Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

Sorry for my late response, I have been very busy the last days.

 

> > If I see an ISKCON guru engaged in something which I read in sastra is

> > the example of a materialistic guru, I do make my own conclusions about

> > it, even if it may be detrimental for my spiritual life.

>

> But so long you do not put your conclusions into the action, I

> suppose you are still not questioning that guru's qualification.

> You keep your conclusions for yourself, thus one is fairly safe

> from possible apparadha. The right way I may think about would

> be to present _doubts_ (not "conclusions") to those who are

> at least on the same level as that particular guru. And let

> them "wash the laundry" (if they find it required).

 

I am not on a personal crusifiction-parade against any of ISKCON's present

gurus. If I had been, you would have known about it. But I have my doubts

about several of them. I have limited faith in GBC, and therefore I don't

bring up my doubts to anyone on a top level. That's how it looks from my

side.

 

> > If I believe that a guru clearly abuses his position, and I see that GBC

> > has been told about it, but does nothing substancial to stop this abuse,

> > then I lose faith in the GBC.

> >

> (hmmm... there might be more opportunities for losing faith in the GBC

> than only the one above mentioned. )

 

You are right!

 

> > And if I see that the GBC is hesitating to take firm action against a

> > guru who I personally am convinced that has been directly or indirectly

> > involved in child abuse, I also lose faith in them.

>

> (ha, what did I just say!)

 

> > > As far as your question "Must we always wait until the guy

> > > actually falls before we discuss this?", well, you can't

> > > have really such clear cut as you are implying it now.

> >

> > I am not sure what you mean by that.

>

> Well, name here some of the present ISCKON gurus and start discussing and

> questioning his qualifications as a guru. The one that you have made your

> conclusions about. Observe the result. (Though the better way would be to

> predict it)

>

> It is simply not our business to do it. As I mentioned already,

> you are objecting the institutionalization a of guru post in ISCKON (so do

> I, btw.), then right away you propose that "we" take the "guru-guy" into

> our hands before he actually falls.

 

That is not what I meant, actually. It is another discussion, and since I

have little time right now, I cannot get into it right now.

 

> > I did not specifially refer to him with my statement. Maybe "guy" was

> > not very proper to use, please excuse me for that.

>

> My position is that the fall down is not a shame, and that we

> simply do not know everything about somebody who used to be

> performing outstanding service for considerable time, and then

> happened to fall. So better to simply avoid the approach "from

> above". The safe way of running.

 

I agree that this is the right approach in the long run. But I am a person

who can get over things also by speaking about them. I hope my spiritual

life survives it.

 

> > I know that there are many who think that these 11 were never actually

> > authorized to initiate by Srila Prabhupada, but that they drew that

> > conclusion themseves.

>

> I was just responding on that to Samba prabhu.

>

> There are also many who think that nobody has ever been

> actually authorized by Prabhupada to initiate. As in the case

> of the "original eleven", there is no explicit evidence that

> Prabhupada authorized anybody.

 

That was what I meant.

 

> > Srila Prabhupada said that he wanted a lot of his

> > disciples to become gurus, but since it is written many places in Srila

> > Prabhupada's books what should be the qualification of a guru, it can be

> > questioned whether it is obvious whether he wanted the "original 11" to

> > initiate own disciples immideately after his departure or not.

> >

>

> Immediately after his departure, or 20 years later, for us will

> still make no difference, since we came to understanding that

> at least 7 of those 11 have never been uttama-adhikaris. So

> how long they would have to wait?

 

I guess that will always be up to each of us to decide, since I (like you)

don't believe that guru / disciple relationships can be institutionalized. I

think that I would have to wait many years to get enough faith in any of the

present ISKCON-gurus to want to take diksa from any of them.

 

> > I am no authority on this, and I wonder what others know about it. Maybe

> > I get killed for even saying such a thing, but I would like to get this

> > clear, if it is possible.

>

> No worry, the "Russians" are not on COM.

 

Armenians, you mean! Thank you for not arranging my assasination :-)

 

Ys

Jatu