What is varna and how does it relate to us?

December 9, 1999

Sraddha Mataji, with all due respect, I suggest you visit this web site

http://www.ghqd.org and read some of the papers posted there. One of the

papers is entitled "Vaisnavism and Social Responisibility." Here is the

Table of Contents.

Forward

Introduction

Section 1: The ISKCON Cultural Revolution

1.1 Culture

1.2 Vedic Culture

1.3 ISKCON and the Revival of Vedic Culture

1.4 Hindu Culture Means Vedic Culture

1.5 Gradual Improvements

1.5.1 In the Beginning

1.5.2 Stricter Policies for Sannyasa and Brahminical Initiations

1.5.3 Gurukula

1.5.4 Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila Chapter 7

1.6 Devotees Must Become Ideal Representatives of this Culture

1.6.1 GBC Men and Temple Presidents

1.7 The Arguments Against Vedic Culture

1.7.1 "Vedic Culture is anachronistic"

1.7.2 "It will create adverse public opinion of ISKCON."

1.7.3 "It will impede our movement's preaching efforts."

1.7.4 "It will keep intelligent men and women away."

1.7.5 "It is irrelevant because everyone is a sudra in Kali-yuga"

Section 2: Vaisnavas and the Principles of Varnasrama-dharma

2.1 What are Prescribed Duties?

2.1.1 Routine Prescribed Duties

2.1.2 Prescribed Duties in Times of Emergency: apad dharma

2.2 Prescribed Duties Must Be Performed

2.2.1 Ordained by Krsna

2.2.2 Attainment of Liberation

2.2.3 Establish Social Standards

2.2.3.1 The Liberated Soul

2.2.3.2 King Janaka and the Mahajanas

2.2.3.3 Arjuna

2.2.3.4 Lord Krsna

2.2.3.5 Lord Rsabhadeva

2.2.3.6 Lord Rama

2.2.3.7 Prthu Maharaja

2.2.3.8 Lord Caitanya

2.2.3.9 Bhaktivinoda Thakura: Bhaktyaloka

2.3 The Lessons of Bhagavad-gita

2.3.1 Krsna's First Lesson to Arjuna

2.3.2 Krsna's Second Lesson to Arjuna

2.3.3 Krsna's Final Lesson to Arjuna

2.3.4 Why Arjuna Should act

2.3.5 How Arjuna Should act

2.4 The Divine and Demoniac Natures and Prescribed Duties

2.4.1 The Divine Nature

2.4.1.1 The Mode of Goodness

2.4.2 The Demoniac Nature

2.4.2.1 The Mode of Passion

2.4.2.2 The Mode of Ignorance

2.5 Prescribed Duties and Devotional Service

2.6 Avoid Discharging the Duties of Others

2.7 The Acaryas' Practical Application of These Principles

2.8 Prescribed Duties as Vedic Injunctions

2.8.1 Manu-samhita

2.8.2 Sruti, Smrti, Puranadi

2.9 The Art of Work: yoga karmasu kausalam

2.10 Leaders Must Preserve and Protect Prescribed Duties

2.11 Prescribed Duties as Etiquette: Maryada

2.12 Prescribed Duties as Morality

Section 3: Prabhupada on Gender Equality

3.1 Equal Rights

3.1.1 His Female Disciples

3.1.2 Different Duties for Men and Women

3.1.3 Women Should Stay at Home

3.1.4 Real Equality

3.2 Women Leaders

3.2.1 Executive Heads of States

3.2.2 GBCs

3.2.3 Temple Presidents

3.2.4 Internal Managers

3.2.5 Diksa-gurus

3.3 Intelligence

3.3.1 Brain Size

3.3.2 Great Women and Less Intelligence

3.3.3 Prabhupada's Female Disciples and Less Intelligence

3.4 Independence and Freedom - Manu-samhita

3.4.1 Independent Women Become Prostitutes

3.4.2 Women as Slaves

3.4.3 Results in Varna-sankara

3.5 Social Status

3.5.1 Papa-yoni

3.5.2 Brahmana on Spiritual Platform Only

3.6 Asrama: The Three Stages of Woman's Life

3.6.1 Brahmacarini is Artificial

3.6.2 Sannyasa

3.7 One of ISKCON's Faults: Women's Presence in the Temples

3.8 Preaching Among the Women Class

3.9 Modern Girls' Education

3.9.1 Varnasrama College

3.9.2 Gurukula

3.9.3 Graduate Theological Union

3.10 Female Inferiority

3.11 Preaching Opportunities in ISKCON

3.11.1 Giving Class

3.11.2 Leading Kirtan

3.12 Subservience to Husband

3.12.1 The Duties of Chaste Women

3.12.2 The Husband's Desire Supersedes the Guru's

Conclusion

Appendices:

A1 Change Prabhupada's Books

A2 Society as a Complex Whole

A3 "I just have a big problem trusting persons [like Prabhupada]."

A4 Quotes From Mahabharata

A5 Draupadi Instructs Satyabhama About a Wife's Duties

December 9, 1999

> Sraddha Mataji, with all due respect, I suggest you visit this web site

> http://www.ghqd.org and read some of the papers posted there. One of the

> papers is entitled "Vaisnavism and Social Responisibility." Here is the

> Table of Contents.

>

I didn't ask you to send me papers to read. I wanted that you answer my

questions. Do you know this things, or are you just able to quote different

papers?

So:

1. What is varna?

2. What is a material body?

3. What is the difference between a male material body and a female

material body?

4. What is a soul?

5. How do the above things relate to each other?

And if you don't know it, then what are you talking about?

The truth is always the truth, and one has to realize it.

Ys. Sraddha dd

December 11, 1999

> > Prabhupada gave an incontrovertible "No!" to women attending VA College.

> > Why? Because women are like sudras and are never to be trained as

> > external managers. They should simply assist their husbands:

> >

> > 1. They are not fit for such education and/or

> > 2. They are reluctant to receive such education

> >

OKAY, HERE WE GO! SINCE YOU DONT KNOW IT, I WILL EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.

1. What is varna?

Varna is the quality of one's work (activities). Varna is a combination

of guna and karma. Karma is activity and guna is quality. All the activities

in material world are carried out by the material nature. There are three

modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. There are

activities in the mode of goodness (brahminical), activities in the mode of

passion (ksatriya), activities in the mix modes of passion and ignorance

(vaisya) and activities in the mode of ignorance (sudra).

"The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself

the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes

of material nature." BG 3.27

"Four divisions of the social system are there according to quality and

work. That is very natural in this world. Everyone is accepted on quality

and work." Mayapur, march 16, 1976

"Similarly, according to the quality of the work there must be a class of

less intelligent men. They cannot independently work. That is sudra."

"That is one of the items of KCM, to reastablish the institution of

varna and asrama. Not by birth, but by qualification."

2. What is a material body?

Material body is a mashine made of material energy. Gross body (earth,

water, fire, air and ether) plus subtle body (mind, intelligence and false

ego). Material nature is constituted of the three modes. All material bodies

are under the influence of the modes and made according to different

combinations of modes.

3. What is the difference between a male material body and a female

material body?

There is no difference between male and female bodies. Both are made of

gross and subtle body and under the influence of the modes of material

nature. What is very different is male and female natures.

4. What is a soul?

Soul is the spiritual energy (marginal), part and parcel of Krishna.

The nature of soul is love.

5. How do the above thingss relate to each other?

Spirit soul encaged within material body, thinks himself to be the doer of

activities, while one who realy knows, knows that all activities are carried

out by nature. There are three modes of nature and all activities are

colored by those modes. Color of certain activity defines varna. Both, the

souls in male bodies and the souls in female bodies, think themselves to be

the doer of activities. The truth is that soul is just desiring and the

activities are carried out by the modes of material nature under the

superintendence of the Supersoul.

Both male and female bodies performe activites. Both male and female

bodies act under the influence of modes of nature. The modes are coloring

the activities of the bodies, and that colored activity is varna.

Both men and women have varna. Therefore it is adviced that one gets

married with a person of the same varna. Sometimes there is a mixture of

varnas, like in the pratiloma and anuloma marriages. Pratiloma marriage is a

marriage between woman of higher varna and man of lower varna. Anuloma

marriage is a marriage between a man of higher varna and woman of lower

varna. Mixt marriages are not welcomed, but anuloma is accepted, while

pratiloma is considered degraded.

So, in the guisse of varnasrama, you are actually promoting the caste

system. Varnasrama is Krishnas system. The caste system is made by humans

who want to exploit others. In the caste system people are classified

according to their birth. In your system people are classified according to

marriage. But in Krishnas system people are classified according to quality

of their work, guna and karma.

In Kali-yuga everybody is born like sudra, both men and women. But one can

elevate oneself to a higher position, by cultivating the mode of goodness

and performing activities of higher varnas.

Here comes the HOT one:

"As long as one is very much attached to material sense gratification, the

worship of the demigods or the worship of one's husband is recomended."

SB. 6.18.35

Jay, prabhus! Not just that you are propagating the caste system, but

looks like that you would like to have kind of women very much attached to

sense gratification.

Ys. Sraddha dd

December 11, 1999

> 3. What is the difference between a male material body and a female

>material body?

> There is no difference between male and female bodies.

Could you show me where Prabhupada confirms that there is no difference. As

far as my experience goes, male and female bodies are very different.

> Both male and female bodies performe activites.

Their prescribed duties, or occupational duties are described in sastra and

by Srila Prabhupada to be different.

>Both male and female

>bodies act under the influence of modes of nature. The modes are coloring

>the activities of the bodies, and that colored activity is varna.

> Both men and women have varna.

Varna is based on one's quality and work (guna and karma). As previously

noted, a girl becomes brahmana not by being born in a brahmana family or

simply by having the guna similar to a brahmana, but by marrying a husband

who is a brahmana. If a chaste woman has a different guna from her husband,

she adapts herself to his qualities and helps him in his work. As

Prabhupada said, what is the use of making a woman a brahmana if she

marries someone who is not a brahmana? In the example of Devahuti and

Kardama Muni, Devahuti became a brahmani by marrying Kardama but she had

not been previously accustomed to his brahminical lifestyle. Cyavana's wife

Sukanya adapted to the temperament of her husband who was much older than

her, Gandhari put on a blindfold so that she would not think herself

greater than her husband, Kunti followed her sons and Sita followed Rama to

the forest instead of staying behind in a palace...why? Why didn't they

serve the Lord in a way and place they felt most comfortable?

>Therefore it is adviced that one gets

>married with a person of the same varna. Sometimes there is a mixture of

>varnas, like in the pratiloma and anuloma marriages. Pratiloma marriage is a

>marriage between woman of higher varna and man of lower varna. Anuloma

>marriage is a marriage between a man of higher varna and woman of lower

>varna. Mixt marriages are not welcomed, but anuloma is accepted, while

>pratiloma is considered degraded.

This type of varna refers to guna or qualities. It does not mean

occupation. Also, Prabhupada writes that these considerations don't really

matter if both the boy and girl are devotees:

"Vedic astrology reveals whether one has been born in the vipra-varna,

ksatriya-varna, vaisya-varna or sudra-varna, according to the three

qualities of material nature. This must be examined because a marriage

between a boy of the vipra-varna and a girl of the sudra-varna is

incompatible; married life would be miserable for both husband and wife.

Consequently a boy should marry a girl of the same category. Of course,

this is trai-gunya, a material calculation according to the Vedas, but if

the boy and girl are devotees there need be no such considerations. A

devotee is transcendental, and therefore in a marriage between devotees,

the boy and girl form a very happy combination." (SB Purport 6.2.26)

> In Kali-yuga everybody is born like sudra, both men and women. But one can

>elevate oneself to a higher position, by cultivating the mode of goodness

>and performing activities of higher varnas.

Can you provide sastric support showing how a woman should perform the work

of a brahmana or ksatriya independently, even if her husband is not

designated as such by his varna.

> Here comes the HOT one:

>

> "As long as one is very much attached to material sense gratification, the

>worship of the demigods or the worship of one's husband is recomended."

>SB. 6.18.35

Why not quote more relevant parts of that section, which is 6.18.34 btw,

not 35--

"One who is not in direct touch with the Supreme Lord and cannot conceive

of the exalted position of the Lord is sometimes advised to worship the

demigods as various parts of the Lord. If women, who are usually very much

attached to their husbands, worship their husbands as representatives of

Väsudeva, the women benefit, just as Ajämila benefited by calling for

Näräyaëa, his son. Ajämila was concerned with his son, but because of his

attachment to the name of Näräyaëa, he attained salvation simply by

chanting that name. In India a husband is still called pati-guru, the

husband spiritual master. If husband and wife are attached to one another

for advancement in Krsna consciousness, their relationship of cooperation

is very effective for such advancement. Although the names of Indra and

Agni are sometimes uttered in the Vedic mantras (indräya svähä, agnaye

svähä), the Vedic sacrifices are actually performed for the satisfaction of

Lord Visnu. As long as one is very much attached to material sense

gratification, the worship of the demigods or the worship of one's husband

is recommended."

Prabhupada wrote to his disciples that they SHOULD serve their devotee

husbands as representatives of the Supreme Lord Krsna:

"Another item is, you are married wife, so in that position you should

serve your husband nicely always, being attentive to his needs, and in this

way, because he is always absorbed in serving Krishna, by serving your

husband you will also get Krishna, through him. He is your spiritual

master, but he must be responsible for giving you all spiritual help,

teaching you as he advances his own knowledge and realization. That is the

vedic system: The wife becomes a devotee of her husband, the husband

becomes a devotee of Krishna; the wife serves her husband faithfully, the

husband protects his wife by giving her spiritual guidance. So you should

simply do whatever your husband instructs you to do, however he may require

your assistance. Of course, the nature of woman is to be attached to her

husband and family, so our system is to minimize this attachment by making

the ultimate goal of our activity the pleasure of Krishna. Just try to

please Krishna always, and no material circumstances will be able to cause

you any discomfort." (Letter to: Saucarya, 23 October, 1972 72-10-23)

Is Prabhupada's instruction encouraging women to be attached to sense

gratification??

Ys, Sdd

December 11, 1999