Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

On 10 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

> This makes me somewhat confused, because we understand that Guru

> is one, and that they all teach the same thing, siddhanta. So why does it

> appear that Bhaktisiddhanta makes such a strong point, if it is not correct?

 

 

Difficult questions. The answers may become clear to us in the future. Give it

time. I do not know the answer either. But I tend to think that we would have

avoided the questions in the first place if we solely depended upon Srila

Prabhupada's words. This may be a very good example of why Srila Prabhupada

wrote all of his own books as the most current acarya and most previous

acarya's works should be "digested" by Srila Prabhupada first before we try to

understand them.

I feel he included everything in his works which we need to understand Krsna

scientifically and lovingly.

 

 

> > Did he ask us to distribute his books by the millions and millions, but

> > after he left the planet they were useless with out his personal

> > association?

>

> I am not at all saying that they are useless.

 

 

Please excuse my crankiness sometimes. I apologize to you if I was being too

sarcastic. You are not in the least suspect of thinking such things in my

opinion.

 

 

> Far from it they are the law

> books for the next ten thousand years. But even law books require judges to

> interpret, and what qualifications must a judge have to interpret Srila

> Prabhupadas books? I mean it is not as if he has not given us enough, but

> each individual case can be so complex, with its different motivations,

> hidden motivations, time, place, etc, it is impossible to list every

> possibility, so surely that is a strong argument for the need for superior

> living guidance?

 

 

Personally, I would like to see people develop more of a relationship with the

Lord in their heart through heartfelt praying and meditation in order to

understand their guru's teachings. "Please Krsna, help me to understand Srila

Prabhupada's books". The same Lord that spoke to Brahma in the beginning of

time is here with us in our heart as a friend. He will reveal the Truth of the

guru when we have earned it through love - not study.

 

Actually, Srila Prabhupada has said that we have two programs in our

movement - the books, for those who want to learn about God through study and

intelligence (jnana-yogis) and chanting the Holy Names of God (bhakti) for

everyone else. I like doing both personally but sacrificing simple, heartfelt,

loving service (sravanam, kirtanam, etc.) out of a desire to unnecessarily

wrangle with complicated philosophical concepts has generated considerable

mental anguish for me at times in my spiritual development.

 

I do not think we have to get so involved in all of the "different

motivations, hidden motivations, time, place, etc," of particular devotees

approaches to their personal human development. I do not think spiritual life

is meant to be so complicated. It is very simple - it may not be easy, but it

is very simple.

 

We also have to learn patience. Personally, I have no problem thinking in

terms of lifetimes for my chosen path of purification. I am very low,

otherwise I would not be here in this last and miserable yuga which is no

place for a gentleman. It is clearly my own fault that I am suffering from bad

memory, attraction to sense objects, etc. I can deal with that. I am

determined to succeed at this. For others, they might want to at least think

in terms of 40, 50, 60 years of practice before expecting too much

clarification of some of the more complicated philosophical concepts and

purity.

 

 

> Somehow I feel that we are not being fed the full

> conclusions of siddhanta, if we were, then how could we argue over such

> basic points.

 

 

In my opinion, I believe that many of the so-called "advanced devotees" of

ISKCON, at least in the past who I am familiar with (Ramesvara, Kirtanananda,

Harikesha, and many others), intentionally mislead other devotees to believe

that this philosophy is very complicated and only they understand it for some

"special" reason. Like they were given the Divine electric touch of God or

something and only they could understand. Others had to "worship" them in

order to understand. They artificially created a sense of complicated

philosophical issues so that simple, sincere devotees would begin to doubt

themselves and their otherwise peaceful advancement. They "advanced devotees"

may have been well intentioned in the beginning but quickly succumbed to the

most powerful sense object of all - followers.

 

Those of us who were naive fell into the artificial, pretentious practices

they exemplified and began to look at those around us as "lesser" or "higher"

depending on their proximity or favor of the big guns. Friendliness

disappeared quickly. Competition became the daily mental anguish. "Do the

devotees around me consider me advanced?" Hardly a word could be spoken

between devotees without someone arguing that THEY knew what Srila Prabhupada

said about that.

 

This I found very distasteful and quite unlike the friendliness I was used to

in my own family who I was constantly told were maya.

 

 

> We both agree that our top brass have failed miserably to do

> anything about varnasrama, and most of us seem to agree that the movement is

> in a mess, so something must be amiss.

 

This is something different, in my opinion. Varnasrama requires material

qualifications which have been acquired due to a conviction in the follower to

serve the Supreme Lord through his occupational duties. The "top brass" you

speak of do not want this varnasrama-dharma program because they do not know

how to do it and to start it would reveal their "mediocrity" to all around

them. Thus they lose their "edge". If spiritual advancement could be obtained

simply by performing one's prescribed, God-given, natural duty what would make

them "special"?. Now if some of them were true sannyasis they could certainly

be a great example for others to follow varnasrama-dharma, but not all of

them. Most of them should be "renouncing" their "smarta-sannyasa" and taking

up the learning and then teaching of varnasrama-dharma like their spiritual

master instructed them to do over 25 years ago. But then they would be just

like us - low, simple, fallen people desiring to become sincere devotees of

the Lord - Godbrothers and Godsisters.

 

 

 

> Apparently there is a letter of 69-11-16, (I dont know to who) where

> Prabhupada states "Articles written by my Guru Maharaja can be published

> without any hesitation". Maybe someone could check it on folio.

 

 

I love reading SBSST's writings, especially the Harmonist. There are some

fantastic writings. I have truly been very inspired by many of those writings

from him and his father as well. I mean no disrespect to those or any other

acaryas writings - only the motivation behind those who may use them for

ulterior purposes. That can be partially guarded against by keeping Srila

Prabhupada's writings at the forefront because they are so readily accessible

and understandable to everyone.

 

 

> > My opinion is that Srila Prabhupada is fully accessible for all human

> > beings on this planet as a pure devotee and guru through his books for

> > eternal time or as long as his books and lectures are available in their

> > unadulterated versions. He also gives us association with hundreds of

> > other pure devotees in his books, i.e., the mahajanas, goswamis,

> > guru-parampara, etc.

>

> But you don't mean diksa guru right? (I always assumed you were not a ritvik

> proponent)

 

 

Ah, I was wondering when that question would come up. I really do not consider

myself a "ritvik" (officiating priest), I am an aspiring ksatriya.

 

As far as diksa is concerned, if I cannot take diksa from Srila Prabhupada

without his personal, living, breathing presence and personal service and

inquiry/instructions from him, then I, along with many of my respected

Godbrothers, have not yet taken diksa from him. I would have loved that kind

of association with him but he was far too busy writing his books which I

believe he wanted me to read. Diksa will be there when Krsna wants it to be

there. I have obviously not proven my worth yet.

 

 

> You do also mention there that he gives us access to other pure

> devotees, parampara etc. So if the siddhanta does state that we need to HEAR

> from pure devotees, would you reconsider?

 

 

What did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta call the "big mrdanga" again?

 

 

 

> Really prabhu, I have the utmost respect for you, and your position as Srila

> Prabhupadas loving disciple. I just get the sense that we in ISKCON have

> been kept in the dark for so long, and fed that smelly stuff (and I am NOT

> refering to prasadam), that we have missed out on some basic knowledge.

 

 

Your respect is very much appreciated. Really. I get lonely often and I

measure my days joy from my meaningful discussions with very nice devotees

like you.

 

> Our

> movement is breaking apart at the seams, how can that be, if we read the

> same books? In my mind leadership is missing, I mean the real thing, and

> without authoritative pure leadership, which only a mahabhagavata could

> give, how will we ever agree?

 

 

Agree on what? Most I know agree that chanting Hare Krsna will purify

everyone. The movement is not breaking apart because there is a fundamental

misunderstanding of the Harinama philosophy. It is "breaking" apart because

there are a few pretentious people who hold leadership positions because of

the principle of the "cheaters and the cheated". Many devotees are growing up

and maturing into individually strong devotees who are developing a stronger

relationship with Paramatma and thus they can feel more in touch with their

guru without having to show off for everybody around them.

 

Krsna will bring like birds of a feather together again, one day, I am sure.

Such desires are fulfilled by the Lord if they are sincere.

 

 

I have a feeling the "cheaters" and the "cheated" are going to get a big dose

of humble pie very soon via international press coverage of abuse lawsuits.

Sins that were perpetrated in Vrindavana do not go unseen by the Lord, no

matter how pretentious one may be. It could be a very severe reaction.

 

Sorry to ramble on so, Prabhu. Your words are just so inspiring! I hope you

get something out of "reading" mine. ;-)

 

Sincerely,

 

Your friend and servant,

Janesvara dasa