Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

> Certainly. But, would he not "accept" someone who has "approached" him

> through his books which were by far his most important contribution to the

> Krsna consciosness movement? Can't Srila Prabhupada deliver a soul to

> Krsna's lotus feet if that person is living anywhere and happens to read

> one of Srila Prabhupada's books with sincerity? Isn't this why Srila

> Prabhupada wanted us to distribute millions and millions of his books?

 

 

But that is not the process of diksa. That is basicaly a ritvik argument.

And the books are to get everyone on the right path, to accept a spiritual

master.

 

> > Srila Prabhupada did not associate very much with

> > Srila Bhaktisidhanta, but the few instructions he got he served so

> > seriously that the result is amazing. Just one instruction is enough or

> > even one word.

>

>

> Cannot that instruction or one word come from Srila Prabhupada's

> vani/books? Isn't that why we distribute the books?

 

That would be impersonal. Anyone can say, Oh I got the instruction from the

books. Spiritual life means discipline, being disciplined by the guru.

Otherwise we can take shelter of any of the previous acaryas, as they were

also mahabhagavatas.

>

>

> > As for me who came later I can speculate left and right to be accepted

> > by

> > Srila Prabhupada but where is my confirmation?

>

>

>

> What kind of "confirmation" are you looking for? Some people look for

> "recognition" instead of "confirmation". That is not such a good idea.

 

Confirmation is the diksa, alhtough we know that the formality is not

aenough, it is the acceptance in the heart, from both sides.

 

> You, I don't feel, are doing that. Are you not advancing spiritually?

 

Please can you quantify exactly what spiritual advancement is? How does

anyone know they are advancing spiritualy? What are the indicators of

spiritual advancement?

 

Has

> not Srila Prabhupada's books been any assistance to you? We shouldn't

> doubt the potency of Srila Prabhupada - he can accept billions of

> disciples - because Krsna protects His pure devotee. Srila Prabhupada

> accepts the sinful reactions of his disciples but remember, even once

> chanting one Holy Name of the Lord (offenselessly)relieves one of more

> sinful reaction than one can incur in a lifetime. I think Srila Prabhupada

> chants offenselessly and he chants more than one Name a day.

 

But if immediately after chanting he commits sins or offences, he restarts

his path to hell. Once a person begins on the path of spiritual life he

becomes aware of the offences, so then if his chanting is not completely

ofenseless, then he will make more offense than progress. If one disobeys

the orders of the spiritual master, he is committing offense to the holy

name, it is all interconnected. Actualy it is impossible to chant with

complete purity until one is a pure devotee. The process is not just

chanting, it is surrendering, and you can only surrender to a person.

Surrendering to books might look kind of esoteric, but really within those

books are so many contrary instructions. So if you realy on the books only,

you can interpret that they are saying -Go to Narayana Maharahaja, he is a

pure devotee- or go to the Ritviks, they are practising what Srila

Prabhupada wanted. Books are an authority sure, they are living sure, but so

is a guru, you can surrender to a guru, but surrender to a book?

>

>

> > Even the Goswamis being present with the Lord himself approached a

> > personal

> > spiritual master or am I wrong?

>

>

> Obviously, there is absolutely nothing wrong with approaching a personal

> spiritual master as the Goswamis and many others have. But did not the

> Goswamis also "approachnon-livingnon-bodily present" spiritual

> masters through reading their books and teachings?

>

> If both are there, vapu and vani, take full advantage of both. But vani is

> always available and accessible for siksa.

 

Its just that the entire disciplic succesion makes the point that surrender

and service to a person is the only way to PROGRESS.

 

The point is that the very books that Srila Prbhupada wrote, can be used,

and are being used to promote different deviances, and this is becasue

people are inherently different, and often complicated. That is why books

are not enough, because there is no discipline, and anyone can pick and

choose what he wants to accept from them, as we are doing.

 

>

> Another problem, obviously apparent in ISKCON, is approaching someone who

> claims to be a "spiritual master" but does not possess the qualifications.

> I have nothing against my Godbrothers becoming gurus. I have many friends

> in ISKCON whom I consider my guru because they have given me spiritual

> instruction. I have full faith that our Guru Maharaja's program is fully

> capable of developing pure devotees and maha-bhagavata gurus even out of

> low meat-eating humans born into candala families. They will be fully

> qualified to perform diksa ceremonies, in time. The question is when? This

> could take many decades of practice.

 

Thats the point I am making, and I think I am maybe understanding now where

you are coming from. While there appear to be no bonafide gurus, then take

shelter of the books. YES I agree. And the books tell us to find a spiritual

master, so we should pray intently for one. Thats all I am saying.

 

 

These are very, very high

> qualifications we are speaking of. Let's not cheapen them out of an

> impatient desire to take another name so we are recognized as the formal

> member of a religious institution. This will not benefit us.

 

Exactly and that is ISKCON problem right now. Most of HKM's disciple

probably thought he was the real thing, and got horribly let down. There

appears to be a phenomenon in ISKCON where even if a guru says 'I am not a

pure devotee', all his disciples go 'Oh he is SO humble, look at him, he's

such a pure devotee'. They don't want to listen to anyone, even their own

guru, and often the guru accepts this misconception anyway, becasue it makes

for bigger collections.

>

> I was lucky, I happened to "approach" a spiritual master who did not "fall

> down" while he was "present" and while I was his practicing disciple. But,

> please know that my "approach" to him to the point of initiation was fully

> through "non-personalnon-bodily" indirect service and I never asked him

> one single direct question and he never gave me one direct, personal

> instruction. I had the merciful assistance and guidance of my senior

> Godbrothers who acted as my gurus's representative (Ritviks? - officiating

> priests). Cannot anyone do the same now?

 

He is not here to accept them, to SAY yes I acccept. The principle (as I

keep saying) is to let them start spiritual life.

 

It is being stressed a lot nowadays that ours is a siksa line, so if one

does not have access to his guru he can take siska. The fact is that when

the Lord sees a person is crying for pure guidance, he manifests a guru for

that person. It must be then, that many of us are not desiring purely enough

for GENUINE guidance, because if we were, we would get it.

>

> I would be very happy to sponsor someone to Srila Prabhupada for

> acceptance as a disciple similar to the way me and thousands of my

> godbrothers were disciples. In fact, I have been doing that for several

> years for a good friend of mine who is trying to develop his spiritual

> life. My "sponsoring" would be through prayer and service that Srila

> Prabhupada please accept this sincere person the same way I pray and serve

> and offer food to Srila Prabhupada's pictures every morning. Does he not

> hear my prayers anymore now that he is "gone"?

 

This is basicaly ritvik philosophy.