Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 At 12:50 AM +0100 12/12/99, COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) wrote: >[Text 2849993 from COM] > Here we have definition of spiritual inteligence: > > "To solve such dilemmas, Srila Rupa Gosvami has given a very clear >conception of intelligence. He says: > Visayan, material affairs, should be accepted without attachment, and >everything should be dovetailed with the service of the Lord. That is real >intelligence (manina). Becoming a family man or king in the material world >is not harmful if one accepts everything for Krishnas service." SB. 5.1.12 Intelligence, then, means to accept our prescribed duties (material affair) without attachment (or aversion) and "everything should be dovetailed with the service of the Lord." Exactly our point. A man's prescribed duties are divided according to the four occupational divisions, a woman's prescribed duty is to serve her husband. Narada Muni explains these prescribed duties of VAD to Yudhistira Maharaja in SB 7.11. This is also consistent with Prabhupada's policy of "NO women in VA Colleges" and statements such as the following: Sri Sri Rukmini Dvaraka-natha Deity Installation Los Angeles, July 16, 1969 Therefore, according to Vedic system, a boy born in a brahmana family, he is allowed all the samskaras, reformatory, purificatory process, but the girl is not. Why? Now, because a girl has to follow her husband. So if her husband is brahmana, automatically she becomes brahmana. There is no need of separate reformation. And by chance she may be married with a person who is not a brahmana, then what is the use of making her a brahmana? That is the general method. So therefore the, even born in a brahmana family, a woman is taken as woman, not as brahmana. But Krsna says, "Never mind. Even if she is woman, even she is sudra, even she is vaisya, or any other, I mean to say, family born in, never mind." Mam hi partha vyapasritya, if anyone is bona fidely made Krsna conscious, te 'pi yanti param gatim, so his way is open to the path of Vaikuntha, param gatim. Kim punar brahmanah punya It is interesting to note that Prabhupada corrects himself after inadvertently saying "even she is sudra, even she is vaisya, or any other" by reestablishing the principle tat she can never be a brahmana, vaisya, ksatriya but "I mean to say, family born in." This also shows how easily one may misunderstand the point that although a woman may be a brahmani (born in a brahmana family) she is never a brahmana by occupation. A woman born in a family of brahmanas in never a brahmana because she is never allowed the samskara that transforms a potential brahmana boy into a brahmana. Ksatriyas and vaisyas also receive this reformation. Women, no matter which family they are born into, never receive such reformation. The fact that Prabhupaa said "No" to women attending VA College also indicates that, in the future, women would not be given brahminical initiation. Why? Because only those trained as brahmanas in the VA Colleges would be given that distinction. Furthermore, aside from all the women, not every man would be given 2nd initiation. Why? Because Prabhupada wanted to start introducing the principles of VAD: Letter to: Sudama Rome 26 May, 1974 "You were present in Hawaii when I was there and was particularly stressing that the presidents must be very careful on recommending gayatri initiation. After all, we are criticizing false cast brahmanas, if we ourselves are bogus brahmanas then our position is very bad. Now that we are more and more trying to implement the varnasrama divisions of society, we should not think that everyone has to become a brahmana. For example you are developing a farm there; so those who work the farm do not necessarily have to be a brahmana if they are not inclined to the brahminical standards. In this way, be careful about awarding the second initiation." But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord. ys. JMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 At 12:50 AM +0100 12/12/99, COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) wrote: >[Text 2849993 from COM] > Here we have definition of spiritual inteligence: > > "To solve such dilemmas, Srila Rupa Gosvami has given a very clear >conception of intelligence. He says: > Visayan, material affairs, should be accepted without attachment, and >everything should be dovetailed with the service of the Lord. That is real >intelligence (manina). Becoming a family man or king in the material world >is not harmful if one accepts everything for Krishnas service." SB. 5.1.12 Intelligence, then, means to accept our prescribed duties (material affair) without attachment (or aversion) and "everything should be dovetailed with the service of the Lord." Exactly our point. A man's prescribed duties are divided according to the four occupational divisions, a woman's prescribed duty is to serve her husband. Narada Muni explains these prescribed duties of VAD to Yudhistira Maharaja in SB 7.11. This is also consistent with Prabhupada's policy of "NO women in VA Colleges" and statements such as the following: Sri Sri Rukmini Dvaraka-natha Deity Installation Los Angeles, July 16, 1969 Therefore, according to Vedic system, a boy born in a brahmana family, he is allowed all the samskaras, reformatory, purificatory process, but the girl is not. Why? Now, because a girl has to follow her husband. So if her husband is brahmana, automatically she becomes brahmana. There is no need of separate reformation. And by chance she may be married with a person who is not a brahmana, then what is the use of making her a brahmana? That is the general method. So therefore the, even born in a brahmana family, a woman is taken as woman, not as brahmana. But Krsna says, "Never mind. Even if she is woman, even she is sudra, even she is vaisya, or any other, I mean to say, family born in, never mind." Mam hi partha vyapasritya, if anyone is bona fidely made Krsna conscious, te 'pi yanti param gatim, so his way is open to the path of Vaikuntha, param gatim. Kim punar brahmanah punya It is interesting to note that Prabhupada corrects himself after inadvertently saying "even she is sudra, even she is vaisya, or any other" by reestablishing the principle tat she can never be a brahmana, vaisya, ksatriya but "I mean to say, family born in." This also shows how easily one may misunderstand the point that although a woman may be a brahmani (born in a brahmana family) she is never a brahmana by occupation. A woman born in a family of brahmanas in never a brahmana because she is never allowed the samskara that transforms a potential brahmana boy into a brahmana. Ksatriyas and vaisyas also receive this reformation. Women, no matter which family they are born into, never receive such reformation. The fact that Prabhupaa said "No" to women attending VA College also indicates that, in the future, women would not be given brahminical initiation. Why? Because only those trained as brahmanas in the VA Colleges would be given that distinction. Furthermore, aside from all the women, not every man would be given 2nd initiation. Why? Because Prabhupada wanted to start introducing the principles of VAD: Letter to: Sudama Rome 26 May, 1974 "You were present in Hawaii when I was there and was particularly stressing that the presidents must be very careful on recommending gayatri initiation. After all, we are criticizing false cast brahmanas, if we ourselves are bogus brahmanas then our position is very bad. Now that we are more and more trying to implement the varnasrama divisions of society, we should not think that everyone has to become a brahmana. For example you are developing a farm there; so those who work the farm do not necessarily have to be a brahmana if they are not inclined to the brahminical standards. In this way, be careful about awarding the second initiation." But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord. ys. JMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 > A man's > prescribed duties are divided according to the four occupational > divisions, a woman's prescribed duty is to serve her husband. Th three modes of material nature determine the quality of work for women as well as men. The modes act on ALL living entities including women. While I agree that the varnas are typically male designations a women has three positions of occupation not just one; she is daughter, wife or mother and sometimes she is two of these or all three of these. The particular modes of nature by which she is influenced will determine her quality of work within these occupational duties. All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically sudras or lower. Some women are influenced by the mode of goodness and take to brahminical activities in life and reflect those qualities as daughters, wives and mothers. Most women are influenced by the lower modes and their quality of work is effected liekwise. A similar ratio is seen in men. Few are brahmanas; most are of the lower modes. Prabhupada said there are always more sudras than anything. Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. And often we see many men with those designations who in fact do not even come close to the REAL goal and yet are proud of the designation. The designation is NOT the goal. "Even if one is a brahmana and is qualified with all the brahminical qualifications, he is considered degraded if he is averse to worshiping the SPG. But if a person is attached to the service of the lord, he becomes glorified even if he is born in a candala family. ...To substantiate this there are many quotations from Bhagavatama, Mahabharata, Bharadvaja-samhita and the Pancaratra, as well as many other scriptures." 4.31.10. We also see many men in certain designations who pose themselves as devotees by following *strictly* the different rituals but this too is not the goal. "...even if one is not sensuous but is strictly following the disciplines enjoined in the Vedic scripture, if he is not a devotee, he also cannot understand Krsna. Even when one poses himself as a devotee of Krsna, but is not engaged in KC activities, he also cannot understand Krsna." Bg 18.67 To understand and serve Krsna is the goal and this is equally available to males and females of the human race. Further to be a *brahmana* does not always mean the varna designation associated with the male duty. It can mean one who has attained brahminical realizations and qualities. Mothers, wives and daughters throughout history have atained these qualities and their examples are written about in scripture (Kunti, Gandhari, etc.) Also Prabhupada states the following: "Therefore it is irrefutable that a candala or any fallen or lowborn person can become a brahmana simply by the method of bona fide initiation." SB 5.1.35. He doesn't any *man*; he says any *person*. > But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can > still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona > fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna > conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without > attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord. > > ys. JMd This is very nice and correct. What I wonder is what it is you intend to accomplish by proving that women are not designated brahmana, ksatriya, etc.? What then? Maybe we should uplift the status of devotee daughter, devotee wife and devotee mother more and encourage positive acceptance of these great positions and occupations. I do not think there are that many women in ISKCON who would disagree with this. They want the goal not the designation which is a relative, material designation and many men have made the mistake of becoming completely attached to the false ego attached to these material designations and never attain the goal which is easily attained by a sincere sweeper women in the street because she is a devotee of the Lord. Jd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 > A man's > prescribed duties are divided according to the four occupational > divisions, a woman's prescribed duty is to serve her husband. Th three modes of material nature determine the quality of work for women as well as men. The modes act on ALL living entities including women. While I agree that the varnas are typically male designations a women has three positions of occupation not just one; she is daughter, wife or mother and sometimes she is two of these or all three of these. The particular modes of nature by which she is influenced will determine her quality of work within these occupational duties. All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically sudras or lower. Some women are influenced by the mode of goodness and take to brahminical activities in life and reflect those qualities as daughters, wives and mothers. Most women are influenced by the lower modes and their quality of work is effected liekwise. A similar ratio is seen in men. Few are brahmanas; most are of the lower modes. Prabhupada said there are always more sudras than anything. Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. And often we see many men with those designations who in fact do not even come close to the REAL goal and yet are proud of the designation. The designation is NOT the goal. "Even if one is a brahmana and is qualified with all the brahminical qualifications, he is considered degraded if he is averse to worshiping the SPG. But if a person is attached to the service of the lord, he becomes glorified even if he is born in a candala family. ...To substantiate this there are many quotations from Bhagavatama, Mahabharata, Bharadvaja-samhita and the Pancaratra, as well as many other scriptures." 4.31.10. We also see many men in certain designations who pose themselves as devotees by following *strictly* the different rituals but this too is not the goal. "...even if one is not sensuous but is strictly following the disciplines enjoined in the Vedic scripture, if he is not a devotee, he also cannot understand Krsna. Even when one poses himself as a devotee of Krsna, but is not engaged in KC activities, he also cannot understand Krsna." Bg 18.67 To understand and serve Krsna is the goal and this is equally available to males and females of the human race. Further to be a *brahmana* does not always mean the varna designation associated with the male duty. It can mean one who has attained brahminical realizations and qualities. Mothers, wives and daughters throughout history have atained these qualities and their examples are written about in scripture (Kunti, Gandhari, etc.) Also Prabhupada states the following: "Therefore it is irrefutable that a candala or any fallen or lowborn person can become a brahmana simply by the method of bona fide initiation." SB 5.1.35. He doesn't any *man*; he says any *person*. > But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can > still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona > fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna > conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without > attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord. > > ys. JMd This is very nice and correct. What I wonder is what it is you intend to accomplish by proving that women are not designated brahmana, ksatriya, etc.? What then? Maybe we should uplift the status of devotee daughter, devotee wife and devotee mother more and encourage positive acceptance of these great positions and occupations. I do not think there are that many women in ISKCON who would disagree with this. They want the goal not the designation which is a relative, material designation and many men have made the mistake of becoming completely attached to the false ego attached to these material designations and never attain the goal which is easily attained by a sincere sweeper women in the street because she is a devotee of the Lord. Jd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 At 6:05 PM -0500 12/12/99, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote: >[Text 2851870 from COM] >While I >agree that the varnas are typically male designations a women has three >positions of occupation not just one; she is daughter, wife or mother and >sometimes she is two of these or all three of these. I agree. >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically >sudras or lower. Yes they are. As a class, all women are classified as sudras (actually, papa-yoni). In fact Narada mentions them after the sudras in his description of VAD categories in SB 7.11 >Some women are influenced by the mode of goodness and take >to brahminical activities in life and reflect those qualities as daughters, >wives and mothers. Most women are influenced by the lower modes and their >quality of work is effected liekwise. I agree, Just like some vaisyas are more brahminical than others and some ksatriyas (like Yudhisthira) are more brahminical than other ksatriyas. But they are sudras and ksatriyas all the same. So just because one woman is a little more "brahminical" than another doesn't make her a brahmana. I don't think I have to post Prabhupada's quote on that again, do I? >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra to >attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. >And often we see many men with those designations >who in fact do not even come close to the REAL goal and yet are proud of the >designation. The designation is NOT the goal. Absolutely. This is why Lord Caitanya said, kiba vipra kiba nyasi...and that VAD was external. >To understand and serve Krsna is the goal and this is equally available to >males and females of the human race. Absolutely. >Further to be a *brahmana* does not always mean the varna designation >associated with the male duty. It can mean one who has attained brahminical >realizations and qualities. Mothers, wives and daughters throughout history >have atained these qualities and their examples are written about in >scripture (Kunti, Gandhari, etc.) Exactly. Otherwise how can Arjuna, a ksatriya, achieve perfection unless he too not only achieved brahminical status but superceded it by becoming a pure vaisnava. And it is for this reason that Prabhupada said women are brahmanas on spiritual platform only. They are never considered brahmanas from a social/occupational standpoint. Hence he said "NO!" to women attending VA Colleges because these colleges were for occupational/social training. A woman's occupational/social training is received by her mother at home i.e. how to cook, clean and serve the husband and his family. Therefore the demands of some women in ISKCON for equal occupational training and services with the men are at the very least delusions and at the worst demoniac. >Also Prabhupada states the following: > >"Therefore it is irrefutable that a candala or any fallen or lowborn person >can become a brahmana simply by the method of bona fide initiation." SB >5.1.35. > > >He doesn't any *man*; he says any *person*. I fully agree. >> But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can >> still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona >> fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna >> conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without >> attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord. >> >> ys. JMd > > >This is very nice and correct. What I wonder is what it is you intend to >accomplish by proving that women are not designated brahmana, ksatriya, >etc.? What then? What I and others hope to achieve is simply to clarify the roles we must play if we are at all serious about establishing VAD within our ISKCON communities. Unless men and women understand their respective prescribed duties, all this talk about VAD is a bad joke. Of course, we cannot force anyone to do anything. But at least in official ISKCON centres and in discussing the matter philosophically, there must be a consensus that men and women have different duties: the men according to VA divisions and the women as assistants to their husbands. Just like Prabhupada says in the Intro of BG that at least theoretically, when reading BGAII we must accept Lord Krsna as the SPofG.At least from that point, an understanding of the Absolute Truth can have a chance to take hold. >Maybe we should uplift the status of devotee daughter, devotee wife and >devotee mother more and encourage positive acceptance of these great >positions and occupations. I do not think there are that many women in >ISKCON who would disagree with this. Again, I agree with you totally. Not only must these womanly duties be honored, they must be seen as the essential and fundamental components of a sane human society. Without the nurturing of loving and chaste women and without the protection of responsible men, we are not even human, what to speak of vaisnavas. >They want the goal not the designation >which is a relative, material designation and many men have made the mistake >of becoming completely attached to the false ego attached to these material >designations and never attain the goal which is easily attained by a sincere >sweeper women in the street because she is a devotee of the Lord. I agree with you again. Now the question: "How do the objectives of the IWM reflect and support this reality? >Jd Thank you for a very sober and intelligent response. ys. JMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 At 6:05 PM -0500 12/12/99, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote: >[Text 2851870 from COM] >While I >agree that the varnas are typically male designations a women has three >positions of occupation not just one; she is daughter, wife or mother and >sometimes she is two of these or all three of these. I agree. >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically >sudras or lower. Yes they are. As a class, all women are classified as sudras (actually, papa-yoni). In fact Narada mentions them after the sudras in his description of VAD categories in SB 7.11 >Some women are influenced by the mode of goodness and take >to brahminical activities in life and reflect those qualities as daughters, >wives and mothers. Most women are influenced by the lower modes and their >quality of work is effected liekwise. I agree, Just like some vaisyas are more brahminical than others and some ksatriyas (like Yudhisthira) are more brahminical than other ksatriyas. But they are sudras and ksatriyas all the same. So just because one woman is a little more "brahminical" than another doesn't make her a brahmana. I don't think I have to post Prabhupada's quote on that again, do I? >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra to >attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. >And often we see many men with those designations >who in fact do not even come close to the REAL goal and yet are proud of the >designation. The designation is NOT the goal. Absolutely. This is why Lord Caitanya said, kiba vipra kiba nyasi...and that VAD was external. >To understand and serve Krsna is the goal and this is equally available to >males and females of the human race. Absolutely. >Further to be a *brahmana* does not always mean the varna designation >associated with the male duty. It can mean one who has attained brahminical >realizations and qualities. Mothers, wives and daughters throughout history >have atained these qualities and their examples are written about in >scripture (Kunti, Gandhari, etc.) Exactly. Otherwise how can Arjuna, a ksatriya, achieve perfection unless he too not only achieved brahminical status but superceded it by becoming a pure vaisnava. And it is for this reason that Prabhupada said women are brahmanas on spiritual platform only. They are never considered brahmanas from a social/occupational standpoint. Hence he said "NO!" to women attending VA Colleges because these colleges were for occupational/social training. A woman's occupational/social training is received by her mother at home i.e. how to cook, clean and serve the husband and his family. Therefore the demands of some women in ISKCON for equal occupational training and services with the men are at the very least delusions and at the worst demoniac. >Also Prabhupada states the following: > >"Therefore it is irrefutable that a candala or any fallen or lowborn person >can become a brahmana simply by the method of bona fide initiation." SB >5.1.35. > > >He doesn't any *man*; he says any *person*. I fully agree. >> But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can >> still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona >> fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna >> conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without >> attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord. >> >> ys. JMd > > >This is very nice and correct. What I wonder is what it is you intend to >accomplish by proving that women are not designated brahmana, ksatriya, >etc.? What then? What I and others hope to achieve is simply to clarify the roles we must play if we are at all serious about establishing VAD within our ISKCON communities. Unless men and women understand their respective prescribed duties, all this talk about VAD is a bad joke. Of course, we cannot force anyone to do anything. But at least in official ISKCON centres and in discussing the matter philosophically, there must be a consensus that men and women have different duties: the men according to VA divisions and the women as assistants to their husbands. Just like Prabhupada says in the Intro of BG that at least theoretically, when reading BGAII we must accept Lord Krsna as the SPofG.At least from that point, an understanding of the Absolute Truth can have a chance to take hold. >Maybe we should uplift the status of devotee daughter, devotee wife and >devotee mother more and encourage positive acceptance of these great >positions and occupations. I do not think there are that many women in >ISKCON who would disagree with this. Again, I agree with you totally. Not only must these womanly duties be honored, they must be seen as the essential and fundamental components of a sane human society. Without the nurturing of loving and chaste women and without the protection of responsible men, we are not even human, what to speak of vaisnavas. >They want the goal not the designation >which is a relative, material designation and many men have made the mistake >of becoming completely attached to the false ego attached to these material >designations and never attain the goal which is easily attained by a sincere >sweeper women in the street because she is a devotee of the Lord. I agree with you again. Now the question: "How do the objectives of the IWM reflect and support this reality? >Jd Thank you for a very sober and intelligent response. ys. JMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 Jivan Mukta Dasa wrote: > Intelligence, then, means to accept our prescribed duties (material affair) > without attachment (or aversion) and "everything should be dovetailed with > the service of the Lord." Exactly our point. A man's prescribed duties are > divided according to the four occupational divisions, a woman's prescribed > duty is to serve her husband. Narada Muni explains these prescribed duties > of VAD to Yudhistira Maharaja in SB 7.11. The problem is that you only bring forward a limited point of view. The male point of view. What if we see it another way. That the women's duty in society is much more important than the man's, so for her it would be a waste of time to dibble in male things. She does not need to go through the Samskaras, since they are for men, and their understanding. She is qualified without them. If she has a matching husband, she automatically reaches the same level as him, without having to go through all the rituals and things the men has to go through. You are trying to build up a society in ISKCON, but don't see the importance of women. You think they are some kind of lower class than men. And what do we see? Failure everywhere. So much problems. If you would understand the fundamental importance of women, and the importance of her position. That it is completely impossible to build up any society without women, no matter how qualified brahmana you are, then maybe you would also start to understand the dynamics of society, and how to build up Varnasrama. Now, I don't mean that women are more important. But their duties are as important as the men's, and it is of a different quality. And where women can perform men's duties, men can not perform women's duties. There is an insymmetry there. Men are generally psychologically unable to do things women does. In exchanges for the incredible versatility of women, men have higher ability to become experts. But we cannot have a society of only women. Nor of only men. It is the co-operation of both sexes that are needed. That is how society is, and how the laws of material nature are. As a man, you need to learn to handle fire, without getting burnt, to be able to get out of the material world. Something much harder than just false renunciation. Women just need to tolerate men. That is not so easy as you might think. Nature is also giving many bodily hardships to the women, that men does not have to endure. There are simply different prescribed duties for men and women. But don't commit the mistake and think that all the hardship is on men, and women who does not have so many rituals to go through, are spared. You might get born as a women, to learn the truth. Better go directly back to Godhead. ys Prisni dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 Jivan Mukta Dasa wrote: > Intelligence, then, means to accept our prescribed duties (material affair) > without attachment (or aversion) and "everything should be dovetailed with > the service of the Lord." Exactly our point. A man's prescribed duties are > divided according to the four occupational divisions, a woman's prescribed > duty is to serve her husband. Narada Muni explains these prescribed duties > of VAD to Yudhistira Maharaja in SB 7.11. The problem is that you only bring forward a limited point of view. The male point of view. What if we see it another way. That the women's duty in society is much more important than the man's, so for her it would be a waste of time to dibble in male things. She does not need to go through the Samskaras, since they are for men, and their understanding. She is qualified without them. If she has a matching husband, she automatically reaches the same level as him, without having to go through all the rituals and things the men has to go through. You are trying to build up a society in ISKCON, but don't see the importance of women. You think they are some kind of lower class than men. And what do we see? Failure everywhere. So much problems. If you would understand the fundamental importance of women, and the importance of her position. That it is completely impossible to build up any society without women, no matter how qualified brahmana you are, then maybe you would also start to understand the dynamics of society, and how to build up Varnasrama. Now, I don't mean that women are more important. But their duties are as important as the men's, and it is of a different quality. And where women can perform men's duties, men can not perform women's duties. There is an insymmetry there. Men are generally psychologically unable to do things women does. In exchanges for the incredible versatility of women, men have higher ability to become experts. But we cannot have a society of only women. Nor of only men. It is the co-operation of both sexes that are needed. That is how society is, and how the laws of material nature are. As a man, you need to learn to handle fire, without getting burnt, to be able to get out of the material world. Something much harder than just false renunciation. Women just need to tolerate men. That is not so easy as you might think. Nature is also giving many bodily hardships to the women, that men does not have to endure. There are simply different prescribed duties for men and women. But don't commit the mistake and think that all the hardship is on men, and women who does not have so many rituals to go through, are spared. You might get born as a women, to learn the truth. Better go directly back to Godhead. ys Prisni dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 > >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically > >sudras or lower. > > Yes they are. I wouldn't say that to Draupadi or Kunti or Mother Sarasvati if I were you. > >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra > >to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as > >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. > > Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. This statement needn't have been made. You reveal a concealed contempt it seems. A bias. A prejudice. You seem to imply that women are not good enough to get a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, etc., as if these designations actually ARE a goal of sorts. If a man has acquired the designation of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra it is due only to his being in the material world and therefore effected by the modes of material nature. This is not really something to be proud of. If we *deserve* these designations it is due only to our material consciousness. The designations are there for us to know what our prescribed duties should be in order to perfect our lives. We have to add qualities to our duties otherwise it is only a material caste system. We leave the designation behind when we leave the material world and simply become designated as eternal servants. Humans who acquire the designation of daughter, wife or mother are similarly effected by the modes of nature and they must also follow the prescribed duties for those positions in order to perfect their lives, but they do NOT have to acquire the designations of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra before they are allowed to leave this material world. They can go back home at the end of this life riding the spirit train of the Holy Name. You can be a perfect brahmana but if you are not a perfect devotee it is useless as far as becoming a lover of the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 > >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically > >sudras or lower. > > Yes they are. I wouldn't say that to Draupadi or Kunti or Mother Sarasvati if I were you. > >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra > >to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as > >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. > > Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. This statement needn't have been made. You reveal a concealed contempt it seems. A bias. A prejudice. You seem to imply that women are not good enough to get a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, etc., as if these designations actually ARE a goal of sorts. If a man has acquired the designation of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra it is due only to his being in the material world and therefore effected by the modes of material nature. This is not really something to be proud of. If we *deserve* these designations it is due only to our material consciousness. The designations are there for us to know what our prescribed duties should be in order to perfect our lives. We have to add qualities to our duties otherwise it is only a material caste system. We leave the designation behind when we leave the material world and simply become designated as eternal servants. Humans who acquire the designation of daughter, wife or mother are similarly effected by the modes of nature and they must also follow the prescribed duties for those positions in order to perfect their lives, but they do NOT have to acquire the designations of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra before they are allowed to leave this material world. They can go back home at the end of this life riding the spirit train of the Holy Name. You can be a perfect brahmana but if you are not a perfect devotee it is useless as far as becoming a lover of the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 At 10:17 AM -0500 12/13/99, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote: >[Text 2854965 from COM] > >> >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically >> >sudras or lower. >> >> Yes they are. >I wouldn't say that to Draupadi or Kunti or Mother Sarasvati if I were you. The truth applies to everyone. Even Sati admitted that she was socially equal to a sudra. >> >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >> >to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as >> >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. >> >> Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. >This statement needn't have been made. You reveal a concealed contempt it >seems. A bias. A prejudice. '"Woman does not deserve independence." Manu has given this. Yes. This is Manu-smrti. So Vedic culture means to follow the regulative principle.'(Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio) I have no contempt for women; I have contempt for those who promote the demoniac "puffed up concept of womanly life." (BG 16.7) I obviously have a bias and prejudice in favor of VAD and Vedic culture as presented to us by Srila Prabhupada. >You seem to imply that women are not good enough >to get a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, etc., as if these designations >actually ARE a goal of sorts. They are an adminstrative goal, not a spiritual goal. They are the goal you have been requesting the GBC to implement for the last 25 years. >If a man has acquired the designation of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >it is due only to his being in the material world and therefore effected by >the modes of material nature. This is not really something to be proud of. >If we *deserve* these designations it is due only to our material >consciousness. Exactly. There is nothing to be proud of, yet a society devoid of these mundane principles isn't even human. >The designations are there for us to know what our prescribed duties should >be in order to perfect our lives. We have to add qualities to our duties >otherwise it is only a material caste system. We leave the designation >behind when we leave the material world and simply become designated as >eternal servants. Yes. Just like Arjuna was a kstariya but his fighting has the quality of pure unalloyed devotion. That is wanted. >Humans who acquire the designation of daughter, wife or mother are similarly >effected by the modes of nature and they must also follow the prescribed >duties for those positions in order to perfect their lives, but they do NOT >have to acquire the designations of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >before they are allowed to leave this material world. They can go back home >at the end of this life riding the spirit train of the Holy Name. >You can be a perfect brahmana but if you are not a perfect devotee it is >useless as far as becoming a lover of the Lord. That is precisly the point. I agree with you 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 At 10:17 AM -0500 12/13/99, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote: >[Text 2854965 from COM] > >> >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically >> >sudras or lower. >> >> Yes they are. >I wouldn't say that to Draupadi or Kunti or Mother Sarasvati if I were you. The truth applies to everyone. Even Sati admitted that she was socially equal to a sudra. >> >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >> >to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as >> >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. >> >> Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. >This statement needn't have been made. You reveal a concealed contempt it >seems. A bias. A prejudice. '"Woman does not deserve independence." Manu has given this. Yes. This is Manu-smrti. So Vedic culture means to follow the regulative principle.'(Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio) I have no contempt for women; I have contempt for those who promote the demoniac "puffed up concept of womanly life." (BG 16.7) I obviously have a bias and prejudice in favor of VAD and Vedic culture as presented to us by Srila Prabhupada. >You seem to imply that women are not good enough >to get a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, etc., as if these designations >actually ARE a goal of sorts. They are an adminstrative goal, not a spiritual goal. They are the goal you have been requesting the GBC to implement for the last 25 years. >If a man has acquired the designation of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >it is due only to his being in the material world and therefore effected by >the modes of material nature. This is not really something to be proud of. >If we *deserve* these designations it is due only to our material >consciousness. Exactly. There is nothing to be proud of, yet a society devoid of these mundane principles isn't even human. >The designations are there for us to know what our prescribed duties should >be in order to perfect our lives. We have to add qualities to our duties >otherwise it is only a material caste system. We leave the designation >behind when we leave the material world and simply become designated as >eternal servants. Yes. Just like Arjuna was a kstariya but his fighting has the quality of pure unalloyed devotion. That is wanted. >Humans who acquire the designation of daughter, wife or mother are similarly >effected by the modes of nature and they must also follow the prescribed >duties for those positions in order to perfect their lives, but they do NOT >have to acquire the designations of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >before they are allowed to leave this material world. They can go back home >at the end of this life riding the spirit train of the Holy Name. >You can be a perfect brahmana but if you are not a perfect devotee it is >useless as far as becoming a lover of the Lord. That is precisly the point. I agree with you 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 > Exactly. Otherwise how can Arjuna, a ksatriya, achieve perfection unless > he too not only achieved brahminical status but superceded it by becoming > a pure vaisnava. And it is for this reason that Prabhupada said women are > brahmanas on spiritual platform only. They are never considered brahmanas > from a social/occupational standpoint. Hence he said "NO!" to women > attending VA Colleges because these colleges were for occupational/social > training. A woman's occupational/social training is received by her mother > at home i.e. how to cook, clean and serve the husband and his family. > Therefore the demands of some women in ISKCON for equal occupational > training and services with the men are at the very least delusions and at > the worst demoniac. > You see, you don't know what you are talking about. Arjuna didn't become pure vaisnava. He was and always is a pure vaisnava. He is an eternal associate of the Lord. Arjuna never became a brahmana, he was always acting as a ksatriya. One is not becoming a pure vaisnava by becoming a brahmana, but by realizing that one is not the doer of the activities carried out by the material nature. When you realize that you are not the doer and that all material activities are carried out by the material nature, then you don't get anymore reaction from the material activities. Material activities are all the time carried out by the material nature, but as long you are identifying, you are getting the reaction, and when you stop identifying then you don't get the reaction (inaction in action). That means giving up false ego. False ego means that you identify yourself as the doer of activities that are actualy carried out by the material nature. 1. What is the difference between a pure devotee material body and a materialistic person material body? There is no difference. a) Material body of a pure devotee is a kind of body that has a soul within who doesn't identify himself as the doer of activities of material body. A pure devotee (soul) performs spiritual activities. Material activities of the pure devotees body are carried out by the material nature, but because the soul knows that is only the modes of material nature acting he doesn't get the reaction and even those material activities are spiritualized in that way. b) Material body of a materialist is a kind of a body that has a soul within who is in a dormant condition (because of not performing spiritual activities) and the soul is thinking that it's him that is performing material activities. > > What I and others hope to achieve is simply to clarify the roles we must > play if we are at all serious about establishing VAD within our ISKCON > communities. How do you establish varnasrama-dharma if you don't even know what is varna? You have to know what is varna in order to be able to clasify bodies. And it is not the souls that are classified. Varnasrama dharma is the classification of the bodies according to the nature of activities that those bodies are performing. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 > Exactly. Otherwise how can Arjuna, a ksatriya, achieve perfection unless > he too not only achieved brahminical status but superceded it by becoming > a pure vaisnava. And it is for this reason that Prabhupada said women are > brahmanas on spiritual platform only. They are never considered brahmanas > from a social/occupational standpoint. Hence he said "NO!" to women > attending VA Colleges because these colleges were for occupational/social > training. A woman's occupational/social training is received by her mother > at home i.e. how to cook, clean and serve the husband and his family. > Therefore the demands of some women in ISKCON for equal occupational > training and services with the men are at the very least delusions and at > the worst demoniac. > You see, you don't know what you are talking about. Arjuna didn't become pure vaisnava. He was and always is a pure vaisnava. He is an eternal associate of the Lord. Arjuna never became a brahmana, he was always acting as a ksatriya. One is not becoming a pure vaisnava by becoming a brahmana, but by realizing that one is not the doer of the activities carried out by the material nature. When you realize that you are not the doer and that all material activities are carried out by the material nature, then you don't get anymore reaction from the material activities. Material activities are all the time carried out by the material nature, but as long you are identifying, you are getting the reaction, and when you stop identifying then you don't get the reaction (inaction in action). That means giving up false ego. False ego means that you identify yourself as the doer of activities that are actualy carried out by the material nature. 1. What is the difference between a pure devotee material body and a materialistic person material body? There is no difference. a) Material body of a pure devotee is a kind of body that has a soul within who doesn't identify himself as the doer of activities of material body. A pure devotee (soul) performs spiritual activities. Material activities of the pure devotees body are carried out by the material nature, but because the soul knows that is only the modes of material nature acting he doesn't get the reaction and even those material activities are spiritualized in that way. b) Material body of a materialist is a kind of a body that has a soul within who is in a dormant condition (because of not performing spiritual activities) and the soul is thinking that it's him that is performing material activities. > > What I and others hope to achieve is simply to clarify the roles we must > play if we are at all serious about establishing VAD within our ISKCON > communities. How do you establish varnasrama-dharma if you don't even know what is varna? You have to know what is varna in order to be able to clasify bodies. And it is not the souls that are classified. Varnasrama dharma is the classification of the bodies according to the nature of activities that those bodies are performing. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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