Guest guest Posted December 10, 1999 Report Share Posted December 10, 1999 > > On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: > I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of the > guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his during an > earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and significantly > distinguishes from a later portion. I guess my question, as always, is: What would you have us do with all of these devotees who do not follow strictly the example or orders of the spiritual master after initiation? Banish them from spiritual endeavor forever? And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be burned on a cross or something? If there are devotees who do not follow the strictest standards of Vedic culture or the spiritual masters instructions after initiation are they to be disallowed from continuing to practice bhakti-yoga which is the purifying force? No chanting the maha-mantra allowed? In other words does everyone have to be "clean" before they get into your shower of salvation? It seems I remember Krsna saying that four kinds of devotees approach Him and that they are ALL mahatmas. Some approach Him only for money or relief from misery and don't do any "advanced" devotional practices at all. He says they are all dear to Him. Are they not dear to you? I do not live up to so many standards of my guru and my role models like Sri Arjuna and Yudhistira. I truly want to but I am having a difficult time with this material energy. I am hoping somehow or other to continue to take shelter of the holy names for as long as it takes to clean up my act. Shall I be banished until I am cleansed by some other method because you will not allow me to take part in devotional service? Would you banish all of the devotee prostitutes who lived in Krsna's city of Dvaraka because they were not serving a husband? This is meant only as an extreme example and is not meant to reflect on our fine devotee matajis who are certainly not prostitutes (not that there is anything wrong with that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 1999 Report Share Posted December 10, 1999 > > On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: > I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of the > guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his during an > earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and significantly > distinguishes from a later portion. I guess my question, as always, is: What would you have us do with all of these devotees who do not follow strictly the example or orders of the spiritual master after initiation? Banish them from spiritual endeavor forever? And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be burned on a cross or something? If there are devotees who do not follow the strictest standards of Vedic culture or the spiritual masters instructions after initiation are they to be disallowed from continuing to practice bhakti-yoga which is the purifying force? No chanting the maha-mantra allowed? In other words does everyone have to be "clean" before they get into your shower of salvation? It seems I remember Krsna saying that four kinds of devotees approach Him and that they are ALL mahatmas. Some approach Him only for money or relief from misery and don't do any "advanced" devotional practices at all. He says they are all dear to Him. Are they not dear to you? I do not live up to so many standards of my guru and my role models like Sri Arjuna and Yudhistira. I truly want to but I am having a difficult time with this material energy. I am hoping somehow or other to continue to take shelter of the holy names for as long as it takes to clean up my act. Shall I be banished until I am cleansed by some other method because you will not allow me to take part in devotional service? Would you banish all of the devotee prostitutes who lived in Krsna's city of Dvaraka because they were not serving a husband? This is meant only as an extreme example and is not meant to reflect on our fine devotee matajis who are certainly not prostitutes (not that there is anything wrong with that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 1999 Report Share Posted December 10, 1999 >> On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: >> I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of the >> guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his during an >> earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and significantly >> distinguishes from a later portion. >I guess my question, as always, is: What would you have us do with all of these >devotees who do not follow strictly the example or orders of the spiritual master >after initiation? Banish them from spiritual endeavor forever? Of course not, prabhu. Nor do I strictly follow every order of the spiritual master. However, I do think that we should be encouraging each other to strictly follow every order of the spiritual master. For unless we think that some/any of the orders of the spiritual master are not important, why should we *not* be striving to follow every last one of them? >And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be burned on >a cross or something? There is not one feminist that I know of who is an obstacle to my spiritual progress--but obstacles to their own or others' spiritual progress they may well be. >If there are devotees who do not follow the strictest standards of Vedic culture or >the spiritual masters instructions after initiation are they to be disallowed from >continuing to practice bhakti-yoga which is the purifying force? No chanting the >maha-mantra allowed? Why are such extreme questions being asked in response to my one sentence above, the essence of which is simply this: "we should follow the orders of, not imitate, the spiritual master." >In other words does everyone have to be "clean" before they get into your shower of >salvation? Why "my shower of salvation"? My heart is chunk of coal. .. >It seems I remember Krsna saying that four kinds of devotees approach Him and that >they are ALL mahatmas. Some approach Him only for money or relief from misery and >don't do any "advanced" devotional practices at all. He says they are all dear to >Him. Are they not dear to you? That is Krsna's perfect magnanimity. I am quite an opposite character. Who is dear to me? That I don't know. But neither do I think that Krsna is wrong to accept all four kinds of His devotees as dear. And what to speak of neophyte devotees, even the demons are dear to Krsna, aren't they? Yet *we* are supposed to neglect them. Similarly, as you know, if we want to become still more dear to Krsna, then we must dedicate our lives to helping others to approach Him--right? >I do not live up to so many standards of my guru and my role models like Sri Arjuna >and Yudhistira. I truly want to but I am having a difficult time with this material >energy. I am hoping somehow or other to continue to take shelter of the holy names >for as long as it takes to clean up my act. Shall I be banished until I am cleansed >by some other method because you will not allow me to take part in devotional >service? Prabhu, I'm totally bewildered as to why you are asking me such questions, based on those 4 lines (at the top of this page) which I wrote. >Would you banish all of the devotee prostitutes who lived in Krsna's city of Dvaraka >because they were not serving a husband? This is meant only as an extreme example >and is not meant to reflect on our fine devotee matajis who are certainly not >prostitutes (not that there is anything wrong with that) Same reply, prabhu. There's no question of me disagreeing with Krsna's program for anyone--be they rapists, prostitutes, murders, or paramahamsas. Nevertheless, neither would I dare to banish the commentaries on the horrible social conditions of Kali-yuga made by Krsna's dearmost devotee Srila Prabhhupada. Personally, I have no problem accepting both of these statements of Srila Prabhhupada's: 1) The prostitutes of Dvaraka were pure devotees of the Lord. 2) Woman without husband means prostitute. Others may wince or waffle. I won't. Others may fear what the so-called respectable academicians will think. I don't. Others may be embarrased if grilled by those seeking to weaken their faith. I'm not. Proud rascal that I have always been, I feel quite proud to repeat the words of our beloved founder-acarya, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. "One who understands and appreciates the disciplic succession is certainly advanced, and we should always be very careful to give full respect to those who have so carefully handled this Divine Fruit of transcendental knowledge before us. Even a slight change will spoil it. That is why I have always been so careful to give you only those things which I have heard from my Guru Maharaja." (Letter to: Satsvarupa/Hamsaduta, August 1967) ys, guru-krsna das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 1999 Report Share Posted December 10, 1999 >> On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: >> I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of the >> guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his during an >> earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and significantly >> distinguishes from a later portion. >I guess my question, as always, is: What would you have us do with all of these >devotees who do not follow strictly the example or orders of the spiritual master >after initiation? Banish them from spiritual endeavor forever? Of course not, prabhu. Nor do I strictly follow every order of the spiritual master. However, I do think that we should be encouraging each other to strictly follow every order of the spiritual master. For unless we think that some/any of the orders of the spiritual master are not important, why should we *not* be striving to follow every last one of them? >And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be burned on >a cross or something? There is not one feminist that I know of who is an obstacle to my spiritual progress--but obstacles to their own or others' spiritual progress they may well be. >If there are devotees who do not follow the strictest standards of Vedic culture or >the spiritual masters instructions after initiation are they to be disallowed from >continuing to practice bhakti-yoga which is the purifying force? No chanting the >maha-mantra allowed? Why are such extreme questions being asked in response to my one sentence above, the essence of which is simply this: "we should follow the orders of, not imitate, the spiritual master." >In other words does everyone have to be "clean" before they get into your shower of >salvation? Why "my shower of salvation"? My heart is chunk of coal. .. >It seems I remember Krsna saying that four kinds of devotees approach Him and that >they are ALL mahatmas. Some approach Him only for money or relief from misery and >don't do any "advanced" devotional practices at all. He says they are all dear to >Him. Are they not dear to you? That is Krsna's perfect magnanimity. I am quite an opposite character. Who is dear to me? That I don't know. But neither do I think that Krsna is wrong to accept all four kinds of His devotees as dear. And what to speak of neophyte devotees, even the demons are dear to Krsna, aren't they? Yet *we* are supposed to neglect them. Similarly, as you know, if we want to become still more dear to Krsna, then we must dedicate our lives to helping others to approach Him--right? >I do not live up to so many standards of my guru and my role models like Sri Arjuna >and Yudhistira. I truly want to but I am having a difficult time with this material >energy. I am hoping somehow or other to continue to take shelter of the holy names >for as long as it takes to clean up my act. Shall I be banished until I am cleansed >by some other method because you will not allow me to take part in devotional >service? Prabhu, I'm totally bewildered as to why you are asking me such questions, based on those 4 lines (at the top of this page) which I wrote. >Would you banish all of the devotee prostitutes who lived in Krsna's city of Dvaraka >because they were not serving a husband? This is meant only as an extreme example >and is not meant to reflect on our fine devotee matajis who are certainly not >prostitutes (not that there is anything wrong with that) Same reply, prabhu. There's no question of me disagreeing with Krsna's program for anyone--be they rapists, prostitutes, murders, or paramahamsas. Nevertheless, neither would I dare to banish the commentaries on the horrible social conditions of Kali-yuga made by Krsna's dearmost devotee Srila Prabhhupada. Personally, I have no problem accepting both of these statements of Srila Prabhhupada's: 1) The prostitutes of Dvaraka were pure devotees of the Lord. 2) Woman without husband means prostitute. Others may wince or waffle. I won't. Others may fear what the so-called respectable academicians will think. I don't. Others may be embarrased if grilled by those seeking to weaken their faith. I'm not. Proud rascal that I have always been, I feel quite proud to repeat the words of our beloved founder-acarya, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. "One who understands and appreciates the disciplic succession is certainly advanced, and we should always be very careful to give full respect to those who have so carefully handled this Divine Fruit of transcendental knowledge before us. Even a slight change will spoil it. That is why I have always been so careful to give you only those things which I have heard from my Guru Maharaja." (Letter to: Satsvarupa/Hamsaduta, August 1967) ys, guru-krsna das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 > >> On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: > > >> I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of > >> the guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his > >> during an earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and > >> significantly distinguishes from a later portion. > > >I guess my question, as always, is: What would you have us do with all of > these >devotees who do not follow strictly the example or orders of the > spiritual master >after initiation? Banish them from spiritual endeavor > forever? > > Of course not, prabhu. Nor do I strictly follow every order of the > spiritual master. However, I do think that we should be encouraging each > other to strictly follow every order of the spiritual master. For unless > we think that some/any of the orders of the spiritual master are not > important, why should we *not* be striving to follow every last one of > them? Encouraging each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient. To emphasize "strict" following coming from anyone who is not strictly following themselves is hypocritical and will never be taken well by others. It is certainly not positive reinforcement. Leave "strict following" enforcement to the guru, and directly between the guru and his disciple. By virtue of Srila Prabhupada's books we all know the wonderful high standards of KC and devotional service as exemplified by such devotees as Narada, the six Goswamis, Kunti devi and countless others. We should give positive support to others saying, "Oh, don't worry Prabhu, we're all fallen, but by chanting Hare Krsna we will all one day, maybe millions of days from now, become sincere lovers of the Lord. Until then I will help you in your "fallen" periods if you will help me in my "fallen" times." I don't think a lot of talk about who is following strictly and who is not following strictly need be discussed. If a person is a devotee of God, he or she is a mahatma and deserves positive input no matter if they are at the beginning stages where they will be committing many faulty acts. They are headed in the right direction. If they are even doing a tiny bit of devotional service in any way, and humbly not pretending to be something they are not, we should keep our mouth shut unless we are going to say something friendly to them and go on about our own personal business of self realization. I remember the story of Srila Prabhupada talking about a good friend of mine, Devakinandana dasa in New Vrindavana. Devaki wasn't much for chanting rounds nor other temple worship and sankirtana. All he loved doing at the time was taking fantastic care of the cows. He slept through mangala-artik regularly but would be there to milk the cows for hours everyday. Srila Prabhupada loved his service to the cows and when told that he was sleeping too much and not chanting his rounds Srila Prabhupada said, "Maybe he's tired". He invited Devaki, personally, to come to Vrindavana to take care of the cows in the Holy Dhama. > >And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be > burned on >a cross or something? > > There is not one feminist that I know of who is an obstacle to my > spiritual progress--but obstacles to their own or others' spiritual > progress they may well be. Lets mind our own business. Keep our mouths shut, keep to ourselves and keeping working hard. Leave the business of others strictly following or being obstacles to Krsna, guru and the other devotee's heart. > >If there are devotees who do not follow the strictest standards of Vedic > culture or >the spiritual masters instructions after initiation are they > to be disallowed from >continuing to practice bhakti-yoga which is the > purifying force? No chanting the >maha-mantra allowed? > > Why are such extreme questions being asked in response to my one sentence > above, the essence of which is simply this: "we should follow the orders > of, not imitate, the spiritual master." I am sorry. These questions are rhetorical in nature and not directed specifically at you but to those who hold such discriminatory attitudes. If a person is not pretending to be anything but a humble devotee trying to improve themselves through the process of ceto darpanam marjanam that is all we need be concerned with. And we should give all the time they want to take to do this. They can stay in the shower for as long as they want. It is up to Krsna only to decide when they "should" be clean. > >In other words does everyone have to be "clean" before they get into your > shower of >salvation? > > Why "my shower of salvation"? My heart is chunk of coal. Again, not directed at only you, Prabhu. But please reconsider the question anyway. > >It seems I remember Krsna saying that four kinds of devotees approach Him > and that >they are ALL mahatmas. Some approach Him only for money or > relief from misery and >don't do any "advanced" devotional practices at > all. He says they are all dear to >Him. Are they not dear to you? > > That is Krsna's perfect magnanimity. I am quite an opposite character. Who > is dear to me? That I don't know. But neither do I think that Krsna is > wrong to accept all four kinds of His devotees as dear. And what to speak > of neophyte devotees, even the demons are dear to Krsna, aren't they? He doesn't say that in context to the above reference from Bg. In fact his statement is quite the opposite I think. Devotees are saved, demons are killed by Him. >Yet > *we* are supposed to neglect them. Similarly, as you know, if we want to > become still more dear to Krsna, then we must dedicate our lives to > helping others to approach Him--right? Yes, through friendliness and positive support. Encouraging the chanting of the names of God (Krsna, Allah, Christ, etc.) is fully sufficient to help others, no matter what religion or geographical location, these neophyte devotees (all of us) may be found. > >I do not live up to so many standards of my guru and my role models like > Sri Arjuna >and Yudhistira. I truly want to but I am having a difficult > time with this material >energy. I am hoping somehow or other to continue > to take shelter of the holy names >for as long as it takes to clean up my > act. Shall I be banished until I am cleansed >by some other method because > you will not allow me to take part in devotional >service? > > Prabhu, I'm totally bewildered as to why you are asking me such questions, > based on those 4 lines (at the top of this page) which I wrote. Don't take it personally. > >Would you banish all of the devotee prostitutes who lived in Krsna's city > of Dvaraka >because they were not serving a husband? This is meant only as > an extreme example > >and is not meant to reflect on our fine devotee matajis who are certainly > not >prostitutes (not that there is anything wrong with that) > Same reply, prabhu. There's no question of me disagreeing with Krsna's > program for anyone--be they rapists, prostitutes, murders, or > paramahamsas. Nevertheless, neither would I dare to banish the > commentaries on the horrible social conditions of Kali-yuga made by > Krsna's dearmost devotee Srila Prabhhupada. I don't think you were left alone in charge as the acarya or savior of everyone in the material world. Give others the books and let them read about the commentaries from the pure devotee. Encourage them. Leave the fire and brimstone out of it. > Personally, I have no problem > accepting both of these statements of Srila Prabhhupada's: > > 1) The prostitutes of Dvaraka were pure devotees of the Lord. > 2) Woman without husband means prostitute. You see, there you go again. Write us an example of another way which you could write the above which is more positive and uplifting. Some women without husbands are definitely NOT prostitutes and you know that. Srila Prabhupada surely did not call his many single women disciples prostitutes did he? No, he encouraged them to chant Hare Krsna so that the Lord would do the needful for those women in His own time frame. > Others may wince or waffle. I won't. Others may fear what the so-called > respectable academicians will think. I don't. Others may be embarrased if > grilled by those seeking to weaken their faith. I'm not. Proud rascal that > I have always been, I feel quite proud to repeat the words of our beloved > founder-acarya, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. So proud you are. Does it really feel right, Prabhu? Hari-kirtan is so much more powerful than all of our pride. > "One who understands and appreciates the disciplic succession is certainly > advanced, and we should always be very careful to give full respect to > those who have so carefully handled this Divine Fruit of transcendental > knowledge before us. Even a slight change will spoil it. That is why I > have always been so careful to give you only those things which I have > heard from my Guru Maharaja." (Letter to: Satsvarupa/Hamsaduta, August > 1967) > > ys, > guru-krsna das And he did it in such a nice way that even low-life rascals like me took it up even though I was stubbornly attached to sense gratification and still am. Hari! Hari! Janesvara dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 > >> On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: > > >> I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of > >> the guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his > >> during an earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and > >> significantly distinguishes from a later portion. > > >I guess my question, as always, is: What would you have us do with all of > these >devotees who do not follow strictly the example or orders of the > spiritual master >after initiation? Banish them from spiritual endeavor > forever? > > Of course not, prabhu. Nor do I strictly follow every order of the > spiritual master. However, I do think that we should be encouraging each > other to strictly follow every order of the spiritual master. For unless > we think that some/any of the orders of the spiritual master are not > important, why should we *not* be striving to follow every last one of > them? Encouraging each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient. To emphasize "strict" following coming from anyone who is not strictly following themselves is hypocritical and will never be taken well by others. It is certainly not positive reinforcement. Leave "strict following" enforcement to the guru, and directly between the guru and his disciple. By virtue of Srila Prabhupada's books we all know the wonderful high standards of KC and devotional service as exemplified by such devotees as Narada, the six Goswamis, Kunti devi and countless others. We should give positive support to others saying, "Oh, don't worry Prabhu, we're all fallen, but by chanting Hare Krsna we will all one day, maybe millions of days from now, become sincere lovers of the Lord. Until then I will help you in your "fallen" periods if you will help me in my "fallen" times." I don't think a lot of talk about who is following strictly and who is not following strictly need be discussed. If a person is a devotee of God, he or she is a mahatma and deserves positive input no matter if they are at the beginning stages where they will be committing many faulty acts. They are headed in the right direction. If they are even doing a tiny bit of devotional service in any way, and humbly not pretending to be something they are not, we should keep our mouth shut unless we are going to say something friendly to them and go on about our own personal business of self realization. I remember the story of Srila Prabhupada talking about a good friend of mine, Devakinandana dasa in New Vrindavana. Devaki wasn't much for chanting rounds nor other temple worship and sankirtana. All he loved doing at the time was taking fantastic care of the cows. He slept through mangala-artik regularly but would be there to milk the cows for hours everyday. Srila Prabhupada loved his service to the cows and when told that he was sleeping too much and not chanting his rounds Srila Prabhupada said, "Maybe he's tired". He invited Devaki, personally, to come to Vrindavana to take care of the cows in the Holy Dhama. > >And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be > burned on >a cross or something? > > There is not one feminist that I know of who is an obstacle to my > spiritual progress--but obstacles to their own or others' spiritual > progress they may well be. Lets mind our own business. Keep our mouths shut, keep to ourselves and keeping working hard. Leave the business of others strictly following or being obstacles to Krsna, guru and the other devotee's heart. > >If there are devotees who do not follow the strictest standards of Vedic > culture or >the spiritual masters instructions after initiation are they > to be disallowed from >continuing to practice bhakti-yoga which is the > purifying force? No chanting the >maha-mantra allowed? > > Why are such extreme questions being asked in response to my one sentence > above, the essence of which is simply this: "we should follow the orders > of, not imitate, the spiritual master." I am sorry. These questions are rhetorical in nature and not directed specifically at you but to those who hold such discriminatory attitudes. If a person is not pretending to be anything but a humble devotee trying to improve themselves through the process of ceto darpanam marjanam that is all we need be concerned with. And we should give all the time they want to take to do this. They can stay in the shower for as long as they want. It is up to Krsna only to decide when they "should" be clean. > >In other words does everyone have to be "clean" before they get into your > shower of >salvation? > > Why "my shower of salvation"? My heart is chunk of coal. Again, not directed at only you, Prabhu. But please reconsider the question anyway. > >It seems I remember Krsna saying that four kinds of devotees approach Him > and that >they are ALL mahatmas. Some approach Him only for money or > relief from misery and >don't do any "advanced" devotional practices at > all. He says they are all dear to >Him. Are they not dear to you? > > That is Krsna's perfect magnanimity. I am quite an opposite character. Who > is dear to me? That I don't know. But neither do I think that Krsna is > wrong to accept all four kinds of His devotees as dear. And what to speak > of neophyte devotees, even the demons are dear to Krsna, aren't they? He doesn't say that in context to the above reference from Bg. In fact his statement is quite the opposite I think. Devotees are saved, demons are killed by Him. >Yet > *we* are supposed to neglect them. Similarly, as you know, if we want to > become still more dear to Krsna, then we must dedicate our lives to > helping others to approach Him--right? Yes, through friendliness and positive support. Encouraging the chanting of the names of God (Krsna, Allah, Christ, etc.) is fully sufficient to help others, no matter what religion or geographical location, these neophyte devotees (all of us) may be found. > >I do not live up to so many standards of my guru and my role models like > Sri Arjuna >and Yudhistira. I truly want to but I am having a difficult > time with this material >energy. I am hoping somehow or other to continue > to take shelter of the holy names >for as long as it takes to clean up my > act. Shall I be banished until I am cleansed >by some other method because > you will not allow me to take part in devotional >service? > > Prabhu, I'm totally bewildered as to why you are asking me such questions, > based on those 4 lines (at the top of this page) which I wrote. Don't take it personally. > >Would you banish all of the devotee prostitutes who lived in Krsna's city > of Dvaraka >because they were not serving a husband? This is meant only as > an extreme example > >and is not meant to reflect on our fine devotee matajis who are certainly > not >prostitutes (not that there is anything wrong with that) > Same reply, prabhu. There's no question of me disagreeing with Krsna's > program for anyone--be they rapists, prostitutes, murders, or > paramahamsas. Nevertheless, neither would I dare to banish the > commentaries on the horrible social conditions of Kali-yuga made by > Krsna's dearmost devotee Srila Prabhhupada. I don't think you were left alone in charge as the acarya or savior of everyone in the material world. Give others the books and let them read about the commentaries from the pure devotee. Encourage them. Leave the fire and brimstone out of it. > Personally, I have no problem > accepting both of these statements of Srila Prabhhupada's: > > 1) The prostitutes of Dvaraka were pure devotees of the Lord. > 2) Woman without husband means prostitute. You see, there you go again. Write us an example of another way which you could write the above which is more positive and uplifting. Some women without husbands are definitely NOT prostitutes and you know that. Srila Prabhupada surely did not call his many single women disciples prostitutes did he? No, he encouraged them to chant Hare Krsna so that the Lord would do the needful for those women in His own time frame. > Others may wince or waffle. I won't. Others may fear what the so-called > respectable academicians will think. I don't. Others may be embarrased if > grilled by those seeking to weaken their faith. I'm not. Proud rascal that > I have always been, I feel quite proud to repeat the words of our beloved > founder-acarya, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. So proud you are. Does it really feel right, Prabhu? Hari-kirtan is so much more powerful than all of our pride. > "One who understands and appreciates the disciplic succession is certainly > advanced, and we should always be very careful to give full respect to > those who have so carefully handled this Divine Fruit of transcendental > knowledge before us. Even a slight change will spoil it. That is why I > have always been so careful to give you only those things which I have > heard from my Guru Maharaja." (Letter to: Satsvarupa/Hamsaduta, August > 1967) > > ys, > guru-krsna das And he did it in such a nice way that even low-life rascals like me took it up even though I was stubbornly attached to sense gratification and still am. Hari! Hari! Janesvara dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 > >> On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: > > >> I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of > >> the guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his > >> during an earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and > >> significantly distinguishes from a later portion. >Encouraging each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient. To emphasize "strict" >following coming from anyone who is not strictly following themselves is hypocritical >and will never be taken well by others. It is certainly not positive reinforcement. >Leave "strict following" enforcement to the guru, and directly between the guru and his >disciple. I humbly disagree, prabhu. That excerpt above is part of a philosophical discussion, not a case of me giving hypocritical instructions to anyone in particular. Nor do I agree that encourgaing each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient. If that were sufficient, then why do disciples attend mangala-arati daily, hear Srimad-Bhagavatam daily, offer daily guru-puja to SP, etc.? Do you mean to say that we shouldn't encourage each other to do these things? And may I ask why you repeatedly encourage the GBC to establish Varnasrama Colleges in every ISKCON center, if "encouraging each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient"? >I don't think a lot of talk about who is following strictly and who is not following >strictly need be discussed. If a person is a devotee of God, he or she is a mahatma and >deserves positive input no matter if they are at the beginning stages where they will >be committing many faulty acts. They are headed in the right direction. If they are >even doing a tiny bit of devotional service in any way, and humbly not pretending to be >something they are not, we should keep our mouth shut unless we are going to say >something friendly to them and go on about our own personal business of self >realization. I repeat that that excerpt of mine above was part of a philosophical discussion. No one was telling anyone else what to do. No meek and humble devotees were being harassed for not instantly coming to the topmost standards, etc. >>>And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be >>>?burned on a cross or something? > >> There is not one feminist that I know of who is an obstacle to my >> spiritual progress--but obstacles to their own or others' spiritual >> progress they may well be. >Lets mind our own business. Keep our mouths shut, keep to ourselves and keeping working >hard. Leave the business of others strictly following or being obstacles to Krsna, guru >and the other devotee's heart. I'm sorry, prabhu, I must say that 1) you asked me a question, and 2) I answered it. Now you tell me to keep my mouth shut. Well, generally I do keep my mouth shut when I'm typing replies to cyber-questions (except sometimes when I yawn). And again, it is not a matter of me telling anyone else what to do. I gave a general answer to your question. Please find a philosophical fault with it, if you will, rather than extrapolate and infer that I am impertinently assuming the role of someone else's guru--which I am not. >And we should give all the time they want to take to do this. They can stay >in the shower for as long as they want. It is up to Krsna only to decide when they >"should" be clean. Srila Prabhupada told us that we should finish up our business in this very lifetime. And as for Krsna deciding, He has already made his decision clear that He wants us back home, has He not? Why should we keep Him waiting? >> That is Krsna's perfect magnanimity. I am quite an opposite character. Who >> is dear to me? That I don't know. But neither do I think that Krsna is >> wrong to accept all four kinds of His devotees as dear. And what to speak >> of neophyte devotees, even the demons are dear to Krsna, aren't they? >He doesn't say that in context to the above reference from Bg. In fact his statement is >quite the opposite I think. Devotees are saved, demons are killed by Him. But we weren't discussing Bhagavad-gita Chapter 7. Again, I simply answered your question, prabhu. And even though demons are killed by Krsna, they, being His eternal part and parcels, are of course dear to Him. >> Same reply, prabhu. There's no question of me disagreeing with Krsna's >> program for anyone--be they rapists, prostitutes, murders, or >> paramahamsas. Nevertheless, neither would I dare to banish the >> commentaries on the horrible social conditions of Kali-yuga made by >> Krsna's dearmost devotee Srila Prabhhupada. >I don't think you were left alone in charge as the acarya or savior of everyone in the >material world. Give others the books and let them read about the commentaries from the >pure devotee. Encourage them. Leave the fire and brimstone out of it. What "fire and brimstone"? And what is this about being "left alone in charge as the acarya or savior of everyone in the material world?" I don't know about others, prabhu, but I've never very much appreciated being teased. Pray tell, exactly ***who are you preaching to***??? >> Personally, I have no problem >> accepting both of these statements of Srila Prabhhupada's: >> >> 1) The prostitutes of Dvaraka were pure devotees of the Lord. >> 2) Woman without husband means prostitute. >You see, there you go again. Yes, there I ago again answering *your* questions. You were the first to mention the prostitutes of Dwaraka, not I. >Some women without husbands are definitely NOT prostitutes and you know that. Srila >Prabhupada surely did not call his many single women disciples prostitutes did he? No, prabhu; nor have I. I've simply repeated Srila Prabhhupada's own words. When asked what varna an unmarried woman would be classified in, he said: "If you classify, then they are prostitute." You should know this better than I, prabhu, since you have compiled SP's instructions on va-d. >> Others may wince or waffle. I won't. Others may fear what the so-called >> respectable academicians will think. I don't. Others may be embarrased if >> grilled by those seeking to weaken their faith. I'm not. Proud rascal that >> I have always been, I feel quite proud to repeat the words of our beloved >> founder-acarya, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. >So proud you are. Does it really feel right, Prabhu? Hari-kirtan is so much more >powerful than all of our pride. Well, now please kindly practice what you preach, prabhu. You see how fallen I am, so please encourage me to chant Hari-kirtan (which includes repeating the transcendental words from the lotus mouth of Srila Prabhupada) and to take as much time as I want to become purified. And I wonder: Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? ys, gkd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 > >> On 09 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote: > > >> I gave the example to illustrate the principle: to follow the order of > >> the guru, as opposed to following some particular behavior of his > >> during an earlier portion of his life which he himself clearly and > >> significantly distinguishes from a later portion. >Encouraging each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient. To emphasize "strict" >following coming from anyone who is not strictly following themselves is hypocritical >and will never be taken well by others. It is certainly not positive reinforcement. >Leave "strict following" enforcement to the guru, and directly between the guru and his >disciple. I humbly disagree, prabhu. That excerpt above is part of a philosophical discussion, not a case of me giving hypocritical instructions to anyone in particular. Nor do I agree that encourgaing each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient. If that were sufficient, then why do disciples attend mangala-arati daily, hear Srimad-Bhagavatam daily, offer daily guru-puja to SP, etc.? Do you mean to say that we shouldn't encourage each other to do these things? And may I ask why you repeatedly encourage the GBC to establish Varnasrama Colleges in every ISKCON center, if "encouraging each other to chant Hare Krsna is sufficient"? >I don't think a lot of talk about who is following strictly and who is not following >strictly need be discussed. If a person is a devotee of God, he or she is a mahatma and >deserves positive input no matter if they are at the beginning stages where they will >be committing many faulty acts. They are headed in the right direction. If they are >even doing a tiny bit of devotional service in any way, and humbly not pretending to be >something they are not, we should keep our mouth shut unless we are going to say >something friendly to them and go on about our own personal business of self >realization. I repeat that that excerpt of mine above was part of a philosophical discussion. No one was telling anyone else what to do. No meek and humble devotees were being harassed for not instantly coming to the topmost standards, etc. >>>And all these women who are "feminists" in your estimation, shall they be >>>?burned on a cross or something? > >> There is not one feminist that I know of who is an obstacle to my >> spiritual progress--but obstacles to their own or others' spiritual >> progress they may well be. >Lets mind our own business. Keep our mouths shut, keep to ourselves and keeping working >hard. Leave the business of others strictly following or being obstacles to Krsna, guru >and the other devotee's heart. I'm sorry, prabhu, I must say that 1) you asked me a question, and 2) I answered it. Now you tell me to keep my mouth shut. Well, generally I do keep my mouth shut when I'm typing replies to cyber-questions (except sometimes when I yawn). And again, it is not a matter of me telling anyone else what to do. I gave a general answer to your question. Please find a philosophical fault with it, if you will, rather than extrapolate and infer that I am impertinently assuming the role of someone else's guru--which I am not. >And we should give all the time they want to take to do this. They can stay >in the shower for as long as they want. It is up to Krsna only to decide when they >"should" be clean. Srila Prabhupada told us that we should finish up our business in this very lifetime. And as for Krsna deciding, He has already made his decision clear that He wants us back home, has He not? Why should we keep Him waiting? >> That is Krsna's perfect magnanimity. I am quite an opposite character. Who >> is dear to me? That I don't know. But neither do I think that Krsna is >> wrong to accept all four kinds of His devotees as dear. And what to speak >> of neophyte devotees, even the demons are dear to Krsna, aren't they? >He doesn't say that in context to the above reference from Bg. In fact his statement is >quite the opposite I think. Devotees are saved, demons are killed by Him. But we weren't discussing Bhagavad-gita Chapter 7. Again, I simply answered your question, prabhu. And even though demons are killed by Krsna, they, being His eternal part and parcels, are of course dear to Him. >> Same reply, prabhu. There's no question of me disagreeing with Krsna's >> program for anyone--be they rapists, prostitutes, murders, or >> paramahamsas. Nevertheless, neither would I dare to banish the >> commentaries on the horrible social conditions of Kali-yuga made by >> Krsna's dearmost devotee Srila Prabhhupada. >I don't think you were left alone in charge as the acarya or savior of everyone in the >material world. Give others the books and let them read about the commentaries from the >pure devotee. Encourage them. Leave the fire and brimstone out of it. What "fire and brimstone"? And what is this about being "left alone in charge as the acarya or savior of everyone in the material world?" I don't know about others, prabhu, but I've never very much appreciated being teased. Pray tell, exactly ***who are you preaching to***??? >> Personally, I have no problem >> accepting both of these statements of Srila Prabhhupada's: >> >> 1) The prostitutes of Dvaraka were pure devotees of the Lord. >> 2) Woman without husband means prostitute. >You see, there you go again. Yes, there I ago again answering *your* questions. You were the first to mention the prostitutes of Dwaraka, not I. >Some women without husbands are definitely NOT prostitutes and you know that. Srila >Prabhupada surely did not call his many single women disciples prostitutes did he? No, prabhu; nor have I. I've simply repeated Srila Prabhhupada's own words. When asked what varna an unmarried woman would be classified in, he said: "If you classify, then they are prostitute." You should know this better than I, prabhu, since you have compiled SP's instructions on va-d. >> Others may wince or waffle. I won't. Others may fear what the so-called >> respectable academicians will think. I don't. Others may be embarrased if >> grilled by those seeking to weaken their faith. I'm not. Proud rascal that >> I have always been, I feel quite proud to repeat the words of our beloved >> founder-acarya, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. >So proud you are. Does it really feel right, Prabhu? Hari-kirtan is so much more >powerful than all of our pride. Well, now please kindly practice what you preach, prabhu. You see how fallen I am, so please encourage me to chant Hari-kirtan (which includes repeating the transcendental words from the lotus mouth of Srila Prabhupada) and to take as much time as I want to become purified. And I wonder: Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? ys, gkd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 > wonder: Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud > to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? > Yes, Jesus is God. I agree. That's the only way to escape from the born again Christians. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 > wonder: Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud > to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? > Yes, Jesus is God. I agree. That's the only way to escape from the born again Christians. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 On 11 Dec 1999, Sraddha dd wrote: > > wonder: Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud > > to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? > > > Yes, Jesus is God. I agree. That's the only way to escape from the born > again Christians. > Ys. Sraddha dd guru-mukha-padma vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ar na koriho mane asa .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 1999 Report Share Posted December 11, 1999 On 11 Dec 1999, Sraddha dd wrote: > > wonder: Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud > > to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? > > > Yes, Jesus is God. I agree. That's the only way to escape from the born > again Christians. > Ys. Sraddha dd guru-mukha-padma vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ar na koriho mane asa .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 > Pray tell, exactly ***who are you preaching to***??? A wall it seems. It has all fallen on deaf ears. Such is my potency. > Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud > to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? I ask only that you take the same care as Srila Prabhupada in who and how he directed his statements. Can you do it with the same compassion? My feeling is that we should reserve our criticisms for those who pose themselves as leaders but who are not; not those who do not pose themselves as anything but humble devotees trying to gradually advance. Your method seems to be to TELL people to take on more and more strict standards instead of letting them ASK when they would like to add more things to their spiritual life. It is only valuable if it is purely voluntary. Otherwise it is only pretentious and we know what pretentious leaders have done to the movement. My point that we only need to encourage others to chant Hare Krsna is not to negate so many other wonderful Vedic cultural practices, especially varnasrama-dharma, but to DEMAND strict brahminical practices of those whose varna has not even been ascertained first is impractical. Varnasrama-dharma develops a crude man into a pure devotee of the Lord gradually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 > Pray tell, exactly ***who are you preaching to***??? A wall it seems. It has all fallen on deaf ears. Such is my potency. > Are *you* feeling right to criticize a granddisciple who is proud > to glorify SP by citing his direct statements? I ask only that you take the same care as Srila Prabhupada in who and how he directed his statements. Can you do it with the same compassion? My feeling is that we should reserve our criticisms for those who pose themselves as leaders but who are not; not those who do not pose themselves as anything but humble devotees trying to gradually advance. Your method seems to be to TELL people to take on more and more strict standards instead of letting them ASK when they would like to add more things to their spiritual life. It is only valuable if it is purely voluntary. Otherwise it is only pretentious and we know what pretentious leaders have done to the movement. My point that we only need to encourage others to chant Hare Krsna is not to negate so many other wonderful Vedic cultural practices, especially varnasrama-dharma, but to DEMAND strict brahminical practices of those whose varna has not even been ascertained first is impractical. Varnasrama-dharma develops a crude man into a pure devotee of the Lord gradually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 On 11 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote: > > My point that we only need to encourage others to chant Hare Krsna is not to negate so many other wonderful Vedic cultural practices, especially varnasrama-dharma, but to DEMAND strict brahminical practices of those whose varna has not even been ascertained first is impractical. > > I suspect that if our so-called brahmanas spent their energy focusing on their own spiritual advancement, that in and of itself will go miles to properly inspire the rest of society. Otherwise, there is a tendency to start sounding like caricatures of the ol' brahman and the prostitute story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 1999 Report Share Posted December 12, 1999 On 11 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote: > > My point that we only need to encourage others to chant Hare Krsna is not to negate so many other wonderful Vedic cultural practices, especially varnasrama-dharma, but to DEMAND strict brahminical practices of those whose varna has not even been ascertained first is impractical. > > I suspect that if our so-called brahmanas spent their energy focusing on their own spiritual advancement, that in and of itself will go miles to properly inspire the rest of society. Otherwise, there is a tendency to start sounding like caricatures of the ol' brahman and the prostitute story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 1999 Report Share Posted December 16, 1999 Here's a relevent quote I just happened across (12/2/68, an LA Gita lecture, on 7.1): "So this is Krsna consciousness. Try to understand Krsna consciousness. Simply by practicing this, some way or other, you become attached to Krsna. Some way. Yena tena prakarena, any way. Just like if you love somebody, any way, you try to get it... It is not very difficult. We know the tactics. Even an animal, an animal, he knows how to get his things tactfully. The struggle for existence means that everyone is trying to get his objective. So many tactfully. So you also try, instead of after this material will-o-the-wisp, you some way tactfully try to capture Krsna. That will make your life successful. Some way. Mayy as... yena tena prakarena mana krsne nivesayet sarve vidhi-nisedhah syur etayor eva kinkarah Now, there are so many in Krsna consciousness..., this process, there are so many. I am just introducing one after another, little by little, but those who are practicing this Krsna consciousness in India, there are so many rules and regulations. Somebody says that Swamiji is very conservative. He has got so many rules and regulations, but I have not introduced one percent. One percent. Because it is not possible to introduce all those rules and regulations in your country. My policy is following the footstep of Rupa Gosvami. He says that somehow or other, let them become first of all attached to Krsna. So this is the yoga. Krsna is explaining, mayy asakta-manah partha. So try to be attached to Krsna. And why you shall not be attached to Krsna? So many nice things in Krsna consciousness? We have got arts, we have painting, we have got dancing, we have got music, we have got first-class food, we have got first-class dress, first-class health, everything first class. It is only the foolish rascal that hell not be attached to these first-class things. Everything. And it is easy at the same time. What is the reason that one should not be attached to this process? The reason is that hes a first-class rascal. Thats all. I tell you frankly. Let anyone come, argue with me whether hes not a first-class rascal by not accepting Krsna consciousness. Ill prove it. So dont be first-class rascal. Become first-class intelligent man." MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 1999 Report Share Posted December 16, 1999 Here's a relevent quote I just happened across (12/2/68, an LA Gita lecture, on 7.1): "So this is Krsna consciousness. Try to understand Krsna consciousness. Simply by practicing this, some way or other, you become attached to Krsna. Some way. Yena tena prakarena, any way. Just like if you love somebody, any way, you try to get it... It is not very difficult. We know the tactics. Even an animal, an animal, he knows how to get his things tactfully. The struggle for existence means that everyone is trying to get his objective. So many tactfully. So you also try, instead of after this material will-o-the-wisp, you some way tactfully try to capture Krsna. That will make your life successful. Some way. Mayy as... yena tena prakarena mana krsne nivesayet sarve vidhi-nisedhah syur etayor eva kinkarah Now, there are so many in Krsna consciousness..., this process, there are so many. I am just introducing one after another, little by little, but those who are practicing this Krsna consciousness in India, there are so many rules and regulations. Somebody says that Swamiji is very conservative. He has got so many rules and regulations, but I have not introduced one percent. One percent. Because it is not possible to introduce all those rules and regulations in your country. My policy is following the footstep of Rupa Gosvami. He says that somehow or other, let them become first of all attached to Krsna. So this is the yoga. Krsna is explaining, mayy asakta-manah partha. So try to be attached to Krsna. And why you shall not be attached to Krsna? So many nice things in Krsna consciousness? We have got arts, we have painting, we have got dancing, we have got music, we have got first-class food, we have got first-class dress, first-class health, everything first class. It is only the foolish rascal that hell not be attached to these first-class things. Everything. And it is easy at the same time. What is the reason that one should not be attached to this process? The reason is that hes a first-class rascal. Thats all. I tell you frankly. Let anyone come, argue with me whether hes not a first-class rascal by not accepting Krsna consciousness. Ill prove it. So dont be first-class rascal. Become first-class intelligent man." MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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