The so-called Sports (including soccer) are GAMBLING

December 18, 1999

>

>from the very beginning, they are trained to refrain from the following four

>principles of degradation: 1) sex life outside marriage, 2) intoxication, 3)

>meat eating, and 4) gambling and IDLE SPORTS*. (Letter to: Archbishop of

>Canterbury, Los Angeles 1969)

Thanks, now it's clear.

Madhava Gosh Prabhu,

1) no betting on any teams

2) keep those boys moving - don't let them be idle.

OK?

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

December 18, 1999

>

> Now onw can argue that soccer is not a so-called sport but a real sport. But

> according to the other quote posted earlier Prabhupada says soccer is a

> materialistic sport and we can safely conclude that materialistic sports are

> so-called sports whereas sporting with Krsna is the real sport.

>

> Your servant,

> Nayana-ranjana das

Yes, I am meditating on Supersoul in my opponent's heart everytime I play.

December 18, 1999

"COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote:

> [Text 2866760 from COM]

>

> >

> >from the very beginning, they are trained to refrain from the following four

> >principles of degradation: 1) sex life outside marriage, 2) intoxication, 3)

> >meat eating, and 4) gambling and IDLE SPORTS*. (Letter to: Archbishop of

> >Canterbury, Los Angeles 1969)

>

> Thanks, now it's clear.

>

> Madhava Gosh Prabhu,

>

> 1) no betting on any teams

> 2) keep those boys moving - don't let them be idle.

>

> OK?

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

I believe that an example of idle sport would be debating. as the siksa guru

of

the GHQ, Kirtanananda, so amply provided us with an example. He was on the

Columbia University debating team, so had good training in the sport, and has

set a high standard for use of debating techniques, that has been well

emulated

by his followers. They (GHQers) have really taken it to a high level, and are

excellent debators. They are so good at it, that, in my opinion, they are

all masterdebators.

Hence, for myself, I prefer to stick to the active sport of soccer, and

reserve my mental energy for positive solutions to real problems that are

useable

in real time. Building theoretical constructs of idealized societies in

cyberspace is, IMHO, simply an idle sport. I believe the Spanish have some

phrase for it that translates roughly as "Building castles in the clouds".

December 18, 1999

On 18 Dec 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

> Yes, I am meditating on Supersoul in my opponent's heart everytime I play.

>

I hope so.

Or perhaps did you actually mean to write "Supersole" ("best brand athletic

footwear the world over")?

December 18, 1999

> > Now onw can argue that soccer is not a so-called sport but a real sport.

> > But according to the other quote posted earlier Prabhupada says soccer

> > is a materialistic sport and we can safely conclude that materialistic

> > sports are so-called sports whereas sporting with Krsna is the real

> > sport.

> >

> > Your servant,

> > Nayana-ranjana das

>

> Yes, I am meditating on Supersoul in my opponent's heart everytime I

> play.

here comes a practical example - last year during his preaching tour in

russia Bhaktivaibhava Swami used to play soccer. this was confirmed by his

personal servant, and he told me that it was a lot of fun.

my opinion is that we should lead a balanced life, and that means there has

to be some physical excercise. soccer, especially if played with devotees,

is not the worst choice. somebody who is a pure devotee of course doesn't

need such things. those who are not can become, but it's a gradual process.

ys bh. didzis

December 18, 1999

In text 2867920 from COM Bhakta Didzis wrote:

> here comes a practical example - last year during his preaching tour in

> russia Bhaktivaibhava Swami used to play soccer. this was confirmed by

his

> personal servant, and he told me that it was a lot of fun.

>From a reliable source I learned that Hrdayananda Goswami plays a game

called "Acarya-ball" which involves taking out all the furniture of a room

and then hitting a ball against the walls with the hand, similar to

racketball. When I asked my source about the time spent playing, he said

"Hours." Who wants to play "Prabhu-ball"?

YS RK Mex

December 18, 1999

> >

> >from the very beginning, they are trained to refrain from the following

> >four principles of degradation: 1) sex life outside marriage, 2)

> >intoxication, 3) meat eating, and 4) gambling and IDLE SPORTS*. (Letter

> >to: Archbishop of Canterbury, Los Angeles 1969)

>

> Thanks, now it's clear.

>

> Madhava Gosh Prabhu,

>

> 1) no betting on any teams

> 2) keep those boys moving - don't let them be idle.

>

The most interesting is even the first one:

1) sex life outside marriage

HEY! Were did that one come from?

Ys. Sraddha dd

December 18, 1999

At 23:50 +0100 12/18/1999, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

>

> The most interesting is even the first one:

>

> 1) sex life outside marriage

>

> HEY! Were did that one come from?

>

> Ys. Sraddha dd

>

> from the very beginning, they are trained to refrain from the following

> four principles of degradation: 1) sex life outside marriage, 2)

> intoxication, 3) meat eating, and 4) gambling and IDLE SPORTS*. (Letter

> to: Archbishop of Canterbury, Los Angeles 1969)

I'm assuming this letter is in folio. Does anyone have the complete letter?

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

December 19, 1999

>

> > Yes, I am meditating on Supersoul in my opponent's heart everytime I play.

> >

>

> I hope so.

>

> Or perhaps did you actually mean to write "Supersole" ("best brand athletic

> footwear the world over")?

LOL Good one.

December 19, 1999

>

> my opinion is that we should lead a balanced life, and that means there has

> to be some physical excercise. soccer, especially if played with devotees,

> is not the worst choice. somebody who is a pure devotee of course doesn't

> need such things. those who are not can become, but it's a gradual process.

>

> ys bh. didzis

If excercise were a drug, it would be consiidered a breakthrough. Of course,

a good rocking kirtan has the side benefit of being good excercise.

My own experience is that when I coach kids in the local recreational league,

I

usually have a few devotee kids I bring along with me. Hearing the karmis

cheering them on "Go Tulasi" "Kick it Tilok" is an experience that is ever

fresh for me.

I have heard that wrestling and swimming are vaisnava sports. One thing is,

that they don't need a lot of paraphanelia. Soccer does at a minimum require a

ball, but of all the organised team sports, it requires the least.

December 19, 1999

> :

>

> > So after reading all of the following, why did Abhay Charan De play soccer?

> > Why would his Vaisnava father "allow" him to play?

>

> Well, I gave an answer to that already. Srila Prabhupada told us to follow,

> not imitate, the acaryas.

Ooh, good point. Actually, the quote is

Those who are neophytes or even a little progressed in devotional service

should

not try to imitate the maha-bhagavata. Rather, they should only follow in his

footsteps. The word anukara means "imitating," and anusara means "trying to

follow

in the footsteps." We should not try to imitate the activities of a

maha-bhagavata

or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Madhya 17.31

The point being don't try to artificially act like the great devotees, but

follow

the path that eventually lead them to the high platform they were on. For

example, desiring to be a sannyasa and have a lot of followers may (or, of

course, may not) be simple imitation of Srila Prabhupada, whereas getting

married, raising children, providing for a family, and experiencing the

range

of normal experiences may (or may not) be following in the footsteps.

I personally know I am not on the platform that Srila Prabhupada showed to us

during the times we usually think of him, which is to say, after he was 62

and

took sanyasa, so for me to try to live like he did would be imitation. I have

to

look back at his earlier life and try to follow his footsteps. And we know

those

footsteps trod the soccer field.

>

> Maybe it's best to ask Srila Prabhupada directly why he has told his

disciples

> and also written in his books that a devotee doesn't engage in mundane

sports.

Actually, I found no hits on "mundane sport*" in VedaBase.

December 19, 1999

> If excercise were a drug, it would be consiidered a breakthrough. Of

> course, a good rocking kirtan has the side benefit of being good

> excercise.

>

> My own experience is that when I coach kids in the local recreational

> league, I usually have a few devotee kids I bring along with me. Hearing

> the karmis cheering them on "Go Tulasi" "Kick it Tilok" is an experience

> that is ever fresh for me.

>

> I have heard that wrestling and swimming are vaisnava sports. One thing

> is, that they don't need a lot of paraphanelia. Soccer does at a minimum

> require a ball, but of all the organised team sports, it requires the

> least.

I suppose I could raise a huge stink if I were to bring up the sport of

hunting, huh?

December 19, 1999

>

> >

> > from the very beginning, they are trained to refrain from the following

> > four principles of degradation: 1) sex life outside marriage, 2)

> > intoxication, 3) meat eating, and 4) gambling and IDLE SPORTS*. (Letter

> > to: Archbishop of Canterbury, Los Angeles 1969)

>

> I'm assuming this letter is in folio. Does anyone have the complete letter?

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

Letter to: Archbishop of Canterbury

--

Los Angeles

1969

69-00-00

His Divine Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury

London, England

Your Holiness,

Please accept my respectful and humble obeisances. I beg to introduce myself as

an Indian monk, following the Vedic principles of religious life. At present, I

am in the renounced order of sannyasa (age 73) and preaching God Consciousness

all over the world. I came to America in 1965, and since then, I have many

followers belonging to both Christian and Jewish faiths. Thus far I have

established 17 centers for Krishna Conscious temples throughout the United

States, Canada, Germany, London, and France.

My mission is in the line of Lord Caitanya, Who advented Himself 482 years ago

in India, and Who preached God consciousness all over the country. His mission

is to revive God consciousness throughout the world, on the basis of

Srimad-Bhagavatam (Science of God). The basic principle of Srimad-Bhagavatam is

that any religious faith which helps a man to develop Love of God, without any

other motive, is transcendental religion. And the easiest process for this age

is to chant the Holy Names of God. From this definition of religion as we find

in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the criterion test of religion is how it helps people

to develop their dormant Love of God. This love is not artificially invoked,

but it is aroused by association with devotees of the Lord and by hearing from

the authorized scriptures.

The human form of life is especially meant for this purpose of reviving our God

consciousness because the better development of consciousness is found only in

the human body. Animal propensities are found both in animal life and human

life, and unfortunately, people are nowadays more concerned with the principles

of sense gratification, or the animalistic part of life. Thus, the world is

gradually declining in God consciousness. This tendency is very much

deteriorating, and because Your Holiness is the Head of a great religious sect,

I would be very pleased to meet with you, and perhaps chalk out some program

for helping to alleviate the present Godless situation.

The human society should not be allowed to continue in its present path at the

risk of decreasing truthfulness, hygienic principles, forgiveness, and

mercifulness. Without proper instruction on these principles, the human society

is gradually degrading in the matter of religiosity and justice. At present,

"Might makes right" is gradually taking the place of morality and justice.

There is practically no more family life, and the union of man and woman is

gradually degrading to the standard of mere sexuality. Our Krishna

Consciousness Movement is meant for overhauling the whole situation. We are

creating man of character, and we are training our disciples to become lovers

of God, or Krishna. From the very beginning, they are trained to refrain from

the following four principles of degradation: 1) sex life outside marriage, 2)

intoxication, 3) meat eating, and 4) gambling and idle sports. Our teaching are

based on the authorized movement of Lord Caitanya, the teaching of the

Bhagavad-gita as the beginning, and the teaching of Srimad-Bhagavatam as the

graduate study.

I do not wish to prolong the body of this note further, but if you think that a

meeting with you will be beneficial for the human society at large, I shall be

very much pleased if You Holiness will grant me an interview. Thanking you in

anticipation for an early reply.

Yours in the service of the Lord.

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Archbishop of Canterbury -- Los Angeles 1969

December 19, 1999

>

> You're probably right. After all, Nero fiddled while Rome burned, so I guess

> we can play soccer while the rest of the world goes to hell.

>

> &gt

You're probably right. After all, Nero fiddled while Rome burned, so I guess

we discuss the idealized socities of previous yugas while the rest of the world

goes to hell.

December 19, 1999

>

> I suppose I could raise a huge stink if I were to bring up the sport of

> hunting, huh?

That would be limited to those of ksatriya persuasion. Soccer is

transcendental

to varnic designation.

December 19, 1999

In a message dated 12/18/1999 9:20:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Guru-Krsna.HDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

> You're probably right. After all, Nero fiddled while Rome burned, so I guess

> we can play soccer while the rest of the world goes to hell.

>

Aren't you getting a bit defensive and carried away here? Most of these guys

discussing soccer in a positive light are fathers and if you have kids, you

can't possibly be advocating that parents spend every free moment studying

books and not take some time out for the kids. Every ashram has different

requirements. We will have no kids that want to stay devotees if we all

become dry, intellectual twigs. An expert devotee parent can turn every

situation (even a soccer game or a rafting trip or whatever) into a learning

experience for a child. Maybe moderation is the key not critical

condemnation. yhs, Kanti dasi

December 19, 1999

> Soccer is

> transcendental to varnic designation.

True. :-)

December 20, 1999

"Prabhu-ball" must be bhogus, because according to Srila Prabhupada's example,

acaryas can only kick a ball with their feet as in soccer/foriegn football,

unless of course they are the goalie -- which might be why Prabhupada played

goal -- so maybe "Prabhu-ball" isn't bhogus after all!

Oh, it is all just so confusing! What does the Gaudiya Math have to say about

this?

On 18 Dec 1999, Ramon Estrada wrote:

> In text 2867920 from COM Bhakta Didzis wrote:

>

> > here comes a practical example - last year during his preaching tour in

> > russia Bhaktivaibhava Swami used to play soccer. this was confirmed by

> his

> > personal servant, and he told me that it was a lot of fun.

>

> From a reliable source I learned that Hrdayananda Goswami plays a game

> called "Acarya-ball" which involves taking out all the furniture of a room

> and then hitting a ball against the walls with the hand, similar to

> racketball. When I asked my source about the time spent playing, he said

> "Hours." Who wants to play "Prabhu-ball"?

>

> YS RK Mex

>

..

December 20, 1999

>

> Since this thread is also running on the Varnasrama Development conference,

> I'll honestly say that I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

> adamant to defend a game like soccer *as opposed to* discussing the many

> other ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

> direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma.

Why do you assume it is opposition to? The either/or paradigm so frequently

impose may not be a limitation to some of us, therefore soccer can be seen as

a

tool for establishing VAD. Another tool in the tool box, certainly not meant

to

be the only tool.

>

> Srila Prabhupada said that we should train ksatriyas to fight and kill. So

> we *could* be training our children to spar with various weapons, the

> martial arts, etc., instead of bringing them to the soccer fields. After

> all, it's well understood that the main so-called "thrill" of sports is the

> sense of contesting in a battle with the hope for victory. Well, one day it

> might again be a *real* battle to defend Krsna's temple, His devotees, Their

> Lordships (as it has been in the past). Srila Prabhupada told HH Satsavarupa

> M that the day would come when we would be "fired upon." Will our

> mighty-legged soccer champions be brave enough to fight back? I hope so. But

> if not, will we then regret that we didn't train our young, strong, and

> robust offspring in this way? Will us aging "heros" be capable to defend

> even ourselves, what to speak of others?

In Kali yuga, age does little to diminish the ability to squeeze a trigger.

Huge

bodily strengths to draw bows is not so relevant. I can't speak for other

soccer

players, but this one isn't at all worried about defending himself for a long

time

to come.

As for training ksatriyas, I have a son who played American football, and

went in

buddy system with a teammate into the Marine Corp. The conditioning from

sports

and the teamwork concepts developed are very transferrable to ksatriya arts.

He is

a Marine Corp Reserve Military policeman, studying Business Administration in

college. Until the devotees get there idealized training off the ground, I

guess

we'll have to settle for that..

I can see Krsna speaking through you , though. I never would have thought to

defend soccer as an excellent training device for aspiring ksatriyas. Much

preferable to american football, as it is not as dependent on paraphanelia,

which

goes more with the renunciation and portable of Vaisnava culture.

Physical conditioning and small unit tactics are intregal parts of any

military

training. what better way to develop these characteristics in young devotees

than

through soccer. Acceptance of a guru type figure in the form of the caoch is

good

training for all varnas. Formal training in martial arts (also generally

considered a sport) is certainly excellent, and would be good cross training

for

any soccer team. Balance and movement are essential in martial arts, and the

combination with soccer which also develops those characteristics would have

benefits for both disciplines. I routinely teach the Horse Stance on the first

day

of practice when I am coaching youngsters, as a matter of fact.

Where soccer would have an advantage over martial arts, is that it requires

the

extended use fo techniques over a long period of time in a fluid and

unpredictable

matter, much like an actual battle, and unlike the more formal routinues of

a

martial arts tournament.

I used to work in NYC, and once while out walking (a Srila Prabhupada approved

form of excercise) I fell in with a karate club that was playing soccer in the

street, which they did routinuely as part of there training. They were

friendly,

and I started playing with them. Unfortunately, my skills were not on their

level, and an errant pass hit a parked motorcycle, which was unfortunately

one of

a long string parked by a motorcycle club. they immediately became offended

and

came over in a belligerent fashion. Although I had just met the karate club,

they

immediately took defensive positions, and the two groups squared off.

The cyclers immediately demanded we vacate the area. It was obvious they were

looking to fight, so we pretty much owned them. The younger members of the

club

were also obviously itching to put some of their training into action, but the

older leaders confered briefly and after paying honors to the cyclers, we

left. I

apologised to them for my miscue and causing trouble, but they laughed it off,

and didn't take it all serious. There was no doubt in my mind, that the

fight,

fought merely hand to had, would have been resolved in our favor. Of course,

in

a street fight, weapons coming into play can't be discounted. The karate

guys

showed that they had their senses more under control, as it certainly wasn't

fear

that made them chose to leave.

But I digress. IMHO, soccer is excellent traing for ksatriyas and should be

immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of the VA collwege

cirriculum. Thank you, Guru Krsna, for bringing this to mind. A blessing to

you.

>

December 21, 1999

At 01:47 PM 12/20/99 -0500, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan -

USA) wrote:

>[Text 2873167 from COM]

>

>> Since this thread is also running on the Varnasrama Development conference,

>> I'll honestly say that I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

>> adamant to defend a game like soccer *as opposed to* discussing the many

>> other ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

>> direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma.

>

>Why do you assume it is opposition to? The either/or paradigm so frequently

>impose may not be a limitation to some of us, therefore soccer can be seen as

>a tool for establishing VAD. Another tool in the tool box, certainly not

meant to be the only tool.

OK. But this is what I'm saying: Srila Prabhupada told us to establish vad,

and he has given volumes and volumes of instructions toward that end. So

what I said above is "I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

adamant to defend a game like soccer [instead of] discussing the many other

ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma." Please

note the phrase "direct devotional service," *as opposed to* indirect or

"maybe-it-is-maybe-it-isn't-who-knows?-but-if-it-feels-good-we-can-do-it-in-

the-name-of-some-varna" devotional service.

>> Will our mighty-legged soccer champions be brave enough to fight back? I

hope so.

>> But if not, will we then regret that we didn't train our young, strong, and

>> robust offspring in this way? Will us aging "heros" be capable to defend

even

>> ourselves, what to speak of others?

>

>In Kali yuga, age does little to diminish the ability to squeeze a trigger.

>Huge bodily strengths to draw bows is not so relevant.

Please prabhu, you make it sound as easy as pointing and clicking a mouse.

And that's exactly what our modern-day Western youth are so brainwashed into

thinking: that they're great heroes if they can win the video game gun

battle, or whatever.

Fighting with guns instead of bows and arrows is still not the business of

sudras, vaisyas, brahamanas. We're not talking about target practice,

here--we're talking of battle, which of course may well also mean

hand-to-hand combat, sword-fighting, etc., etc.

>I can't speak for other soccer players, but this one isn't at all worried

about >defending himself for a long time to come.

Good to hear that we have some Grandfather-Bhisma-types in ISKCON!

>As for training ksatriyas, I have a son who played American football, and

went in

>buddy system with a teammate into the Marine Corp. The conditioning from

sports

>and the teamwork concepts developed are very transferrable to ksatriya arts.

That's good, but there's still a big difference between transferrable skills

and dirrect skills. Arjuna was so intent to practice military arts that he

practiced at night. He didn't play soccer or football to "keep in shape" for

battle.

>I can see Krsna speaking through you , though. I never would have thought to

>defend soccer as an excellent training device for aspiring ksatriyas. Much

>preferable to american football, as it is not as dependent on paraphanelia,

>which goes more with the renunciation and portable of Vaisnava culture.

You have the right to your perspective, of course, prabhu. But you know the

saying, "If you want to learn to play soccer, play soccer." Not that we

shoot pool (to developthe skill of propelling a ball into a designated

space) so as to become better soccer players. Similarly, if we want to train

ksatriyas, then we have to train ksatriyas--which means training them

directly (why indirectly? Life is too short) in the martial arts.

>Physical conditioning and small unit tactics are intregal parts of any

>military training. what better way to develop these characteristics in

young >devotees than through soccer.

Sounds like a good advertisment for a soccer camp But seriously, I've

already proposed what seems to me to be a better way.

>Acceptance of a guru type figure in the form of the caoch is good training

for all >varnas.

We realize that so many Western things are simplyh perverted reflections of

the Vedic or Aryan. So here in the West we have our imitation gurus and

ksatriyas, our materialistic music and cinema, etc. etc.--our every

perverted reflection of the superior same thing as found originally in Krsna

conscious culture. Therefore, why should we be satisfied with a "guru type

figure" rather than directly a bona fide *guru*?

>Where soccer would have an advantage over martial arts, is that it requires

>the extended use fo techniques over a long period of time in a fluid and

>unpredictable matter, much like an actual battle

It's good training for sudras, being a leg-centered discipline. (Sudras are

the legs of society, right?) It's good training for sudras who would like to

earn their living by becoming soccer slaves of some commercial sports

enterprise. I humbly submit that such "playing" right into the hands of the

modern capitalistic and atheistic money machine will not help ISKCON to

establish vad or even become self-independent from the big-time atheist

controllers of the present world.

>I used to work in NYC, and once while out walking (a Srila Prabhupada

approved

>form of excercise)

"Walking" ki jaya!

>But I digress. IMHO, soccer is excellent traing for ksatriyas and should be

>immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of the VA collwege

>cirriculum.

I wish I could agree with you at least once, prabhu, but still not as yet,

it seems.

I humbly submit that soccer is excellent training for future soccer slaves

of this "nasty Western civilization," whereas the *specific* instructions

given by Srila Prabhupada are the "excellent training for ksatriyas and

[that] should be immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of

the VA college cirriculum."

>Thank you, Guru Krsna, for bringing this to mind.

Daso 'smi, prabhu.

>A blessing to you.

Was that a fully guaranteed, irrevocable blessing?

--gkdas

December 21, 1999

At 20:15 -0500 12/20/1999, COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) wrote:

>"I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

>adamant to defend a game like soccer [instead of] discussing the many other

>ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

>direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma."

Oh now I get it: It's an *either - or* situation. That means the

*real* reason we have not yet established VAD in ISKCON is because

everyone has been too preoccupied wiht playing soccer. No wonder

you're upset!

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

December 21, 1999

In a message dated 12/20/1999 3:41:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

> But I digress. IMHO, soccer is excellent traing for ksatriyas and should be

> immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of the VA collwege

> cirriculum. Thank you, Guru Krsna, for bringing this to mind. A

blessing

> to

> you.

>

Many sound reasons to institute soccer for boys in spite of the naysayers

..... but I guess if I bring up girls playing soccer it will really send the

soccer defeatists over the edge. ;-) I have found personally that in the

current absence of an established VAD society, being adept at sports in many

ways protects girls. Girls who are not confident or accomplished are subject

to the most debilitating peer pressure. We should not be afraid to have

strong women in our society. Strong, convinced and determined women do not

have a problem taking a secondary role in a family with a qualified man. It

is only emotional weakness and lack of qualification that spurs a man to

minimize women and to try to keep them weak and helpless. A qualified,

confident man ( trained in soccer no doubt) would not exhibit such petty

qualities. yhs, Kanti dasi

December 21, 1999

At 05:49 PM 12/20/99 -0800, COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley -

USA) wrote:

>At 20:15 -0500 12/20/1999, COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)

wrote:

>>"I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

>>adamant to defend a game like soccer [instead of] discussing the many other

>>ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

>>direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma."

>

>Oh now I get it: It's an *either - or* situation.

No, Mataji. I'm sorry, but once again you *don't* quite get it. "It's" not

an either-or situation. "It's" a humble opinion of *one* insignificant

so-called member of ISKCON--and nothing more.

>That means the *real* reason we have not yet established VAD in ISKCON is

>because everyone has been too preoccupied wiht playing soccer.

And what follows "That means" is your statement, not mine. Please consider

this one practical point explained by Srila Prabhupada: "Interpretation is

necessary when the meaning is not clear. Otherwise no interpretation required."

As far as I'm concerned, the meaning of my statement above is quite clear

and doesn't at all need to be interpreted.

>No wonder you're upset!

Thanks for another free cyber-telepsychoanalysis, Mataji, but may I suggest

that you first practice on shorter distances first--because so far it

appears that the Berkely-to-Alachua stretch jams your readings, thus

yielding highly inaccurate results.

December 21, 1999

> Please

> note the phrase "direct devotional service," *as opposed to* indirect or

> "maybe-it-is-maybe-it-isn't-who-knows?-but-if-it-feels-good-we-can-do-it-i

> n- the-name-of-some-varna" devotional service.

I can´t avoid to post this quote from a SP lecture I translated today. It´s

about "direct" and "indirect" DS.

Los Angeles, 29-11-1968, Bg.13-17:

Nandarani: When householder women raise their children in Krsna

consciousness, this seems to be an indirect service for Krsna. Should they

try to serve Him more directly by, you know, maybe cooking in the temple or

being, you know, something like this, more directly, or is raising children

and just having the household function, is that enough service? Is that

enough service?

Prabhupada: Yes, the thing is we should be Krsna conscious. Just like

electrification. Touching electricity by one wire, another joining another,

another wire, if the touch is there factual, then the electricity is

everywhere. Similarly if our Krsna consciousness is rightly connected, then

there is no question of direct or indirect. Because absolute world there is

no difference. As soon as it is touched with the direct connection... That

is called disciplic succession. Because the connection is coming down one

after another, so if we touch here, the spiritual master who is connected by

the same way, then the electric connection is there. There is no question of

direct or indirect. Evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Simply we

have to see whether the connection is disconnected. If the connection is

there, tight, then the electricity come without fail. So in our conditioned

stage there will be so many doubts, so many implication. But the same thing

as I gave you example, that don't be very much hasty to receive the result

immediately.

In the lecture, SP was speaking about happiness in DS. "If there is no

happiness", I paraphrase, "you are not practizing rightly". So if you don´t

find happiness in playing soccer, that means you are not rightly connected

with parampara.

Ys

Bhagavata-Purana Dasa.

December 21, 1999