A swami's advise on milk

[Guest guest]

> Maharaja, I am very sorry that my posting: “A swamis’ advice on milk” has

> appeared on Prabhupada disciples’ forum. In fact, it was meant to be

> private; absolutely not to be addressed to you. The first lines say it

> quite clearly: “Some of you may not have access to Prabhupada's disciples

> conference, but here is what I read today […]” But by maya’s trick -or

> Krsna?- it ended on Prabhupada’s disciple forum. That unfortunate mistake

> being made, I understand that a regular devotee may have felt offended by

> my exclamation: (Can't believe that he answered him that!) But I am a bit

> astonished by your reply to me.

>

> I paste here the letter I sent by accident on Prabhupada’s disciples

> forum: (And will go on with my answer.)

>

> Some of you may not have access to Prabhupada's disciples conference, but

> here what I read today. The exchanges talk by themselves.

>

> Dear Vaisnavas,

> […] I have to confront in debate some vegetarians who deny the use of milk

> in human diet..

> They have some good arguments. I need good reasoning arguments on the

> virtues of the milk based on sastra and modern science. Can anyone out

> there help please?

> --Krsna baladeva

>

> Trivikrama Swami answered:

> The main reason we offer milk products to Krsna is that He likes them.

> This is not a question of debate and is easy to understand as we can also

> experience that this prasadam is delicious.

> Ys TS

>

> Me:

> (Can't believe that he answered him that!) […]

>

> And then Maharaja addressed me on the forum this reply:

> You can't believe I answered in that way because it is hard for you to

> believe that Krsna is really a person who is going to eat the food we

> offer to Him. But is true He does, and He likes milk products soooo much

> that He personally take care of the cows. Perhaps you have heard that His

> another name is Gopal.

> End of letter

>

> Maharaja, Krsna Baladeva was in a situation where he needed some

> information. You are perfectly aware that there are heavy groups out there

> who are promoting all kind of nonsense about milk, and Krsna Baladeva was

> confronted with one of them. You see, let's say for the sake of argument,

> that I don't understand that Krsna eats milk sweets, but Krsna Baladeva

> does.

>

> I may not know about Krsna that “His another name is Gopal” but Krsna

> Baladeva (and any Prabhupada’s disciple on Com) knows this; he used to

> keep cows for the pleasure of Gopal. In my first reply to Krsna Baladeva,

> I already mentioned that jokingly: “But how come a cowboy like you doesn't

> know these arguments?” So, for you to remind me with such insistence does

> not help me to appreciate your qualities.

>

> For devotees like myself, who you judge like having a hard time to accept

> Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead -and also the karmis who

> approach us with their doubts, like these pro-vegans-, would certainly

> feel more enthused over the idea of a personal God, if we made an attempt

> to answer their questions accordingly. Of course, “that Krsna likes milk”

> is a beautiful explanation, but I just find it strange that you felt the

> need to remind a senior devotee about it; especially by stressing that:

> “This is not a question of debate.”

>

> I am astonished, that you and some other devotees have reacted so strongly

> regarding a remark which carries by itself no offensive statement.

>

> Is this incident a reminder for the devotees not to criticize the absolute

> position in which our leaders are situated? Should we understand by this

> that our society is bent to forbid its members the right to express their

> disillusions? Do you really think that a society, which is so sensitive to

> criticism, is a healthy society?

>

> However, Maharaja, I think that better than arguments and hammering

> poetry, pro-vegans and ignorant devotees like myself (your Holiness

> verdict), will be more open to the personal aspect of Godhead if devotees

> like you -swami, guru and GBC-, would, on top of an excellent explanation,

> radiate friendship and love. The rank and file devotees are thirsty for

> such behavior. Please, Maharaja, consider my plea. This is an excellent

> opportunity for a devotee of Krsna to show what more than thirty-five

> years of devotional service can produce. You are a leader! ! Yad yad

> acarati sresthas.

>

> Akhilesvara dasa

 

 

Dear Akhilesvara Prabhu

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Here is the last letter I sent to this conference on this subject dated Feb

14th:

 

"I conceed that if I had it to do over I would have certainly changed the

word "you" to "us" in my first sentence. Also I have to admit that it was

something that I just threw out off the top of my head. No offense

intended."

 

I am satisfied to leave it like this. If you actually accept me as a leader

then please follow my example and let this topic rest.

 

Your servant

Trivikram Swami

 

Ys TS

[Guest guest]

>Sri Rama prabhu wrote:

>'I also can't believe that someone had the audacity to criticize Trivikrama

>Maharaja's original answer. After all, he is a sannyasi, the natural

>spiritual head of society.

 

I can't believe that someone would write the sentences above in 2001. For

all the talk of reform, ISKCON has apparently gotten nowhere. As long as

we demand that its members accept - without question - anything that is

said by someone in sannyasa clothes and a danda - we're doomed!

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Sri Rama prabhu wrote:

'I also can't believe that someone had the audacity to criticize Trivikrama

Maharaja's original answer. After all, he is a sannyasi, the natural

spiritual head of society. What kind of answer was to be expected from him,

if not a spiritually-oriented one?

Perhaps the question should have stipulated, "No answers by sannyasis please

or others with their heads in clouds of Srila Prabhupada teachings! We are

only interested in material knowledge. Never mind that Srila Prabhupada told

us the reason we are vegetarian is because Krishna only accepts vegetarian

food." (I know that wasn't the intention of the original question; I'm just

making a point.)

Of course, there are many material reasons one should be a vegetarian; and

some of us can mention them as encouragements to the faithless. But there

are just as many such arguments against vegetarianism too. The only argument

that cannot be counteracted is that Krishna likes milk and other vegetarian

foods. That is unless, of course, one simply doesn't care what God desires.

 

Akhilesvara prabhu answered:

> Is that the same Srirama das who is in charge of the GBC restructuration?

> If ISKCON was to remain as it is, I will say that you have a bright future

> in its politics. But times are changing. --Ak

 

Akhiles prabhu, it is not because we want to restruture the GBC that we

have become enemies to all sannyasis. We do not want them to manage ISKCON's

money, properties and members but we are happy when they enliven us with

their spiritual realizations. Some devotees are inclined to science like

Sadaputra prabhu and HH Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Goswami, others are more

concerned to follow in the footsteps of the gopis (simplicity of village

girls, I mean) and they like to recall some devotional answers given by

Srila Prabhupada. What is wrong with that? Do we have to be a scientist to

be respected as a devotee and honoured as such?

 

If you had asked this question to one of the cow-girls in Vrndavan, what do

you think She would have answered you? Do think, prabhu, she would have

quoted Docteur E.Schneider: "Se basant sur de nombreuses espériences,

Schuphan et Lintzel ont mis au point une échelle de valeur des proteines:

celle de la viande se révèle la moins utile. Les protides du lait s'avèrent

précieux, principalement pour la période de croissance. La valeur biologique

la plus grande revient aux albumines des céréales, pommes de terre et

légumes verts." Honestly, I don't think so.

 

Mukunda Goswami, Drutakarma and Bhutatma prabhus have compiled a new

edition, much more complete, of the first book of Adhiraj prabhu. They have

also called this new adaptation "The Higher Taste". Their arguments are much

more sound and based on the last scientific discoveries and rich cultural

background. If you would send me Krsna-Baladev's address in China I could

send him one copy of this book in French. would that be helpful?

 

You can attack the GBCs who are failing to protect ISKCON's cows, I will

support your endeavors 100%, but please do not attack sannyasis who are

simply travelling and repeating Krsna's words, or grhasthas who are serving

the devotees at the roots. They do not deserve your punishing words; that is

only my humble opinion.

 

Please accept my humble obeisances and forgive my offenses.

Your servant,

Krsna-kirtana dasi.

[Guest guest]

At 05:08 PM 2/19/01 -0800, Srirama (das) ACBSP wrote:

> And if you don't

>like his answer, then feel free to ignore it.

 

Thank you for acknowledging that we all have that option - always -

regardless of the kinds of clothes someone is wearing.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

ps I don't know how the texts made their way into the VD conf either.

I just hit reply...

[Guest guest]

>

> >Sri Rama prabhu wrote:

> >'I also can't believe that someone had the audacity to criticize

> >Trivikrama Maharaja's original answer. After all, he is a sannyasi, the

> >natural spiritual head of society.

>

> I can't believe that someone would write the sentences above in 2001. For

> all the talk of reform, ISKCON has apparently gotten nowhere. As long as

> we demand that its members accept - without question - anything that is

> said by someone in sannyasa clothes and a danda - we're doomed!

 

I do agree. I was also surprised after reading Sri Rama Prabhu's statement:

"After all, he is a sannyasi, the natural spiritual head of society." Sorry,

for me this makes no sence after all what happenend in our society *created*

by our "natural" spiritual leaders.

 

I am really surprised....

 

Y.s. Hb dd

[Guest guest]

|

|Hariballabha (dd)

|(Berlin - D)

|RE: A swami's advise on milk

 

|Full text of Sri Rama's text which is commented on below:

-------------------------------

I also can't believe that someone had the audacity to criticize Trivikrama

Maharaja's original answer. After all, he is a sannyasi, the natural spiritual

head of society. What kind of answer was to be expected from him, if not a

spiritually-oriented one?

 

Perhaps the question should have stipulated, "No answers by sannyasis please

or others with their heads in clouds of Srila Prabhupada teachings! We are only

interested in material knowledge. Never mind that Srila Prabhupada told us the

reason we are vegetarian is because Krishna only accepts vegetarian food." (I

know that wasn't the intention of the original question; I'm just making a

point.)

 

Of course, there are many material reasons one should be a vegetarian; and

some of us can mention them as encouragements to the faithless. But there are

just as many such arguments against vegetarianism too. The only argument that

cannot be counteracted is that Krishna likes milk and other vegetarian foods.

That is unless, of course, one simply doesn't care what God desires.

---

 

Madhusudani dasi replied:

 

|> I can't believe that someone would write the sentences above in 2001. For

|> all the talk of reform, ISKCON has apparently gotten nowhere. As long as

|> we demand that its members accept - without question - anything that is

|> said by someone in sannyasa clothes and a danda - we're doomed!

----

 

Hariballabha das added:

 

|I do agree. I was also surprised after reading Sri Rama Prabhu's statement:

|"After all, he is a sannyasi, the natural spiritual head of society." Sorry,

|for me this makes no sence after all what happenend in our society *created*

|by our "natural" spiritual leaders.

|

|I am really surprised....

 

------

 

Sri Rama das replies:

 

It's odd that these comments found their way to the varnashrama dharma

conference. After all, if you start eliminating some varnas and ashramas

because

you don't like things members of those groups have done, past or present, there

is no varnashrama and there never will be. Obviously, I have differences of

opinion with some sannyasis in our movement. But I did not invent the words

that

"sannyasis are the spiritual heads of society." But just because you don't care

for the current batch, doesn't make the principle any less true.

 

I also think I hear an undercurrent suggesting there are no sannyasis worthy

of hearing from. Just because you've lost your faith in sannyasis and feel

their

statements should not automatically be accepted, it does not follow that they

should be automatically rejected either. Trivikrama Swami's answer was

blatantly

correct, virtually mirrored those of Srila Prabhupada, and was appropriate for

a

sannyasi. Now if you think it has become incorrect because you don't approve of

the behavior of some sannyasis, perhaps this has gone to far. And if you don't

like his answer, then feel free to ignore it.

 

To cut to the chase and answer a long-standing doubt, does this statement

apply to Srila Prabhupada also: "As long as we demand that its members accept -

without question - anything that is said by someone in sannyasa clothes and a

danda - we're doomed!"?

 

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

 

[srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

[Guest guest]

On 19 Feb 2001, Srirama das wrote:

 

> Now if you think it has become incorrect because you don't approve of

> the behavior of some sannyasis, perhaps this has gone to far. And if you

don't

> like his answer, then feel free to ignore it.

 

I will rather strongly urge the devotees to speak out as soon as they feel

something is wrong with an authority; leader, guru, or GBC. Too many abuses

have been going on in the name of respect and superiors. In the case we are

talking here, the reaction was disproportionate. You did not feel? Do you

understand, Srirama? We are not talking about his answer; but about his

reaction. He is one of the heads of our society! The bell still don't ring?

You see, I am happy to have discovered this side of you. Really, I am amazed

by so much care the responsible of the Restructuration GBC has in trying to

silence the recalcitrant members of ISKCON. A new bottle for the same content.