should agree that certain group of women are just looking

for some 'power & influence'. I agree with you that the kitchen isn't the

only place for a women, but a women in a leading position is dangerous. I

am speaking and I am also in a women body, Srila Prabhupada clearly advise

ALL of us that a women SHOULD be always protected, and she can lead if she

is helping to his husband in a leading position. There are lots of service

that women can do without being closed in the kitchen and far away of being

Guru or GBC or TP. And of course it will also depend on the place where the

women are residing.

 

<Why should the women be strict followers, when the "spiritual

<masters of the society" are exempted. If the women were stricter

followers,

<then, by their example, by definition, they would supersede the

sannyasis

<as

<the acaryas, (acarya = those who teach by example). Is that really what

the

<GHQ is trying to promote? They want woman as their acaryas?

 

For my understanding GHQ is promoting following ALL Srila Prabhupada's

teachings, including men and women. What is wrong to expect good behaviour

from women? What is wrong to expect good behaviour from our leaders? What

is wrong to expect good behaviour from men?

 

your servant, Sridhari devi dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> It is always impresive for me to read your comments. You no the art of

> explaining things in such a way so that everyone can see imidiatly, what is

> what.

> My obeisances to a real sadhu like you.

>

> ys, Harsi das

 

If I was a real sadhu, I would make some comment that any thing I say that

reveals truth is simply by the mercy of Krsna, but as the materialist that I

am, when I hear flattery, I immediately become suspicious and wonder what

does

this guy want from me that he is buttering me up? Ergo, I doubt very much my

sadhu status.

[Guest guest]

> If I was a real sadhu, I would make some comment that any thing I say

> that reveals truth is simply by the mercy of Krsna, but as the

> materialist that I am, when I hear flattery, I immediately become

> suspicious and wonder what does this guy want from me that he is buttering

> me up? Ergo, I doubt very much my sadhu status.

 

Well, you were not Gosh if you would not have reacted in this way.

Sometimes also a materialist can reveal truth spoken by a real sadhu isn,t

it, providet he is conscious about Krsna?

However I meant it honestly.

[Guest guest]

> Srila Prabhupada clearly advise ALL of us that a women SHOULD be always >

protected,

 

> your servant, Sridhari devi dasi

 

What you really want to say is "controled", protected is an euphemism.

There a difference between imitating the spiritual master and following his

instructions? A camel swallowed a watermelon and it got stuck in the throat.

An apprentice, following the example of the doctor, his master, broke it

with a hammer...

[Guest guest]

> For my understanding GHQ is promoting following ALL Srila Prabhupada's

> teachings, including men and women. What is wrong to expect good behaviour

> from women? What is wrong to expect good behaviour from our leaders? What

> is wrong to expect good behaviour from men?

 

The question is who is deciding what is good and what is bad?

 

There is a big difference in what is considered good and what is

considered bad in different cultures. For example, beating might be a normal

way of disciplinig people in India, but here in Sweden if you hit a child,

you might end up in a jail, even if you are a parent.

When we try to artificially introduce some kind of "vedic" role model we

end up with kind of Vrindavan case of men and women fighting in front of the

altar. There is nothing vedic about men standing in front and women behind,

there is nothing vedic about brahmacaris and women living together in the

same temple, there is nothing vedic about ISKCON. Those kind of things

didn't exist in the vedic times. There is nothing indian about men standing

in front and women standing behind, there is nothing indian about

brahmacaris and women living together in the same temple, there is nothing

indian about brahmacaris and women fighting in front of the altar. Such

things don't exist in India, except in ISKCON.

Indian way (as far as I have seen in Mayapur) is that pilgrim families

come together and if it is a crowd, it's the women who are pushing forward

to get near the altar and the men are following behind. The biger the crowd,

the harder they push, and you better move fast if you don't want to be

squashed.

 

So, I wonder what are we trying to introduce?

[Guest guest]

Sridhari dd. wrote:

 

> I agree with you that the kitchen isn't the only place for a women, but a

> women in a leading position is dangerous. I am speaking and I am also in a

> women body,

 

Why should a woman in a leading position be dangerous? Dangerous for whom

and what? Maybe you know something what I don,t know since I am a man...

 

ys,

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

Sraddha dd. wrote on 4.12.99

 

> When we try to artificially introduce some kind of "vedic" role model we

> end up with kind of Vrindavan case of men and women fighting in front of

> the altar. There is nothing vedic about men standing in front and women

> behind, there is nothing vedic about brahmacaris and women living together

> in the same temple, there is nothing vedic about ISKCON. Those kind of

> things didn't exist in the vedic times. There is nothing indian about men

> standing in front and women standing behind, there is nothing indian about

> brahmacaris and women living together in the same temple, there is nothing

> indian about brahmacaris and women fighting in front of the altar. Such

> things don't exist in India, except in ISKCON.

 

Sometimes I really ask myself if Prabhupada wanted to introduce the culture

of renunciation of material things why he didn,t start monasterys and many

temples in India where real brahmacaris and sanyasis are residing are a kind

of monasteries, where those who wanted to follow this path could do it

without mixing with the oposite sex. The way he chose to organise things in

ISKCON are more a kind of mixing two cultures to fit the needs of the

individuels, indeed nothing vedic, or like Abhirama prabhu whould say

"having a vedic perspective." But what is vedic anyway, the other day I was

reading for example that the culture of the woman wearing saris was

introduced by the muslims in India, so another conception of something being

vedic gone.

 

Ys,

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

>

>

> So, I wonder what are we trying to introduce?

 

Srila Prabhupada constantly exhorted/exhorts the world and us to take shelter

of Bhagavad-gita, and we of ISKCON want and are obligated to express the flavor

and tenor of Bhagavad-gita/Vedic knowledge/Vedic culture, as best as we can

"pick up" his mood, as expressed in his writings, etc.

SO many Indologist+scholars there are. Over 600 translations of the Gita

exist. Although open to some discussion, one thing we should focus upon, as

followers of Lord Chaitanya, Srila Bhaktivinoda, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and

most

importantly, our Founder Acarya Srila Prabhupada, is their mood. WE are to

follow THEIR mood. Else we can start our own spiritual group.

Naturally we will discuss exact details for applying Srila Prabhupada's

expression of Vedic/Vedic culture, but we must be very chaste to him/his mood

of

"Vedic, such that we can grasp it, without bringing in "indologists" and

scholars to tell us what vedic is, or "shooting from the hip" ourselves without

having very thoroughly readthrough his writings a few times, like some of us

have......such deep study provides a comprehensive basis for discussion.

 

yours in service,

Dina Sharana d.

[Guest guest]

> Naturally we will discuss exact details for applying Srila Prabhupada's

> expression of Vedic/Vedic culture, but we must be very chaste to him/his

> mood of "Vedic, such that we can grasp it, without bringing in

> "indologists" and scholars to tell us what vedic is, or "shooting from the

> hip" ourselves without having very thoroughly readthrough his writings a

> few times, like some of us have......such deep study provides a

> comprehensive basis for discussion.

 

No problem. My main service for the last 14 years was reading

(proofreading) Srila Prabhupadas books, so I do know something about SP

books. I am open for a discussion.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> > So, I wonder what are we trying to introduce?

 

> Srila Prabhupada constantly exhorted/exhorts the world and us to take

> shelter of Bhagavad-gita, and we of ISKCON want and are obligated to

> express the flavor and tenor of Bhagavad-gita/Vedic knowledge/Vedic

> culture, as best as we can "pick up" his mood, as expressed in his

> writings, etc.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

"...the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation,

or sanatana-dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity."

Bg Intro

 

And further Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

"In other words, the system of varnasrama-dharma is known also as

sanatana-dharma, or eternal occupation." S.B. 1.19.4.

 

And:

 

"The institution which gives such training is called varnasrama-dharma, or

the system of sanatana-dharma, the best procedure for making the human life

perfect." S.B. 2.1.15.

 

And further still:

 

"The Vedas describe how to divide the human race into four divisions

according to quality and working capacity. This is very scientific system,

and it is also sanatana, for no one can trace out its history, and it has no

dissolution. No one can stop the system of varna and asrama, or the castes

and divisions. ...This system is sanatana, it comes from time immemorial and

it will continue in the same way. There is no power in the world which can

stop it. Therefore since this sanatana-dharma system is eternal, one can

elevate himself to the highest standard of spiritual life by following the

Vedic principles." SB 4.2.31

 

 

So if "we of ISKCON want and are obligated to express the flavor and tenor

of Bhagavad-gita/Vedic knowledge/Vedic culture, as best as we can "pick up"

his mood, as expressed in his writings, etc." how is it that ISKCON's

leaders for the past 25 years have failed to even show a glimpse of interest

in implementing varnasrama-dharma/sanatana-dharma?

 

It would seem that varnasrama-dharma should be a priority agenda especially

when Srila Prabhupada said, just before leaving this planet, that the ONLY

thing he lamented was not starting varnasrama-dharma in his movement and

that he had completed HALF of his mission and that the other half of his

mission was to start varnasrama-dharma.

 

Why haven't the so-called leaders done anything to actively pursue the

fulfillment of this mission of their guru and instead spent untold millions

of dollars and hours on promoting themselves as "leaders"? Leaders going

WHERE? We have not even begun the simple process of implementing Srila

Prabhupada's orders to start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of his

movement.

 

We have failed miserably for more than 25 years and until we move actively

toward implementation of varnasrama-dharma, dividing the society of devotees

into the four varnas and asramas according to nature and work, without any

pretentiousness, the misery will only increase daily.

 

Any person calling himself a leader who does not promote varnasrama-dharma

daily is a cheater plain and simple and should be abandoned by any

intelligent human being.

[Guest guest]

> Any person calling himself a leader who does not promote varnasrama-dharma

> daily is a cheater plain and simple and should be abandoned by any

> intelligent human being.

 

The prerogative: any person *calling* himself a leader softens up your

statement. I don´t think we have many of them:)

[Guest guest]

----------

> De: COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) <Sraddha.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

> A: COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) <DMW (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: India

(Continental Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama

development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Mahakratu (das) ACBSP

<Mahakratu.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

> Asunto: RE: GHQ want women acaryas

> Fecha: Sábado 4 de Diciembre de 1999 00:00

>

> [Text 2829518 from COM]

>

> > For my understanding GHQ is promoting following ALL Srila Prabhupada's

> > teachings, including men and women. What is wrong to expect good

behaviour

> > from women? What is wrong to expect good behaviour from our leaders?

What

> > is wrong to expect good behaviour from men?

>

> The question is who is deciding what is good and what is bad?

 

Srila Prabhupada taught us what is good and what is bad, all that is

written on his BOOKS.

>

There is nothing vedic about men standing in front and women behind,

> there is nothing vedic about brahmacaris and women living together in the

> same temple, there is nothing vedic about ISKCON. Those kind of things

> didn't exist in the vedic times. There is nothing indian about men

standing

> in front and women standing behind, there is nothing indian about

> brahmacaris and women living together in the same temple, there is

nothing

> indian about brahmacaris and women fighting in front of the altar. Such

> things don't exist in India, except in ISKCON.

 

May be some if not all those *there is nothing...* that you wrote about are

part of the reason of the destructive problems that our ill society is

facing. Srila Prabhupada spoke a lot about doing varnasrama-dharma, and

our society is lack of it.

 

> Indian way (as far as I have seen in Mayapur) is that pilgrim families

> come together and if it is a crowd,

 

There is a big big big diference between a woman with his husband and

children, and a single woman.

About what happend in Vrndaban we heard lots of version, I believe on what

TP of Krsna Balaram Mandir said, and women didn't want to wait till the

ghee lamp passed, so that is a problem of being pacient, not of darshan,

darshan in front was allow to all them...

 

> So, I wonder what are we trying to introduce?

 

I also wonder what.

 

ys, Sridhari dd

[Guest guest]

All in all I see that the western women are certainly different in attitude

to the Indian women. But so also are the men. In some situations that can be

an advantage, but not always in a Temple in India, especially in the HOly

Dhama. Some self control and reservation must be there.

 

To turn the whole affair into a fight is completely out of order and will

not achieve anything productive and will probably be counter productive to

making any advancement in KC, for all parties involved, whether male or

female.

 

ys, mkd

[Guest guest]

> All in all I see that the western women are certainly different in

> attitude to the Indian women. But so also are the men. In some situations

> that can be an advantage, but not always in a Temple in India, especially

> in the HOly Dhama. Some self control and reservation must be there.

>

> To turn the whole affair into a fight is completely out of order and will

> not achieve anything productive and will probably be counter productive to

> making any advancement in KC, for all parties involved, whether male or

> female.

>

> ys, mkd

 

Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu!!!

[Guest guest]

> For my understanding GHQ is promoting following ALL Srila Prabhupada's

> teachings, including men and women. What is wrong to expect good behaviour

> from women? What is wrong to expect good behaviour from our leaders? What

> is wrong to expect good behaviour from men?

>

> your servant, Sridhari devi dasi

 

Nicely put. Who needs bad examples. ISKCON has suffered for too long at the

hands of show bottle bluffers making out to be equal or greater than Srila

Prabhupada. Now it's a good time to reform and prepare ourselves to take up

more seriously, the mission of our Spiritual Master and Founder Acarya of

ISKCON. Become purified and help others to become pure. By always following

in the lotus footsteps of our Gurudeva.

 

ys, Mkd

[Guest guest]

> For my understanding GHQ is promoting following ALL Srila Prabhupada's

> teachings, including men and women. What is wrong to expect good behaviour

> from women? What is wrong to expect good behaviour from our leaders? What

> is wrong to expect good behaviour from men?

>

> your servant, Sridhari devi dasi

 

Nicely put. Who needs bad examples. ISKCON has suffered for too long at the

hands of show bottle bluffers making out to be equal or greater than Srila

Prabhupada. Now it's a good time to reform and prepare ourselves to take up

more seriously, the mission of our Spiritual Master and Founder Acarya of

ISKCON. Become purified and help others to become pure. By always following

in the lotus footsteps of our Gurudeva.

 

ys, Mkd